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  • #16
    Woohoo for Nate Salley! I hope he does good. He was one of my favorites at OSU.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by remix 6 View Post
      i think Lewis is taking a lot of negatives. Cant always play the coach. Secondary depends on the front 7. What could Lewis have done wrong? Did he teach Webster/Madison to get burned? 1s a young player..probably somewhat of a bust while the other is 40 yrs old.

      unfair to judge a coach like that.
      He took a natural man guy in Webster, who is best when he can bump and run with a guy and put him back in a zone where he had no chance to keep with guys due to non-godly speed. He's a terrible co-ordinator and is worse with DBs. He took all of the potential guys like Gibril and Webster had and turned it into garbage.

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      • #18
        His play ideas changed from aggressive to soft zone after he left pittsburgh and saw what he had to work with in New York.

        Despite what you want to say.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
          Ummmm, Tim Lewis agressive?


          *bursts out laughing for 20 minutes straight*


          I follow the Xs and Os of the game religiously, and Tim Lewis is arguably the worst defensive coordinator I can recall of the past 10 years or so. Don't even get me started on having CBs play their WR 15 yards deep on 3rd and 3, or having William Joseph cover Brian Westbrook.


          Now as a positional coach, maybe theres hope. But what you said is off on so many levels. Tim Lewis was killed in Pittsburgh for his lack of blitzing. Ask any Pittsburgh fan how they feel about him. Its no coincidence that the Pitt defense became MUCH better once he left. With the same players might I add.


          But like I said, he can't do TOO much harm just as a positional coach. Its not like he's coordinating the defense anymore.



          As for Fox's scheme, you guys should be ok. It doesn't put much emphasis on safety play. As long as you have a good run stopping presence at Safety, youre fine. The corners are a solid trio if Lucas can stay healthy, and the LB core is solid in coverage as well if healthy. Thomas Davis can take care of the TE no problem.

          My main concern would be the dline. Jenkins, lets face it, isn't the same anymore and Rucker is getting older. The pressure from the front 4 could suffer this year. Peppers needs more help from a passrushing standpoint.
          I think A LOT of that speaks to the quality of players on your team. Sam Madison is old and has lost a step and Corey Webster never was a burner to begin with. You want the coach to man up two slow corners against faster quicker wr's. You will routinely watch your D get torched for huge gains.

          I don't know about William Joseph against Westbrook, but I am almost positive that is just a result of a failed zone blitz. You make it sound like Lewis had him manned up against Westbrook. Total misrepresentation from what it sounds like. Lewis still puts Osi, Strahan, and Pierce in positions to make plays bc they are the most talented players on your team, the rest of those guys are positioned to try and mask the mismatches.

          This is actually a very similar situation to Mike Nolan, who has been in charge of the D, making a lot the defensive calls. He was forced to play a good amount of "vanilla" two-deep/three-deep coverages during his first years due to our inability to stop the pass. During our first year with Nolan, many fans were dumbfounded as to why our corners were lining up so far back from the los, until we realized... our corners sucked and Nolan would rather play bend-but-don't-break than get torched for a quick td. To his credit he got much more aggressive when we actually got more talent in coverage.

          Please. Do you really think he would have been around in the NFL for as long as he has if he were that incompetent. The coach has as much to do with your teams short comings as the players and that is true both offensively and defensively.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by no love View Post
            I think A LOT of that speaks to the quality of players on your team. Sam Madison is old and has lost a step and Corey Webster never was a burner to begin with. You want the coach to man up two slow corners against faster quicker wr's. You will routinely watch your D get torched for huge gains.

            I don't know about William Joseph against Westbrook, but I am almost positive that is just a result of a failed zone blitz. You make it sound like Lewis had him manned up against Westbrook. Total misrepresentation from what it sounds like. Lewis still puts Osi, Strahan, and Pierce in positions to make plays bc they are the most talented players on your team, the rest of those guys are positioned to try and mask the mismatches.

            This is actually a very similar situation to Mike Nolan, who has been in charge of the D, making a lot the defensive calls. He was forced to play a good amount of "vanilla" two-deep/three-deep coverages during his first years due to our inability to stop the pass. During our first year with Nolan, many fans were dumbfounded as to why our corners were lining up so far back from the los, until we realized... our corners sucked and Nolan would rather play bend-but-don't-break than get torched for a quick td. To his credit he got much more aggressive when we actually got more talent in coverage.

            Please. Do you really think he would have been around in the NFL for as long as he has if he were that incompetent. The coach has as much to do with your teams short comings as the players and that is true both offensively and defensively.

