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  • I don't see us being a top 10 43 defense so why not let mangini at this point implement his system... Why not mask some of our blitzing packages and coverage schemes to keep teams guessing if our 43 is going to be middle of the pack...I could see the 1st year questions as the team was set up to play 43 and some 2nd year questions but to be honest there wasn't much of a way to change the D to an exclusive 34 last year but the thing is a 34 can turn into a 43 with one blitzer and a slide of the linebackers. We haven't been playing traditional 34 defense anyway there are a significant number of times when the D lines up in a straight 43 as opposed to the 34 and more times when the 34 turns into the 43 bc its easier to rush one more than to have a DE put his hand down and then drop into coverage. Im fine with our defense moving forwarda and frankly the criticism of our system is getting tired...we have 43 players and a 34 coach thats not manginis fault he cant just firesale the players. Also his methodology and approach stating that a 34 is better than a 43 is proven. 34 defenses when traditionally assembled over the course of 3 or 4 years have been proven to be better than 43 Ds which was mhy mike tomlin who was a defensive coordinator who knew the 43 cover 2 stayed with the 34...he saw the success the 34 brings when implemented or schemed properly...he also was able to motivate his players much better and that's what he could offer besides being a defensive coord. (unlike mangini whos known to be a brain)
    teams who use a full on 34
    -Patriots
    -Chargers
    -Steelers
    -Ravens
    -Dallas

    their success percentage is much better than the rest of the league who uses 43s or teams like us or san fran who have hybrid Ds.


    my point is that with last years draft and the year befores cap situation we could not replace our weaknesses on D ie NT DE OLB. Yet our defense has shown that it can keep us in games 2 years ago and last season was ranked 1st against the pass after the bye week. This season should be transformative for the defense we have the money and the Draft sets up perfectly for us to go and sign or draft players for the 34. I truly think if we can get a NT Vilma (like Ray Lewis) is fine to play in the 34 despite being a 43 player...DL like DROB and Ellis can't adjust or hide weaknesses in such a system bc no one is there to keep them CLEAN. Finally, I think with a good draft which we've seen is more than likely with our FO that we can turn our D asround and build from within which is the ultimate key to unlocking the door to the superbowl.

    Our 43 front 7
    Ellis Drob Coleman Thomas
    Hobson Vilma Harris

    Our 34 front 7

    Ellis Drob Coleman
    Hobson Vilma Harris Thomas

    for me thats negligable neither is top flight and one may be able to say oh that 43 is much better than that 34 but how much what is that 43 15th in the NFL the 34 (which can mask and morph) is close to 15th.

    Guys we should target in the draft and FA

    DE
    Pat Sims (IMO the best 34 DE prospect in the draft)
    Kentwan Balmer
    Dre Moore
    Paul Spicer (FA)
    Tommy Kelly (FA)
    Corey Williams (FA)

    NT
    Sedrick Ellis
    Ahytiba Rubin
    Marcus Harrison
    Frank Morton
    Shaun Rogers (Pot. FA)

    OLB
    TONS

    we can make this a 34 defense the best way to start would be to get rid of DRob via trade or release and to sign or trade for shaun rogers

    if we had shaun rogers we would not needd to draft ellis rubin or anyone else at NT in fact with Shaun Rogers (the subsequent and overly cautious draft picks....(no Gholstons falling to the 3rd rd if you know what i mean) I believe we can be a playoff contender right away. There are a lot of moves to be made lets forget about saying that mangini should switch to a 43 bc its not going to happen and it probably wouldn't bode well for the team.

