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  • Some Observations

    A couple of quick hits. Was gonna post this in Shiv's thread but didn't want to take away from his discussion.

    - Eli needs to cut down on the INTs. 11 TDs is great. 8 Ints is not. Thats the one aspect of his game thats holding him back froming being at an elite level. The stat that he forces half of those 8 ints before the half is alarming to me. To me, that means he's forcing throws for a quick score before halftime. He's got to learn not to do that.

    Another alarming stat on him was his qb rating after PA pass. This further reiterates my belief that if we built our offense around the run game the way Pittsburgh and SD have, Eli would put up much better numbers. Theres no doubt in my mind that Eli will be fine and the future qb in New York for years to come. But the Ints have to come down.

    - Sean Taylor is playing like the best FS in the league this season. Dare I say, better than Ed Reed. The weight loss and scheme change has done wonders for him. Hes not second guessing himself anymore, and theyre finally letting him do what he does best, and thats use his natural ability to ballhawk.

    - As impressive as Willis, and Okeye have been playing, Aaron Ross absolutely deserves his name in the DROY runnings. He's been a shutdown CB as a rookie, not giving up any TDs. He doesn't even give up catches. He's been a complete shutdown CB already. And he has 3 INTs on the season, and I believe 1 (maybe 2) sacks. Granted he covers the #2 WR on the other team, but the results are still extremely impressive. In my eyes, what he's doing is more impressive than Willis or Okeye.

    - The only team that has a chance of beating the Pats are the Colts. You can't stop them, you can only outscore them. And the Colts have that ability.

    - Don't sleep on the Steelers and Jaguars

    - This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

    But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

    How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.

    - Shawne Merriman is still getting the job done despite the steroid scandal and lack of blitzing from Cottrell. 5.5 sacks on the season is still very impressive through 6 games. And he's dropping into coverage alot more this season. He's not being used the same way as last season, so all the nonsense of him only getting sacks because he justs blitzes every play is false. And he's just warming up. I expect him to break out soon.

    - Speaking of which, DeMarcus Ware is looking better than ever. Same sack total as Merriman. He's finally putting together pressure to go along with his complete game. He's been an absolute force this season, and the scheme change has greatly benefitted him. You really couldn't go wrong between him and Merriman. Both were really great prospects, and both are gonna be tremendous players. I would still take Merriman over him, but the gap really isn't that wide. Its almost a coin toss.

    - With all the talk about how big strong defenses are yesterdays news, NE proves that the strength based 3-4 is still very much a dominant front in this league with the right players. DEs that weight 310 lbs, NT that weighs 330ish, OLBs that weigh 260 LBs, ILBs that are 240ish and 270?

    Thats one big front 7. That front 7 is huge. Hell, all the LBs except 1 can pass off as DEs. Yet theyre still dominant against both the run and pass. And theyre the most versatile front in the league. Easily. I can't say it enough, speed means nothing if youre running the wrong direction. Instincts and intelligence supercedes speed. Of course you need some speed, you can't be slow, but the best defenses in the league are still built the old school way.

    - Everyone's forgetting about the Colts. They might be as pretty as the Pats, but theyre just as impressive.

  • #2
    Eli is a bit of a risk taker, but he's still fairly young and I think he'll learn to be more patient with experience. Sometimes as a QB it's good to be aggressive, but you also need to wisely choose when to take your shots based on what the Defense is giving you.

    Ross has been outstanding since being put in the line-up, he has good ball skills and reacts well to passes in the air. How I really, wish the Saints could've managed to get him on Draft day..we still have CB problems. Oh well hopefully Usama Young pans out for us.

    Pats/Colts is shaping up to be epic.

    Agreed on Carson. I think he is a very good Quarterback, but he's not Elite yet. It doesn't look like he's stepping into his throws with full authority sometimes. He had one throw vs. the Chiefs to Chad Johnson on a 18 yard Out which sailed, and Patrick Surtain broke on it too easily to pick it off. Also he has a tendency to force some throws when his teams gets down. However I can't be too critical of Palmer, the Offensive line is just collapsing around him right now. (Levi Jones was abused by Jared Allen) and without Rudi Johnson he had no running game to work with.

