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  • #16
    Originally posted by eaglesalltheway View Post
    Yeah me too. I used to be a d-line coach, but I stopped because it was jsut taking too much time up in my life, and its not like I was gonna make a career out of it. It was tough though, there are a lot of players and other coaches that I'll miss seeing every day..
    if you don't mind me asking, do you have any particular preference with what kind of dlinemen you prefer?

    small quick guys or big strong guys etc? do you believe in having NTs, or two 1 gap DTs, etc.

    just curious to know your personal philosophy.

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    • #17
      Since I wasn't at a high level, I prefferred the best guys I could put on my team, whether that be with quick DTs or DE or cloggers at DT or DE. In an ideal situation, with which I had the most success, I want to have a balnced D-line. I want a two gap NT type DT and a penetrating one gap UT. I like having DEs who can reach the QB, as I like pass rushers, but if they can't hold their own against the run that is a major problem for me, as run stopping is very important at the level I was coaching. (Middle School and Freshman)
      I am a beleiver in the 4-3, and my ideal D-line looks like this...
      LE or RE- Balanced DE who can get to the QB when needed to, but not necessarily a terror in the backfield. Good at the POA and good in the pass rush, but doesn't need to excel at either.
      DT1. Big two gap style NT who clogs up blocks and frees up the rest of the line and the LBs behind him. Must be good against the run.
      DT2. Quick, penetrating UT who can get to the backfiled using speed and athleticism. Must also at least hold their own in the run game, but doesn't need to be as good at it as my NT
      RE or LE. Must be a good pass rusher, someone who can make OTs nervous and could sometimes need to be double teamed by the TE or FB, or chip blocked by the back. A guy like this can be important in the passing gmae because if he doesn't reach the QB, that means that either one receiver had to help out and thus be less of a receiving option. Doesn't necessarily have to be good agianst the run, but once again, a run stopper would be nice too.

      What I mean by RE or LE on that list is I would prefer to have one like the DE I have listed at the top, and one like I have listed at the bottom, whether it be a RE or LE. Coupled with the DTs that is a balanceddefensive line, who can hold their own in both the run game and the pass game. Of course, your not always able to do this, depending on personnel that you have to work with, or by what the LB and secondary coaches have to deal with. If our secondary is weak, the other coaches have preferred to have quick pass rushing DEs to cover it up as much as possible, which I understand, but if that means sacrificing a lot in the run game, I would let them know, because that too can come back and bite you in the end. My first year (for Middle School), last year, my two best DTs were UT style DTs, so those were my starters, and we had two balanced DEs. We had a good pass rush, but the two DTs weren't exactly the best at run stuffing, and that was a major weakness for them. I tried teaching them better leverage and keeping pads low and hand placment and a couple of grabs that worked for me when I played DT, but the fact was they were just better in the pass game, and couldn't hold up as well in the run game. Last year for the Freshman Squad, I had something close to what my ideal scenario for the line was, but i had two pass rushing DEs instead of a pass rusher and a balanced one. My one DT hogged up blocks, and my other took full advantage fo it. I think in one game my UT style DT had three sacks. I've never seen the kid so psyched. But the defense got burned on outside runs a few times, though not totally the fault of the line, as our SAM and WILL were not exactly the best, and our CBs offered little in run support. This past year, I had the same D-line for my fresman squad as I did for middle school, but my DTs were a little better against the run, but still below average. Both are very good at getting to the QB though, and that is where they make a mark on the defense. My middle schools squad this year though was three run stuffers (our two DTs and our RE) and a balanced DE. We were very good against the run, but not very good against the pass. Our defense had to have a lot of blitzes to get pressure on the QB, and that resulted in some coverage breakdowns. I decided not to do it again because it took up a lot of time, and I mean, I'm 19, I don't need this taking up so much time, especially with work. Some of my days would suck. I would get home from work and head strait to practices or games. I leave for work at 7 in the morning and some days I wouldn't get home until after 9:00 at night. Two a days were tough, I took a few days off of work each year so I could be there, but the whole thing was a cluster. I have a lot more free time now though. I hang out with a few of my friends, sometimes just relax and watch TV, and I'm on NFLDC quite a bit more... haha
      Nanna Bryndís Hilmarsdóttir is a goddess

      Rest in Peace, themaninblack

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      • #18
        Great post. There was widespread misinformation here in the NE area when Assante was visiting Philly. Much of it was exactly what you bring up - people not recognizing/understanding the difference between man coverage as an occasional assignment in the zone blitz sceme.

        Samuel was a great signing by the Igles. Hopefully he won't prove to be the player that makes the Pats 'no-big-contract' philosophy come back to haunt them. I have my concerns, especially since I expect another league leading INT & probowl season from him.

        Sig img shamelessly stolen from teh interwebs

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        • #19
          I guess thats good for the Eagles then...
          Nanna Bryndís Hilmarsdóttir is a goddess

          Rest in Peace, themaninblack

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          • #20
            OK, so I was reading an Eagles Season Preview and it was a load of BS.

            People do not understand the defense that JJ runs.

            One of the criticisms was that the Eagles do not have a legitimate every down DE. That right there was a sign that the "preview" was going to be BS. Trent Cole is as good of an every down DE as you can find in the NFL. Victor Abiamiri has potential to be a good every down DE.

            But other than that, Chris Clemons, Bryan Smith, Jaqua Parker are all smaller DEs. The Reason the Eagles have smaller DE's is because the Eagles drop the DE's into coverage a lot more than other teams. (See last diagram). Which is also a reason why the Eagles DEs are good fits at OLB in a 3-4.