    1)Vernon Gholston
    2)Pat Sims
    3)Carl Nicks
    4)Mike McGlynn
    5)Adrian Arrington
    6)Darnell Terrell

    Our 34 front 7 is then
    Sims Rogers Coleman
    Gholston Vilma Harris Thomas

    you would also have ellis to come in at the hybrid position they found lineing him up in a stand up position as well as a pass rushing DE. You also have Barton to give you not only depther inside or out but a decent started if need be. With Sims and Rogers and Gholston rushing Thomas would probably revert back to his 8 sack season form. Vilma would be blocked off and could make plays next to the best rookie LB in football this year (well at the very least the best in the AFC...that side note is for any trollers who want to start something I genuinely believe Harris is more valuable to the Jets than Willis to the 49ers) anyway the defense is much better off for a 34 and there are piece to allow it to morph and excel as a 43 too so IMO...we should not worry or complain but look at the immense amount of possibilities.
    Last edited by hcbrad08; 02-11-2008, 04:18 PM.
    QB, OG, OLB, WR, CB, MLB, RB, FS

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    Comment


    • I think in the end though, the 3-4 defense is generally perceived as a better shutdown defense and the dominance of his alma matters defense was reason to change as well. We can play the "what if" game all we want, and it's true that we'll never know for sure, but I can almost guarantee you that our team would not be that much difference had we been in the 4-3, our defense was aging and aside from Vilma, we had no real good players in the 4-3 who COULDN'T transition to the 3-4. We were never a standout D prior to the 3-4, whereas now we are on our way to being a top defense.
      Glenn Dorsey will slip...

      Jets will not take McFadden...

      Comment


      • For whomever was talking about the Panthers' OT's, Gross is said to almost certainly be franchised. I'd expect Wharton to get signed on, but maybe not. I'm not sure he'd be terribly effective at RT anyway, but who knows.

        As for the 3-4 defense, there's no point in looking back now. I think we could very easily convert to the 3-4 defense. With an excellent off-season, we could really turn the defense around so long as we get the right pieces in place. I don't think it's quite as hard as some may make it sound.
        Ohio State Buckeyes Duke Blue Devils New York Jets St. Louis Cardinals San Jose Sharks Seattle Mariners

        Comment


        • Hey Jets fans, I was making a mock and it when it came to your pick I hit a roadblock. Gholston, Ellis, McFadden, Jake Long, and Chris Long were all gone. Who do you think youd take there? I was thinking Harvey, but not entirely sure. Can you help me out?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mr.Regular View Post
            Hey Jets fans, I was making a mock and it when it came to your pick I hit a roadblock. Gholston, Ellis, McFadden, Jake Long, and Chris Long were all gone. Who do you think youd take there? I was thinking Harvey, but not entirely sure. Can you help me out?
            Ellis is a likely choice, Harvey is my preferred choice.
            Glenn Dorsey will slip...

            Jets will not take McFadden...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by nvot9 View Post
              Ellis is a likely choice, Harvey is my preferred choice.
              He said Ellis was gone.

              I'm almost undoubtedly along on this, but I'd rather see Dorsey than Harvey. Dorsey just has something about him that can't be measured with tests that makes me believe he could be special, regardless of the situation. With Harvey, I think he's terribly overrated, but oh well.

              On a side-note, this is what I fear will happen in the actual draft. All of those players being drafted, that is. The most we could hope for is someone like the Bengals or Lions wanting to trade up for Dorsey.
              Ohio State Buckeyes Duke Blue Devils New York Jets St. Louis Cardinals San Jose Sharks Seattle Mariners

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mr.Regular View Post
                Hey Jets fans, I was making a mock and it when it came to your pick I hit a roadblock. Gholston, Ellis, McFadden, Jake Long, and Chris Long were all gone. Who do you think youd take there? I was thinking Harvey, but not entirely sure. Can you help me out?
                trade the pick, get players or picks
                "Somewhere in the world Ken O'Brien is laughing."

                Comment


                • Jets Off-Season (FA only)

                  Sign Tommy Kelly - I think this move would be HUGE. Kelly is such a tremendous run stopper and would really help our DLine, I think he'd be a great NT.

                  Sign Calvin Pace/Clark Haggans - I think we're going to have to get TWO OLB's this off-season. One in the draft, and another in FA. Obviously not getting Dansby or Suggs, I'd love Calvin Pace (he's huge...272 lbs and a great pass rusher off the edge) to be a starter, and I'd love Clark Haggans to be a back-up or even starter...can still get 5-8 sacks I believe...upgrade over Thomas?