    Agreed on the Colts, they're winning some tough games and their Defense has been stepping up. I think we'll see just how good they are when they play Jacksonville on the road next Monday Night, another team that's playing some really good ball.
    Last edited by Auron; 10-16-2007, 10:58 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      if pats and colts are undefeated then (which seems likely) it could go down as the best regular season game ever.

      i also agree with the palmer assessment.

      and yes eli throws a lot of picks... but let's not forget who just set the record for career ints. i'm not saying that they are anything like each other, but it's just a thing to point out. however, i agree he won't be elite until he fixes that.

      and one observation: deangelo hall makes a lot of highlight reel plays, but he is not an elite corner. he looked bad last night aside from that pick.
      Let's get it done Spaziani.

      Belichick might be an a-hole... but I'd rather have an a-hole that wins than one that doesn't.

      Comment


      • #4
        I've disliked the Bengals offense for some time, they are too enthralled by the deep ball and the jackpot play. It reflects their immaturity, they need to be more methodical and effective as an offense in moving the chains. That's exactly why a team like the Patriots can come into their stadium and amazingly blank them 0-7 on third downs. That should never happen, even if the 1986 Giants walk through that door. They really grind my gears how they waste that great talent they have, but it never gets any darn pub because of the "Sportscenter" plays that everyone cares about. The tight end seems to be as irrelevant in their offense as possible. The Bengals offense needs to study the Colts and Patriots offenses.

        They don't run the ball enough, despite having a great back like Rudi Johnson and a back-up like Keny Watson who might even be more explosive and a better pass catcher. Plus Chris Perry should be coming off the PUP this week, it's a shame they don't run it more and help keep Carson from getting battered because they want to run more freaking five and seven-step drop pass attempts.
        Pugnacity, testosterone, truculence, and belligerence.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
          - This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

          But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

          How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.
          THANK YOU. Finally, someone realizes it. You don''t know how stunned I was the last time we had a QB thread, and about 35%-40% of the people said that Carson Palmer is the second best QB in the league, behind Manning. I think Palmer is the third best QB, but he is on a different tier than Manning and Brady. There are only two elite QB in the league, and they play for the Colts and the Patriots.

          Comment


          • #6
            I think that the drop between Brady/Manning and everyone else is rediculous. No ones even close which is why I think QB top 5/10 rankings are pointless so many guys with a legit case for a high ranking but still no where near Brady/Manning. All of these guys could legitemately be top 5 qbs after the season: Palmer, Favre, Garcia, McNabb (when healthy), Romo, Brees, Bulger (when healthy and on a team with an oline), Big Ben, Rivers, Cutler and Eli.

            Comment


            • #7
              Agreed on Eli for the most part...I was talking about it during the game last night and it'll probably be the centerpiece of my MVN write-up this week. These INTs are going to hurt us when we are playing good teams....let's not forget who we've played over the past few weeks.

              But in his defense, he takes just as many if not more shots downfield than any QB in the league and that is going to result in a high number of INTs. Not defending him or anything...not that he needs it because he is outplaying many of the outsiders' expectations. Once he cuts out the bonehead INTs (staring down receivers under the 2 minute mark, throwing downfield while falling down) he is going to be a top 10 QB in this league, at worst.

              Surprised to see Jaworksi label him a top 8 QB in the NFL....but I'm saving my rankings until the end of the season. Eli won't be Peyton, ever...but the similarities early on in their careers is almost stunning. The control they both had early on in their careers was more than other young QBs...they both are great with playaction, and they both start off their careers with high INTs but still have plenty of success.
              Originally posted by Paul
              Eli's opportunity to become a legend.
              Originally posted by Vikes99ej
              These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
              MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                A couple of quick hits. Was gonna post this in Shiv's thread but didn't want to take away from his discussion.

                - Eli needs to cut down on the INTs. 11 TDs is great. 8 Ints is not. Thats the one aspect of his game thats holding him back froming being at an elite level. The stat that he forces half of those 8 ints before the half is alarming to me. To me, that means he's forcing throws for a quick score before halftime. He's got to learn not to do that.

