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  • Other games did not treat you kindly yesterday. Made the playoffs a little harder to obtain. Carolina winning would have been big if it happened.

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    • Originally posted by Crimson79 View Post
      Yeah we have a decent number of picks right, but before the Roy Williams trade we could have had an absolute beast of a draft. I am talkin Duke Robinson, BJ Raji, Patrick Chung beastly. That is easily an upgrade at guard, DT, and safety.

      Jerry gets infatuated with stars, and forgets that to be a good team you need to have depth. Hate to use it as an example, but look at the Giants and Patriots. Yesterday the Giants beat the Cardinals keep. They were missing Brandon Jacobs, Plaxico Burress, and Osi Umenyiora. That is easily their best RB, WR, and DE. They still managed to win the game. The Patriots lose Tom Brady, Adalius Thomas, Rodney Harrison, Laurence Maroney, and they still look like a playoff team. We lose Romo, Kosier, Newman, and what do we look like? A bucket full of twisted fist f**k.
      You bring up interesting points! This could be fun to debate. Let me just say, I don't want to fight. I just want to go back and forth with this, because I have a different view of it and want to air it out.

      On the Roy Williams acquisition:
      1) The Method. In my opinion, the best way to acquire a WR is via FA or trade. The worst way? The draft. There's such a high bust factor in the draft and the wait for them to develop (3 years on average) is way too long. So the mere fact that Jerry traded for a WR... I absolutely applaud him for doing it that way.

      2) The Value. Roy was the 7th pick of the draft in 2004 and is now in the prime of his career. We skipped right by the the development years and now have a finished product and he's just 26 years old. He came from a draft that saw Michael Clayton, Michael Jenkins and Rashaun Woods picked in Round 1. Unlike those flakes, we know Roy isn't a bust and that he can do damage in the NFL even as a #1.

      Now considering where he was picked and how far he's come along, let's compare that to what we gave up. It was our 1st, 3rd and 6th for Roy and their 7th. For all intents and purposes, let's just wipe out the 6th and 7th out of the discussion because that's practically a wash, hardly relevant. So a 1st and 3rd for Roy is the real meat of the trade. Considering that Jerry traded for an extra 3rd and 4th round pick in next year's draft, he had flexibility to make this move. Yes, he also had the flexibility to save those picks for the draft and either make another move to trade up or keep the picks and add depth.

      Your point was that we needed to build depth through the draft, so I'll address that one first. If we kept all of our picks, we'd have had 9 draft picks. Rounds 1-7 and the extra 3rd and 4th rounders. That's an insane number of rookies to add to the roster. AND... and this is a BIG AND... there's not even roster space on the 53 man roster to add more bodies in that quantity and that mixture of youth. Not for a team like ours with SB aspirations. It's fine if you are in rebuilding mode like the Lions or Raiders... but adding 9 rookies to our team for depth is a bad idea. There's no way I think we should've or could've gone into the draft with that mindset.

      Now if you want to say that we could've used the 1st and 3rd rounder to move up for another player, then we can't really imagine up the possibilities of what could've been... but I guess we could try. You brought up the names Duke Robinson and BJ Raji. I wouldn't give up a 1st and 3rd for either player. I don't think you would either. Both are fringe first rounders. Both are at positions where you don't usually spend a first round pick on. On the other hand, if we didn't have Roy, then WR would be a top priority in the draft... Agree or Disagree? I would have to say most would agree. Most people forget about that factor now that the need is solved. So what WRs would be available to us in the mid to late first round? Crabtree and Maclin? Doubtful. Louis Murphy, Juaquin Iglesias, Percy Harvin? Yes. But what we got in Roy was a #1 type WR. Are any of those guys #1 WR material in the NFL? I beg to differ. Maybe for the Eagles and Seahawks and teams like that, but not for the Cowboys. haha. If we don't spend a 1st rounder on WR, then the pickings get slimmer and slimmer, the deeper you go in the draft and then what? We are faced with the same problem we had last year. Nobody in the draft gave us anything more than what we already had in Austin, Stanback and Hurd. Our core need at WR was finding someone who could be a true #1 WR in the future. We got that in Roy Williams and saved ourselves the unsurety of gambling on a draft pick. If Roy was in the draft, there's no way we get him with our first round pick. There's probably no way that a first and third round pick would be enough to trade up for him either.

      3) The Cost: What we should be talking about is whether or not Roy's new contract will hinder us in the ability to re-sign our key players. That most likely will be the biggest issue as far as cost goes. But we all know Jerry won't let someone out of his grasp that he wants to keep. It's never happened and nothing leads me to believe that it will happen.

      ...and as far as the draft goes... we still have 7 picks to plan for. ...and if depth is your main concern, we should still be able to build depth starting from Round 2.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Modano View Post
        What about Hamlin? He played one hell of a game. If he played with someone competent next to him (no more Keith Davis, please) he would be an amazing player.
        I 100% agree. Can you imagine him with Dawan Landry or another decent safety back there? Boy, I sure hope we find one. Hamlin was on fire yesterday.