                  Sign Shawn Andrews/Shane Locklear/Alan Faneca/Jacob Bell - I really don't know if we've got a shot at any of these guys, all but Faneca seem like they'll be resigned, and with Faneca's age, is he worth ALL the money that he's gunna ask/be given due to bidding wars? I dnno..Jets have tons of cap space but I just don't know the likelihood. I'd love any of these guys though...no other OLman via FA though.

                  Sign Randall *** - Seems like a perfect fit...we need a veteran CB who's actually good, sucked in the Jags game though so I dnno.
                  Glenn Dorsey will slip...

                  Jets will not take McFadden...

                  Comment


                  • Hmm. I don't know if the Cards would get rid of Pace considering how they've changed around their defense. DTs off knee surgeries are pretty sketchy though, so I don't know how I feel about that. And it's Stacy Andrews, now Shawn. I'm not sure what to think of Sean Locklear. I don't think he'll be leaving Seattle, but if he does, it's because he's not very good. He got beat quite a bit on the right side there this season.
                    Ohio State Buckeyes Duke Blue Devils New York Jets St. Louis Cardinals San Jose Sharks Seattle Mariners

                    Comment


                    • Did anyone hear about us getting offered Roy for Vilma straight up? I saw it on some other message board, but no link. That'd almost be too good to be true, but I sort of doubt it. Anyone want to make my day and say they've heard about this?
                      Ohio State Buckeyes Duke Blue Devils New York Jets St. Louis Cardinals San Jose Sharks Seattle Mariners

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by hcbrad08 View Post
                        I don't see us being a top 10 43 defense so why not let mangini at this point implement his system... Why not mask some of our blitzing packages and coverage schemes to keep teams guessing if our 43 is going to be middle of the pack...I could see the 1st year questions as the team was set up to play 43 and some 2nd year questions but to be honest there wasn't much of a way to change the D to an exclusive 34 last year but the thing is a 34 can turn into a 43 with one blitzer and a slide of the linebackers. We haven't been playing traditional 34 defense anyway there are a significant number of times when the D lines up in a straight 43 as opposed to the 34 and more times when the 34 turns into the 43 bc its easier to rush one more than to have a DE put his hand down and then drop into coverage. Im fine with our defense moving forwarda and frankly the criticism of our system is getting tired...we have 43 players and a 34 coach thats not manginis fault he cant just firesale the players. Also his methodology and approach stating that a 34 is better than a 43 is proven. 34 defenses when traditionally assembled over the course of 3 or 4 years have been proven to be better than 43 Ds which was mhy mike tomlin who was a defensive coordinator who knew the 43 cover 2 stayed with the 34...he saw the success the 34 brings when implemented or schemed properly...he also was able to motivate his players much better and that's what he could offer besides being a defensive coord. (unlike mangini whos known to be a brain)
                        teams who use a full on 34
                        -Patriots
                        -Chargers
                        -Steelers
                        -Ravens
                        -Dallas


                        their success percentage is much better than the rest of the league who uses 43s or teams like us or san fran who have hybrid Ds.


                        my point is that with last years draft and the year befores cap situation we could not replace our weaknesses on D ie NT DE OLB. Yet our defense has shown that it can keep us in games 2 years ago and last season was ranked 1st against the pass after the bye week. This season should be transformative for the defense we have the money and the Draft sets up perfectly for us to go and sign or draft players for the 34. I truly think if we can get a NT Vilma (like Ray Lewis) is fine to play in the 34 despite being a 43 player...DL like DROB and Ellis can't adjust or hide weaknesses in such a system bc no one is there to keep them CLEAN. Finally, I think with a good draft which we've seen is more than likely with our FO that we can turn our D asround and build from within which is the ultimate key to unlocking the door to the superbowl.

                        Our 43 front 7
                        Ellis Drob Coleman Thomas
                        Hobson Vilma Harris

                        Our 34 front 7

                        Ellis Drob Coleman
                        Hobson Vilma Harris Thomas

                        for me thats negligable neither is top flight and one may be able to say oh that 43 is much better than that 34 but how much what is that 43 15th in the NFL the 34 (which can mask and morph) is close to 15th.