                Another alarming stat on him was his qb rating after PA pass. This further reiterates my belief that if we built our offense around the run game the way Pittsburgh and SD have, Eli would put up much better numbers. Theres no doubt in my mind that Eli will be fine and the future qb in New York for years to come. But the Ints have to come down.
                Yeah, as much as I hate him, Eli has loooked like he really took a lot of steps to improve this year. How much Plaxico playing up to potential is helping Eli, or if Eli is helping Plax can be debated, but aside from a bunch of INT's, he's looking like a much better QB. Then again though, he's always looked better the first half of the season, I believe.

                Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                - This one will be controversial. But for awhile now, we've heard that Carson Palmer is an elite qb. That its Peyton, Brady, Carson, and everyone else. That those 3 are on "another level".

                But what has Carson done to merit the same acclaim as Peyton or Brady? Quite honestly, outside that one 30 TD year, he hasn't proven he deserves the same cred as those 2. He has a potent offense, and doesn't put up Peyton or Brady numbers with it. His TD/Int ratio hasn't been that great. Nor has his team been that great. Brady and Peyton win, regardless of other circumstances. Carson does not.

                How about this for a stat? Carson has 12 TD and 8 Ints, and a qb rating of 88.1 this season. I know and expect him to pick it up, but I honestly don't think he's worthy of his status that he's achieved, being named with the likes of Peyton and Brady.
                I'll step up and admit I was one of the people who said Palmer was the #2 QB in the league. And I'll step up now and admit I was wrong. Having seen a lot more of him then I have in year's past, and a lot more of Brady as well its clear who the better QB is. Palmer is inaccurate on a lot of his throws, and throws a lot of costly picks for every touchdown he throws. Good Quarterback, but clearly, not a top two in the league.

                Originally posted by bigbluedefense View Post
                Shawne Merriman is still getting the job done despite the steroid scandal and lack of blitzing from Cottrell. 5.5 sacks on the season is still very impressive through 6 games. And he's dropping into coverage alot more this season. He's not being used the same way as last season, so all the nonsense of him only getting sacks because he justs blitzes every play is false. And he's just warming up. I expect him to break out soon.

                - Speaking of which, DeMarcus Ware is looking better than ever. Same sack total as Merriman. He's finally putting together pressure to go along with his complete game. He's been an absolute force this season, and the scheme change has greatly benefitted him. You really couldn't go wrong between him and Merriman. Both were really great prospects, and both are gonna be tremendous players. I would still take Merriman over him, but the gap really isn't that wide. Its almost a coin toss.
                I'm glad someone acknowledged that Merriman is now becoming the "complete LB" that people used as an excuse for why he had so many sacks. I was "worried" that because his sack total, although good, would still fall under criticism because its not Shawne Merrman numbers from last year. But, like you said, he's being dropped into coverage frequently, and doing fairly well with it at that.

                Ware also is tremendous and your right. There is no huge gap between the two. You couldn't go wrong taking either one of these guys on your team.


                Just picked out a couple of those I felt I was qualified to talk about, so I don't make an idiot of myself on the other subjects I don't know as well..

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Auron View Post
                  Eli is a bit of a risk taker, but he's still fairly young and I think he'll learn to be more patient with experience. Sometimes as a QB it's good to be aggressive, but you also need to wisely choose when to take your shots based on what the Defense is giving you.

                  Ross has been outstanding since being put in the line-up, he has good ball skills and reacts well to passes in the air. How I really, wish the Saints could've managed to get him on Draft day..we still have CB problems. Oh well hopefully Usama Young pans out for us.

                  Pats/Colts is shaping up to be epic.

                  Agreed on Carson. I think he is a very good Quarterback, but he's not Elite yet. It doesn't look like he's stepping into his throws with full authority sometimes. He had one throw vs. the Chiefs to Chad Johnson on a 18 yard Out which sailed, and Patrick Surtain broke on it too easily to pick it off. Also he has a tendency to force some throws when his teams gets down. However I can't be too critical of Palmer, the Offensive line is just collapsing around him right now. (Levi Jones was abused by Jared Allen) and without Rudi Johnson he had no running game to work with.