        BoneKrusher

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        • What about drafting Michael Hamlin? lol... Either way I think we should go after a Safety and not one who has all the measurables like Pat Watkins had you know the size and speed. I had Watkins pegged that year and how fitting we ended up taking him. But he really hasn't show us much upside and doesn't look like a long term answer. I like CJ Spillman of Marshall but I think this is a good year for Safeties.
          Whats up buttercup!

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          • I agree with you on most of the points you made except for one, and the part I disagree with you on is the need for a WR. We are already can't figure out how to distribute the ball with the players we have and you wanna add another superstar WR? There comes a point in time where you have to many superstars on one team and we might be getting close to that. Most teams dream of having a group of skill players like Romo, Barber, TO, and Witten. WTF do we need another WR? I know you are thinking of the future, but are we just giving up on Austin, Stanback and Hurd?

            It all comes down to do whether you think the juice is worth the squeeze and I don't think it was.
            Last edited by Crimson79; 11-24-2008, 08:18 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Crimson79 View Post
              I agree with you on most of the points you made except for one, and the part I disagree with you on is the need for a WR. We are already can't figure out how to distribute the ball with the players we have and you wanna add another superstar WR? There comes a point in time where you have to many superstars on one team and we might be getting close to that. Most teams dream of having a group of skill players like Romo, Barber, TO, and Witten. WTF do we need another WR? I know you are thinking of the future, but are we just giving up on Austin, Stanback and Hurd?

              It all comes to do whether you think the juice is worth the squeeze and I don't think it was.
              If you're a GM, your eye always has to be on the future. You can't just live for today. So don't think like that. That is the exact reason Jerry went out and got Roy. He is the future. We could've made a play for him at the end of the year, but I'm happy Jerry jumped on the ball early. The earlier the better.

              Out of Austin, Stanback and Hurd... only 1 maybe 2 at the most have a long term future with the team with or without Roy. You weren't thinking any of those guys were future #1s.... Were you?

              And yes, a WR of that caliber was a need. A WR of lesser caliber was not a need. There's a difference. We have the latter. Just think, what if it was TO that was injured instead of Hurd or Austin? Without Hurd or Austin as it stands now, we're ok, we're still good to go. Without a guy like TO??? We need Roy or we'd be screwed, blued and tattooed. With TO and with Roy, we're golden.

              Oh and I don't think ball distribution is a problem worth talking about. Is there negativity in adding weapons to your arsenal? Only thing I can think about which I pointed out earlier is how it affects the re-signing of future FAs... which I don't lose any sleep in because of the confidence I have in Jerry getting things accomplished in that department.

              So... ball distribution? Not a problem. What happens to Austin, Hurd, Stanback? They fight it out. And the future IS very important and not something to disqualify.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Crimson79 View Post
                I really wish we would not have made the Roy Williams trade. We need help on the OL, DL, ILB, and S, and then we decide to give up 3 picks for a WR? I mean ya he will help the offense, but seriously was that something we needed? If you ask me I say no. If you can't have a good offense with Romo, Witten, Barber, TO, Crayton, and a solid OL then you should just kiss your ass goodbye and fire the offensive coordinator.

                If you want to stay on top in the league you have to build through the draft. Giving up 3 picks for something that is just a perk is dumb. Jerry sacrificed long term success for his I want it now attitude when I don't even think it was necessary.
                You realize had we not made that trade our WR's are TO, Patrick Crayton, and Practice Squad players? Talent or no talent that's not an enticing WR corps, if TO got hobbled for a few plays we would be through.


                And I know D touched on it, but it's basically a 1st a 3rd, throw in how many picks we got from trading back last year, and the extra pick from Pacman suspension and our draft is still going to be a large draft, nothing similiar to Cleveland last year.


                Look at it this way, Jerry wanted a WR, so if we were to draft in the 22-25 range, Jerry would think of moving up for let's say Crabtree for the local kid, it would cost at LEAST a 1st and 3rd to get into that range, and your still looking at development time and hoping you don't have a bust...Who wouldn't rather spend that 1st and 3rd on a proven 26 year old talent? I would every time, this is nothing like two 1st for Joey Galloway, and looking at what we have left in the draft I don't see any harm in it.


                If TO gets hurt, or leaves in a few years, we will all be happy we made this deal, Roy's contract would of been alot higher had he been a Free Agent so the cost isn't concerning, look at what Donte Stallworth or Javon Walker got this off-season for no production.





                Originally posted by Scott Wright
                I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.

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                • Originally posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
                  You realize had we not made that trade our WR's are TO, Patrick Crayton, and Practice Squad players? Talent or no talent that's not an enticing WR corps, if TO got hobbled for a few plays we would be through.


                  And I know D touched on it, but it's basically a 1st a 3rd, throw in how many picks we got from trading back last year, and the extra pick from Pacman suspension and our draft is still going to be a large draft, nothing similiar to Cleveland last year.


                  Look at it this way, Jerry wanted a WR, so if we were to draft in the 22-25 range, Jerry would think of moving up for let's say Crabtree for the local kid, it would cost at LEAST a 1st and 3rd to get into that range, and your still looking at development time and hoping you don't have a bust...Who wouldn't rather spend that 1st and 3rd on a proven 26 year old talent? I would every time, this is nothing like two 1st for Joey Galloway, and looking at what we have left in the draft I don't see any harm in it.