            Ok, first and foremost. Our CBs are bump and run Man coverage CBs. They had their most success this past season when put in situations where they played bump and run. It was Lewis's prevent/Cover 2 that put them in awkward positions that made them look much much worse than they really were. All you gotta do is look at the Giants games to notice this. We actually had a higher success rate against 3rd and short opposed to 3rd and long. Why? Because of Lewis's zones and lack of blitzing. You just have to watch the games to understand what Im talking about. Its not easy to describe the idiocy of Tim Lewis with words. While they aren't exactly the Eagles CBs, they are not NEARLY as bad as Lewis made them out to be. Don't believe me? Watch this upcoming season for yourself and see if im wrong. In fact bump this exact thread and rub it in my face if im wrong. Im that confident.

            2nd. Willy Joe. My boy. Yes it was a zone blitz. But just because its a zone blitz doesn't mean that it was still not moronic. Would you zone blitz Brian Westbrook like that? Thats like putting a DE on Terrell Owens. Im sorry, but thats just dumb no matter how you slice it. Its not like there was an overload blitz coming. It was a 4 man zb rush. With Willy Joe on Westbrook. I don't see how you can defend a decision like that.

            3rd. He does NOT put Osi, Strahan nor Pierce in positions to succeed. That further illustrates to me you did not watch Giant games (no offense). He ran like I said a Prevent/Cover2. Antonio Pierce is a run thumping MIKE. He does not belong in the deep middle against the TE, or in Man coverage with the TE. That is just moronic. And it was done continuously. He did not help Strahan or Osi because he refused to blitz. Teams doubled them and chipped them all season. Thats also why our DEs got hurt so badly. Teams were aiming for them, and Lewis did nothing to releave the pressure off of them.

            Remember that guy Lavar Arrington? Remember how he was supposed to be used as a rushbacker? Never happened under Lewis until his "breakout" game against Dallas. Unfortunately for him, he got hurt and thus his career was over, but basically all we did the entire season was run prevent and Cover 2 every single play. He called 4-3 Cover 2 against 4 WR sets. He called Cover 2 8 plays in a row against Seattle in the Redzone, thus leading to 28 points in the blink of an eye. Trust me, Im not joking when I say Tim Lewis is the worst DC ive seen in teh past 10 years.

            You will not see any Giants or Pittsburgh fan defend him. Why do you think that is? Its not like we're making this stuff up. And I know the players are at fault too, but unless you watch the games, you don't understand how badly our personnell was managed.
            Last edited by bigbluedefense; 08-07-2007, 08:02 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BlindSite View Post
              His play ideas changed from aggressive to soft zone after he left pittsburgh and saw what he had to work with in New York.

              Despite what you want to say.
              No. He ran the Cover 2/Prevent in Pittsburgh too. Just out of a 3-4 shell instead of the 4-3. He did a little more zone blitzing out of the 3-4, but he did some of that with us too. It was primarily the same scheme.

              Why do you think Pittsburgh fired him? Because he WASNT aggressive. Ask a Steeler's fan if you don't believe me. Tim Lewis is not an agressive coordinator.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by BlindSite View Post
                His play ideas changed from aggressive to soft zone after he left pittsburgh and saw what he had to work with in New York.

                Despite what you want to say.
                he did the oppostie of changing with the players he had around him. despite having good man to man corners, he insisted in putting them in zone, all the time. also, he said Gibril Wilson used his insticints too much and was TOO agressive. me, BBD, and all the other giants fans suffered through whole seasons of watching how bad he was. the players now complain about why he made m2m guys play zone and had wilyjo covering brian westbrook, strahan covering stokely etc etc.
                We ALL bleed scarlet
                New York Giants Super Bowl 46 Champs
                UNITED: I actually attend the college I root for
                Originally posted by PalmerToCJ
                BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                  Ok, first and foremost. Our CBs are bump and run Man coverage CBs. They had their most success this past season when put in situations where they played bump and run. It was Lewis's prevent/Cover 2 that put them in awkward positions that made them look much much worse than they really were. All you gotta do is look at the Giants games to notice this. While they aren't exactly the Eagles CBs, they are not NEARLY as bad as Lewis made them out to be. Don't believe me? Watch this upcoming season for yourself and see if im wrong. In fact bump this exact thread and rub it in my face if im wrong. Im that confident.