                  Agreed on the Colts, they're winning some tough games and their Defense has been stepping up. I think we'll see just how good they are when they play Jacksonville on the road next Monday Night, another team that's playing some really good ball.
                  Youre right, this is a big game for the Colts. They win this one, and theyre right there with the Pats in my eyes. Whats lost in the discussion is that while the Patriots offense seems unstoppable, its like we've forgotten just how dominant the Colts offense is as well. Ive come to the conclusion that to beat the Pats, you gotta outscore them.

                  And the Colts can do that. The past 3 years, the Colts have their #. Adalius Thomas improves their unit, but not by so much that the Colts can't drive the ball down the field.

                  Couple the fact that they have the front 4 to rush Brady, and anything is possible. Of course, they MUST have a healthy Bob Sanders to pull it off, but Im not counting them out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by megansett56BC View Post
                    if pats and colts are undefeated then (which seems likely) it could go down as the best regular season game ever.

                    i also agree with the palmer assessment.

                    and yes eli throws a lot of picks... but let's not forget who just set the record for career ints. i'm not saying that they are anything like each other, but it's just a thing to point out. however, i agree he won't be elite until he fixes that.

                    and one observation: deangelo hall makes a lot of highlight reel plays, but he is not an elite corner. he looked bad last night aside from that pick.

                    Yeah, he simply has to cut down on the INTs. Of course, a stronger commitment to the run game would help his cause. We ran very effectively on the Falcons, and we shouldve ran even more. One thing I will say though, that im happy about is that our pass:run ratio is much better this year opposed to last year, in terms of meaningful runs. Last year we did a bunch of meaningless runs at the end of the game to make the ratio seem alot closer than it truely was.

                    Actually, Hall has been stellar this season prior to this game. Granted he didn't have a great game, but it wasn't horrible either. I didn't get why he wasn't on Plax more. He gave up underneath catches, but didn't get beat deep. And let's not forget, prior to this game, he has been absolutely shutdown against every other receiver he went against. He's not a great person or team player, but he is a great corner. And the way other CBs have been playing this year, he's actually played better than all of them not named Champ Bailey up to this point in the season.

                    Having that said, I wouldn't want him on my team. Too much of a lockerroom cancer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Patriots-Lions View Post
                      THANK YOU. Finally, someone realizes it. You don''t know how stunned I was the last time we had a QB thread, and about 35%-40% of the people said that Carson Palmer is the second best QB in the league, behind Manning. I think Palmer is the third best QB, but he is on a different tier than Manning and Brady. There are only two elite QB in the league, and they play for the Colts and the Patriots.
                      Exactly. I don't want to come off as if Im ripping him. He is still the 3rd best in the league. But he simply isn't on the same tier as Brady and Peyton, and shouldn't be labeled as such.

                      Originally posted by Geo View Post
                      I've disliked the Bengals offense for some time, they are too enthralled by the deep ball and the jackpot play. It reflects their immaturity, they need to be more methodical and effective as an offense in moving the chains. That's exactly why a team like the Patriots can come into their stadium and amazingly blank them 0-7 on third downs. That should never happen, even if the 1986 Giants walk through that door. They really grind my gears how they waste that great talent they have, but it never gets any darn pub because of the "Sportscenter" plays that everyone cares about. The tight end seems to be as irrelevant in their offense as possible. The Bengals offense needs to study the Colts and Patriots offenses.

                      They don't run the ball enough, despite having a great back like Rudi Johnson and a back-up like Keny Watson who might even be more explosive and a better pass catcher. Plus Chris Perry should be coming off the PUP this week, it's a shame they don't run it more and help keep Carson from getting battered because they want to run more freaking five and seven-step drop pass attempts.
                      This is also true. The OC and playcalling and oline definately have not helped him. And they desperately need Henry back as their 3rd option, because the TE is meaningless in their system.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        He has improved every year since coming into the league in this aspect but Tom Coughlin and Pope may have turned Jeremey Shockey into the best blocking TE in the league. And I'm just referring to the so-called "every down" TEs. I know most teams have their specialized blocking TEs who are more smaller OTs because they can't do anything else. Shockey last night was mauling people all over the field as well as having maybe he best receiving game of the year. Sealing the outside on all those off tackle runs. Jacobs wouldn't even get touched for 5 yards. Ward could have skipped into the end zone from 8 yards out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                          Yeah, as much as I hate him, Eli has loooked like he really took a lot of steps to improve this year. How much Plaxico playing up to potential is helping Eli, or if Eli is helping Plax can be debated, but aside from a bunch of INT's, he's looking like a much better QB. Then again though, he's always looked better the first half of the season, I believe.