                        Guys we should target in the draft and FA

                        DE
                        Pat Sims (IMO the best 34 DE prospect in the draft)
                        Kentwan Balmer
                        Dre Moore
                        Paul Spicer (FA)
                        Tommy Kelly (FA)
                        Corey Williams (FA)

                        NT
                        Sedrick Ellis
                        Ahytiba Rubin
                        Marcus Harrison
                        Frank Morton
                        Shaun Rogers (Pot. FA)

                        OLB
                        TONS

                        we can make this a 34 defense the best way to start would be to get rid of DRob via trade or release and to sign or trade for shaun rogers

                        if we had shaun rogers we would not needd to draft ellis rubin or anyone else at NT in fact with Shaun Rogers (the subsequent and overly cautious draft picks....(no Gholstons falling to the 3rd rd if you know what i mean) I believe we can be a playoff contender right away. There are a lot of moves to be made lets forget about saying that mangini should switch to a 43 bc its not going to happen and it probably wouldn't bode well for the team.

                        1)Vernon Gholston
                        2)Pat Sims
                        3)Carl Nicks
                        4)Mike McGlynn
                        5)Adrian Arrington
                        6)Darnell Terrell

                        Our 34 front 7 is then
                        Sims Rogers Coleman
                        Gholston Vilma Harris Thomas

                        you would also have ellis to come in at the hybrid position they found lineing him up in a stand up position as well as a pass rushing DE. You also have Barton to give you not only depther inside or out but a decent started if need be. With Sims and Rogers and Gholston rushing Thomas would probably revert back to his 8 sack season form. Vilma would be blocked off and could make plays next to the best rookie LB in football this year (well at the very least the best in the AFC...that side note is for any trollers who want to start something I genuinely believe Harris is more valuable to the Jets than Willis to the 49ers) anyway the defense is much better off for a 34 and there are piece to allow it to morph and excel as a 43 too so IMO...we should not worry or complain but look at the immense amount of possibilities.
                        I'll start first by saying that the difference being that these teams that you mention (probably with the exception of Dallas) someone who can properly play the role of nose tackle.... and the Jets don't. Yeah, teams that run the 3-4 defense on the whole are more successful, but thats because those teams have the personel to run those defenses. It's not going to matter what the scheme is if you don't have the personel to properly run it.

                        Now maybe that'll change this offseason (believe me, there is no Jets fan on this board who is a bigger fan of a trade with Detroit for Shaun Rogers and possibly Roy Williams and Kevin Jones than me), but right now, thats the way it is.

                        Also, I'd think in a 4-3 defense, either Kenyon Coleman, C.J. Mosley or Sione Pouha would be the nose tackle. The difference between the 4-3 and the 3-4 isn't just one DE/OLB with his hand down or not. People have different responsibilities and different matchups. It would allow DeWayne Robertson to move back to undertackle where he always belonged and allow Shaun Ellis better opportunities to rush the passer.

                        I'll also say that I think Sedrick Ellis as I see him as someone who has the versatility to play either DT position in the 4-3, but none in the 3-4.

                        Comment


                        • Okay so if Chad leaves, who do you think we'll pick up to be the backup? I don't think Tui is good enough to be the backup
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                          • I personally wouldn't mind seeing trent greeg; i'm not sure how many teams want him to be the QB they are relying on to start and win the entire season. I'm not sure how he feels about being a backup, probably not too fondly, however he could be enticed to play in NY due to the large market and the fact that he has opportunity to earn his starting job. Granted tannenbaum may have no intentions of Green starting, but given the idea that he could earn the right might make him like the prospect of the jets as opposed to other teams where he would 100% be the backup.

                            "When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time."

                            Comment


                            • I wouldn't mind Billy Volek. I think San Diego made a huge mistake not going with him against the Patriots considering Rivers' injury. Not only would Volek provide the Jets a quality backup, but I think Volek could potentially start for the Jets if Mangini thinks Clemens needs a bit more time.

                              Alas, with the signing of Heimerdinger, I have a feeling that he's heading back to Tennessee. We should never have let him go. :(

                              Comment


                              • You would really want either of those guys over Pennington? Really, honestly?

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