                  2nd. Willy Joe. My boy. Yes it was a zone blitz. But just because its a zone blitz doesn't mean that it was still not moronic. Would you zone blitz Brian Westbrook like that? Thats like putting a DE on Terrell Owens. Im sorry, but thats just dumb no matter how you slice it. Its not like there was an overload blitz coming. It was a 4 man zb rush. With Willy Joe on Westbrook. I don't see how you can defend a decision like that.

                  3rd. He does NOT put Osi, Strahan nor Pierce in positions to succeed. That further illustrates to me you did not watch Giant games (no offense). He ran like I said a Prevent/Cover2. Antonio Pierce is a run thumping MIKE. He does not belong in the deep middle against the TE, or in Man coverage with the TE. That is just moronic. And it was done continuously. He did not help Strahan or Osi because he refused to blitz. Teams doubled them and chipped them all season. Thats also why our DEs got hurt so badly. Teams were aiming for them, and Lewis did nothing to releave the pressure off of them.

                  Remember that guy Lavar Arrington? Remember how he was supposed to be used as a rushbacker? Never happened under Lewis until his "breakout" game against Dallas. Unfortunately for him, he got hurt and thus his career was over, but basically all we did the entire season was run prevent and Cover 2 every single play. He called 4-3 Cover 2 against 4 WR sets. He called Cover 2 8 plays in a row against Seattle in the Redzone, thus leading to 28 points in the blink of an eye. Trust me, Im not joking when I say Tim Lewis is the worst DC ive seen in teh past 10 years.

                  You will not see any Giants or Pittsburgh fan defend him. Why do you think that is? Its not like we're making this stuff up. And I know the players are at fault too, but unless you watch the games, you don't understand how badly our personnell was managed.
                  Sorry I have to disagree. I saw a couple of Giants games (bc they are ALWAYS on tv), granted a bunch of your players were already hurt I think it was the stretch when stahan and osi were both out. But just because you are not blitzing out of a cover-2 does not mean you are not playing to your defenses strength. If your two best passrushers are your de's than you use a cover-2 and put the onus on your de's to generate passrush hoping that your coverage will give them enough time to get the sack. Are you saying that the colts, bears and bucs do not play to the strengths of pass rushing de's like Agundele, Rice, Freeny and Mathis? No.

                  Pierce seemed like a very serviceable cover linebacker and pretty good in all respects. So it's not like his coverage deficiencies really stood out to me, besides who else is a better coverage backer that on your team? Can't take out Wilson because he is playing deep to prevent the big play. Actually that is the ONE problem I had with Lewis' D is that he didn't utilize Wilson who is much more a playmaker when he attacks the line.

                  BUT I just don't think at the time there was anything you could have done to really improve that situation. The LB's you have are not the best, probably not going to generate any more pressure if you blitz AND they you take one more person out of coverage.

                  Plus cover 2 is GOOD for physical corners. It's the corners job to flatten out the route in a cover two. THEN they don't run upfield with the WR's (thus protecting slower cb's, which you have, against deep balls) and release to the safety. And cover 2 can be effective against 4-wide as long as you are are running out of your nickel d. Of course running anything out of your base-d against 4 wide is ********.

                  And about the zone blitz. Yah. Dumb play call, but ANY zone blitz would have gotten toasted by a screen/pass in the flat to Westbrook. It was a good play call from the Eagles. A situation of a perfect call against the perfect defense. Do you take that out of your arsenal bc you are playing the Eagles? No! Do you know why? Because you are too damn predictable. Zone blitzs are designed to catch the Offense off guard while not leaving your corners susceptible to being caught one-on-one. Again this comes back to your D-coordinators recognition that due to your lack of passrushers, plus your corners limited athleticism, they have to have 6 drop in coverage vs. a cover zero. Every team does and every team will get burned once in a while, no reason to stop using it. But if they really do play cover 2 as much as you say they do, then there should have been a corner to cover the short zone.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by no love View Post
                    Sorry I have to disagree. I saw a couple of Giants games (bc they are ALWAYS on tv), granted a bunch of your players were already hurt I think it was the stretch when stahan and osi were both out. But just because you are not blitzing out of a cover-2 does not mean you are not playing to your defenses strength. If your two best passrushers are your de's than you use a cover-2 and put the onus on your de's to generate passrush hoping that your coverage will give them enough time to get the sack. Are you saying that the colts, bears and bucs do not play to the strengths of pass rushing de's like Agundele, Rice, Freeny and Mathis? No.
                    Sure Strahan and Osi are our best pass rusher but they can't do it alone and we didn't have any DTs who could penetrate last year so the only way to give them some help was through the blitz, and guys like Torbor, Short and Arrington are much better on the blitz than back in coverage where they were all absolutely dreadful. Our team was built to attack, not to try and cover our weaknesses. The Bears, colts and Bucs have also always had good pass rushing DTs to take pressure off their DEs, when they were at their best, Tommie Harris, Warren Sapp, etc.