                          I'll step up and admit I was one of the people who said Palmer was the #2 QB in the league. And I'll step up now and admit I was wrong. Having seen a lot more of him then I have in year's past, and a lot more of Brady as well its clear who the better QB is. Palmer is inaccurate on a lot of his throws, and throws a lot of costly picks for every touchdown he throws. Good Quarterback, but clearly, not a top two in the league.



                          I'm glad someone acknowledged that Merriman is now becoming the "complete LB" that people used as an excuse for why he had so many sacks. I was "worried" that because his sack total, although good, would still fall under criticism because its not Shawne Merrman numbers from last year. But, like you said, he's being dropped into coverage frequently, and doing fairly well with it at that.

                          Ware also is tremendous and your right. There is no huge gap between the two. You couldn't go wrong taking either one of these guys on your team.


                          Just picked out a couple of those I felt I was qualified to talk about, so I don't make an idiot of myself on the other subjects I don't know as well..
                          Very true on Eli. Its way too early to feel good about him because of his 2nd half struggles. I have confidence in him, but if he does in fact struggle again, I'll have my worries. I believe the Air Coryell system we run leads to alot of his struggles in December. You can't run Air Coryell in NY, or in Chicago. Its just too windy and cold to execute. If you want to run a high powered offense in cold weather environments a WCO type of system is ideal. You can't hurl it deep every other play when the wind is blowing like that.

                          Look at history too. Most of the successful passing attacks in cold weather environments were WCO style systems. Favre in GB, Brady in NE, Elway in Denver, Paul Brown in Cleveland, etc.

                          Shawne Merriman is a dominant player. In my opinion, the most dominant rushbacker since LT. He's no Lawrence Taylor, but who is? He'll establish himself as the 2nd best rushbacker in NFL history when the dust settles.

                          Originally posted by Number 10 View Post
                          Agreed on Eli for the most part...I was talking about it during the game last night and it'll probably be the centerpiece of my MVN write-up this week. These INTs are going to hurt us when we are playing good teams....let's not forget who we've played over the past few weeks.

                          But in his defense, he takes just as many if not more shots downfield than any QB in the league and that is going to result in a high number of INTs. Not defending him or anything...not that he needs it because he is outplaying many of the outsiders' expectations. Once he cuts out the bonehead INTs (staring down receivers under the 2 minute mark, throwing downfield while falling down) he is going to be a top 10 QB in this league, at worst.

                          Surprised to see Jaworksi label him a top 8 QB in the NFL....but I'm saving my rankings until the end of the season. Eli won't be Peyton, ever...but the similarities early on in their careers is almost stunning. The control they both had early on in their careers was more than other young QBs...they both are great with playaction, and they both start off their careers with high INTs but still have plenty of success.
                          Let's not jinx him :) I have confidence in him, it would just be nice if he developed a little quicker than he has. But i have alot of faith in Eli.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jughead10 View Post
                            He has improved every year since coming into the league in this aspect but Tom Coughlin and Pope may have turned Jeremey Shockey into the best blocking TE in the league. And I'm just referring to the so-called "every down" TEs. I know most teams have their specialized blocking TEs who are more smaller OTs because they can't do anything else. Shockey last night was mauling people all over the field as well as having maybe he best receiving game of the year. Sealing the outside on all those off tackle runs. Jacobs wouldn't even get touched for 5 yards. Ward could have skipped into the end zone from 8 yards out.
                            Shockey, out of the top 5 TEs in the league (Gonz, Winslow, Gates, Witten and Shock in no order) is the best blocking TE of the bunch. People have overlooked how dominant of a blocker he's become.

                            Sorry to the others who I haven't gotten to. Its hard replying to everyone.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not so shocked that he is a top 8 QB according to Jaws. Although I'm guessing he would be 8th. In the up and down world of the NFL these days, QB play is so hit or miss. Its so hard to find a good one. And many of the guys who have been some of the betters QBs over the last 3-4 years have struggled mightily recently.

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