                  If TO gets hurt, or leaves in a few years, we will all be happy we made this deal, Roy's contract would of been alot higher had he been a Free Agent so the cost isn't concerning, look at what Donte Stallworth or Javon Walker got this off-season for no production.
                  I forgot about that 2 firsts for Galloway. Sheesh. Talk about cost comparison! Compared to the deals Jerry used to make.... The man has one thing going for him... He learns from his past mistakes.

                  Comment


                  • ehh you guys blow and I hate you all! :p

                    Maybe I just like the draft to much, and I want more picks to play with.

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                    • Originally posted by Crimson79 View Post
                      ehh you guys blow and I hate you all! :p

                      Maybe I just like the draft to much, and I want more picks to play with.
                      We still have 7 left. That's as much as any draft normally would start off with.

                      You had interesting points, but I'm glad we had that discussion. Don't worry, if you stay here long enough, you'll be completely brain washed. hahaa. :p

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                      • Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?

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                        • Originally posted by FinChase View Post
                          Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?
                          For the Wild Card I believe it is conference record. You have lost to the Rams, Giants, Cardinals and Redskins. I'm not sure who the Skins losses are. I know the Giants, Rams, Cowboys, and maybe an AFC team.

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                          • Actually, isn't it division record for teams coming from the same division? I believe it is...but maybe that is only with respect to the divisional winner.


                            As for the RW thing....its been a move that I was against, but something that will likely end up being a great move in the long run. The only way it hurts us long term is if the cap implications are such that we are unable to retain a key player or two because of the deal we gave Roy. Since the NFL's cap system is so damn complicated, there is no way of knowing whether this is the case or not until after the fact, so it doesn't even merit debating at this point. Up to now, Jerry has been able to figure it all out, so he's earned the benefit of the doubt on that count.


                            Short term, I really don't see him being that much of an upgrade over the Hurd/Austin combo that would be working in his place anyway. Since he's been here, I have only seen him make one game changing play that Patrick or Miles couldn't have made, and that was his TD against Tampa that basically won us the game. Nice, but for a 1st and a 3rd along with 45m, I'm not that impressed. I am interested as to why we didn't just wait until the off season to get it done, where we could have gotten him integrated into our offense without a season full of angst and irritation, and possibly signed him without having to provide any compensation at all (though that is admittedly unlikely).

                            All told, unless there is a TO injury situation like we saw last year, Roy's real value to this team won't really start to show up until, most likely, 2010. At that time he'll finally be taking over the reins from TO as the teams go-to threat and hopefully be able to hold the position down well enough to keep this offense clicking on all cylinders. One thing I do agree on is that its usually better to go about acquiring big time WRs via FA or trade than through the draft. It looks great when you hit big on one, but the bust ratio is probably higher than any other single position, and the development time involved is often as many as 3 years. Its just a mess I am happy to avoid. I didn't like the deal, but I certainly can understand it.
                            Originally posted by 21ST
                            He was protecting his self
                            Originally posted by tjsunstein
                            From what? His leg?
                            Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck
                            That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
                            "We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

                            DeMarcus Ware

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                            • Originally posted by FinChase
                              Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?
                              After head2head it becomes Conference record. We are at 5-4 in conference while the Skins are 6-3

                              http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

                              Originally posted by NFL.com
                              TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION
                              If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

                              Two Clubs
                              Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
                              Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
                              Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
                              Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
                              Strength of victory.
                              Strength of schedule.
                              Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
                              Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
                              Best net points in common games.
                              Best net points in all games.
                              Best net touchdowns in all games.
                              Coin toss
                              Originally posted by DMWSackMachine
                              Short term, I really don't see him being that much of an upgrade over the Hurd/Austin combo that would be working in his place anyway. Since he's been here, I have only seen him make one game changing play that Patrick or Miles couldn't have made, and that was his TD against Tampa that basically won us the game. Nice, but for a 1st and a 3rd along with 45m, I'm not that impressed. I am interested as to why we didn't just wait until the off season to get it done, where we could have gotten him integrated into our offense without a season full of angst and irritation, and possibly signed him without having to provide any compensation at all (though that is admittedly unlikely).
                              Given where we were at when we made the trade. We were looking at a season that was fading before our very eyes. So we make a trade which won't truly show significant signs until next year. But his name and what he brings to the team was enough to spark us a win against the Bucs... Which helped get us over the hump. If we think as you do that it will take an offseason to see him in full action for us. Then everything we get from him this season is icing on top. Plus we won't have to wait until midway through next season before he starts showing up. He's learning easy stuff now(which he would be learning in the offseason.) By the time next season starts he should be at his best...

                              I really liked making the move when we did. He can impact this season and we didn't have to pay the price we were looking at before the last draft(2 consecutive first rounders) It also helped to get us through a really tough portion of the season.

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                              • Roy Williams better make an impact this year. Otherwise we could have waited for him to become a FA and signed him to the same contract without giving up 3 draft picks.

                                Make no mistake, Jerry was anticipating results this year. Hopefully they start clicking.

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