                    Originally posted by no love View Post
                    Pierce seemed like a very serviceable cover linebacker and pretty good in all respects. So it's not like his coverage deficiencies really stood out to me, besides who else is a better coverage backer that on your team? Can't take out Wilson because he is playing deep to prevent the big play. Actually that is the ONE problem I had with Lewis' D is that he didn't utilize Wilson who is much more a playmaker when he attacks the line.
                    Sure Pierce can cover, but he's much better when he can use his smarts around the line to make tackles and disrupt things, as he isn't a physical freak who has 4.4 speed while carrying 240 pounds.

                    Originally posted by no love View Post
                    BUT I just don't think at the time there was anything you could have done to really improve that situation. The LB's you have are not the best, probably not going to generate any more pressure if you blitz AND they you take one more person out of coverage.
                    With the way our team was built we were much better off attacking the QB trying to force a bad pass than trying to sit back and cover hoping we could stop a good pass with more guys.

                    Originally posted by no love View Post
                    Plus cover 2 is GOOD for physical corners. It's the corners job to flatten out the route in a cover two. THEN they don't run upfield with the WR's (thus protecting slower cb's, which you have, against deep balls) and release to the safety. And cover 2 can be effective against 4-wide as long as you are are running out of your nickel d. Of course running anything out of your base-d against 4 wide is ********.
                    while cover 2 is normally good for physical corners it doesn't help them when they're 15 yards off the ball. And they can't bump their corners.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by no love View Post
                      Sorry I have to disagree. I saw a couple of Giants games (bc they are ALWAYS on tv), granted a bunch of your players were already hurt I think it was the stretch when stahan and osi were both out. But just because you are not blitzing out of a cover-2 does not mean you are not playing to your defenses strength. If your two best passrushers are your de's than you use a cover-2 and put the onus on your de's to generate passrush hoping that your coverage will give them enough time to get the sack. Are you saying that the colts, bears and bucs do not play to the strengths of pass rushing de's like Agundele, Rice, Freeny and Mathis? No.

                      Pierce seemed like a very serviceable cover linebacker and pretty good in all respects. So it's not like his coverage deficiencies really stood out to me, besides who else is a better coverage backer that on your team? Can't take out Wilson because he is playing deep to prevent the big play. Actually that is the ONE problem I had with Lewis' D is that he didn't utilize Wilson who is much more a playmaker when he attacks the line.

                      BUT I just don't think at the time there was anything you could have done to really improve that situation. The LB's you have are not the best, probably not going to generate any more pressure if you blitz AND they you take one more person out of coverage.

                      Plus cover 2 is GOOD for physical corners. It's the corners job to flatten out the route in a cover two. THEN they don't run upfield with the WR's (thus protecting slower cb's, which you have, against deep balls) and release to the safety. And cover 2 can be effective against 4-wide as long as you are are running out of your nickel d. Of course running anything out of your base-d against 4 wide is ********.

                      And about the zone blitz. Yah. Dumb play call, but ANY zone blitz would have gotten toasted by a screen/pass in the flat to Westbrook. It was a good play call from the Eagles. A situation of a perfect call against the perfect defense. Do you take that out of your arsenal bc you are playing the Eagles? No! Do you know why? Because you are too damn predictable. Zone blitzs are designed to catch the Offense off guard while not leaving your corners susceptible to being caught one-on-one. Again this comes back to your D-coordinators recognition that due to your lack of passrushers, plus your corners limited athleticism, they have to have 6 drop in coverage vs. a cover zero. Every team does and every team will get burned once in a while, no reason to stop using it. But if they really do play cover 2 as much as you say they do, then there should have been a corner to cover the short zone.

                      I guess we'll just have to disagree on this. I do respect your views though since you sound like an educated poster. Its good to see.

                      The difference between Cover 2 teams and us was the makeup of the team. You don't run Cover 2 when you have slow LBs, and no interior DT pass rusher, nor elite safeties. The fit doesn't make sense at all. Running so much cover 2 does not fit our personell at all. Our personnell is built for man coverage with CBs, and LB zones. Those cover 2 teams have more success sacking the qb because not only do they get more interior pressure with their personnell, but they also have better pass coverage with small quicker guys. Thats why me along with every other Giant fan was livid at us running so much Cover 2. We were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

                      As for Pierce, no, he wasn't a good coverage LB. He got burned continously by the TE, and it wasn't like it just happened once or twice. He's a run thumper, he needs to hover a middle zone, or chase RBs out the backfield. He is not the type that defends the TE down the seem. Thats what the SAM and SS are for. At least with our personell. I do agree on your assessment with Wilson. But honestly, as a Giants fan, I don't think Wilson is that great. I think he's overrated. He doesn't cover too well, and he's slow for a small guy.

                      As for blitzing, we actually had much much more success as a team defense during times we blitzed opposed to times we ran his Prevent/Cover 2. The only reason why he started blitzing for a short span was because his job was on the line. During that period, we had played our best defense. Once his job was secure, he went back to his old ways, and our defense suffered tremendously because of it.

                      As for Cover 2, yes I agree with what you said, but remember, he didnt run a traditional Cover 2. He ran a Prevent Cover 2. The corners didnt jam at all. In fact, they usually played 15 yards deep. Even on 3rd and Short. During man coverage blitzes, those were the only plays when they pressed the receivers, and ironically, those were the plays when our defense was at its best. Because thats the way we're built personnell wise. We're built to play that type of game.

                      As for ZB, just bc its a ZB, doesn't mean that its a Cover 2 ZB. If that were the case, Pittsburgh would damn near be running the same play every play under LeBeau.

                      Its no coincidence that everywhere he's went, the defense IMPROVED after he left. He's just not a good DC. Like I said, ask any Giants or Pittsburgh fan about him. You will not hear one positive response.

                      But again, I'll just respectfully disagree on this with you. You sound like you know your stuff. And thats refreshing to see. :)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Anyway...

                        Mike had a very emotional speech from what I heard, for everyone including Fox and the Owner Richardson. Richardson also issued a challenge to a certain DE on the team to step up and become the leader. The speech really seemed to hit the vets that they need to step up.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I bet Chris Harris is happy. He went from potential roster cut to best safety on his new team. He's serviceable at best, but I always liked him as a teamate and person. Definately a hard worker and somebody that clearly loves the game.

                          That being said, I don't care how you shine this, the Panthers safties are an issue. Is it a backbreaking issue? Who knows? But Chris Harris and Nate Salley aren't even as good as Marlon McCree and Mike Minter if you want to use that as a base of comparison. In fact they aren't even close.

                          The Saints have to be happy as ducks the last few weeks. I honestly think the NFC South might be the worst division in football this year, even worse than the NFC North.


                          Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
                            I bet Chris Harris is happy. He went from potential roster cut to best safety on his new team. He's serviceable at best, but I always liked him as a teamate and person. Definately a hard worker and somebody that clearly loves the game.

                            That being said, I don't care how you shine this, the Panthers safties are an issue. Is it a backbreaking issue? Who knows? But Chris Harris and Nate Salley aren't even as good as Marlon McCree and Mike Minter if you want to use that as a base of comparison. In fact they aren't even close.

                            The Saints have to be happy as ducks the last few weeks. I honestly think the NFC South might be the worst division in football this year, even worse than the NFC North.
                            Salley is better than Minter would be in this season. Minter hasn't been the at his best the last two years and wasn't in position a lot of the time. Chris Harris can be every bit as good as Marlon McCree too. The Panthers don't put much of a shine on the safety position as it is, so it doesn't matter.

                            The Panthers were seventh in total defense last year. That was with Minter and Shawn Williams at safety, Ken Lucas being injured the entire year and Chris Gamble being erratic the whole season. All of those have changed, Chris Harris is better than either Minter or Williams and isn't going to be forced to be playing deep centerfield.

                            In 06, Marlon Mccree played SS for us, and was used in run support more than anything, Minter was used at FS, and was decent at best. But he didn't really need to be much more than that as the corners played amazing on their own and didn't need much help over the top. The weakness on that defense was consistently Ricky Manning Jr. and teams attacked him in the slot.

                            The North has one good team, the Lions can scare people, the Vikings have to figure out if their QB can play, and the Packers aren't going to be a threat unless something miraculous happens.

                            The South has the Saints who should be good, and then the Panthers who finished badly, but were in positions to win almost all of the games they lost. They have addressed their biggest issue, that being offense, and have gotten healthy and added young talent on defense.

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