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            • #21
              Great post and very interesting thread. I've always been a fan of Johnson's defense, but I rarely get a chance to see it function anymore here on the west coast.

              That last diagram, of the overload, is the one I find most interesting. I understand the intent is to shut off the right half of the field with the pass rush (provided by Patterson, Bunkley, Gocong, and Abiamiri) and shut off the left half of the field with extensive coverage (courtesy of Cole, Brown, and Dawkins), but the possible gap left on the strongside of the field would be troubling. With both safeties shifting to the left in coverage and Samuel plays the deep zone, completely the Cover 3, it would appear that the ability to properly judge the speed with which to get into position by the middle and weakside linebackers (Gaither and Stewart) becomes the real hinge. Stewart has a good deal of ground to cover, especially if he's going to try and be keeping the tight end under wraps before the quarterback can dump it off in the face of the rush, and with Gocong voiding his position to blitz, there would almost have to be a significant gap between Gaither and Stewart no matter how perfectly they drag across the quarterback's vision.

              Maybe I'm being too cautious when the obvious intent of the play is a form of shock & awe, but any quarterback who can keep his wits and is able to see over the rush coming from the right side would seem to have some pretty sparse zone coverage to exploit.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
                Great post and very interesting thread. I've always been a fan of Johnson's defense, but I rarely get a chance to see it function anymore here on the west coast.

                That last diagram, of the overload, is the one I find most interesting. I understand the intent is to shut off the right half of the field with the pass rush (provided by Patterson, Bunkley, Gocong, and Abiamiri) and shut off the left half of the field with extensive coverage (courtesy of Cole, Brown, and Dawkins), but the possible gap left on the strongside of the field would be troubling. With both safeties shifting to the left in coverage and Samuel plays the deep zone, completely the Cover 3, it would appear that the ability to properly judge the speed with which to get into position by the middle and weakside linebackers (Gaither and Stewart) becomes the real hinge. Stewart has a good deal of ground to cover, especially if he's going to try and be keeping the tight end under wraps before the quarterback can dump it off in the face of the rush, and with Gocong voiding his position to blitz, there would almost have to be a significant gap between Gaither and Stewart no matter how perfectly they drag across the quarterback's vision.

                Maybe I'm being too cautious when the obvious intent of the play is a form of shock & awe, but any quarterback who can keep his wits and is able to see over the rush coming from the right side would seem to have some pretty sparse zone coverage to exploit.
                PMD something to take a look at is how the diagram would be disguised on gameday.

                I highly doubt they run that blitz regularily with the standard 4-3 set...my guess is that both LB'ers would show blitz on the right side...now you mentioned a QB that could see over the blitz and still have the ability to make a good throw with his vision...well instantly peyton comes to mind....

                Now if you look at it like this....lets say we are in a singleback set with the colts and strongside is the offenses right side...same side the blitz is coming...if TE is tight to the formation and peyton reads heavy blitz that side he likely audibles to keep the TE to block or to a quick run/pass right.

                The beauty of this play is that...if manning is to audible....you have your biggest worry the TE drag called off....you have defense against a quick slant with Cole falling to a zone....your weakness becomes the run to the left side...but you have heavy rotation going that direction. So you have just a couple of quick things to go to otherwise it's up to the players.

                If your worried about stewart getting to his zone....if he is showing blitz...he is already near the LOS...it becomes a footrace between him and the back/te...if the TE goes out on a route wide...there is a slight chance that the QB can get the throw off...in which case you have a WR and CB one on one for the block and stewart in pursuit....this is probably the ideal play for the offense...but I'm guessing you'd see an audible called or a offside checkdown before you set your primary target as the TE dragging outside.

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                • #23
                  I can't imagine the overload play would get many calls that aren't strict passing downs, so I'm less worried about a run to the left doing damage. However, if the tight end is running a short route, he has a multitude of options no matter where he goes.

                  With the trio of linemen blitzing, additional space should be made between the trench and where the tightend and linebackers are operating. If he heads to the right, he's got Stewart (not the fastest guy in the world) in pursuit and Asante Samuel as the most immediate tackler ahead of him.

                  If he heads to the left (let us say on a dragging route), he running against the grain of Stewart who, if he was showing blitz, is going to be running completely horizontal to the flat. Any tight end whose name isn't Bubba Franks would catch him on his back heel easily, meaning the play would suddenly depend suddenly on Gaither's ability to read this and attach himself to the tight end before the ball makes it there.

                  The other bonus of running the route to the left means that the quarterback gets to step away from the rush and assuming he doesn't freak out when he look out wide left and sees the coverage, should give him additional visibility.

                  Yes, the initial reaction of any quarterback facing this play is to step away from the rush and look to his left, where he will be inevitably met with coverage on the three levels of the field. That said, the play expands what the middle of the field is by splitting a lot of players to the edge, and then defends that middle with two linebackers. It's terribly risky.

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                  • #24
                    Again good points PMD

                    I'm still not sold that the QB will have enough time to have the TE flash on a drag..

                    Like you said Stewart will be moving horizontally and this will force the TE to get around him essentially which would be the exact same thing for Stewart....this slight crossup probably allows the rush to get to the QB before the TE flashes open....the only quick routes I see that would burn this play is flare right to your RB...who should be able to out run the backer...which puts huge pressure on Samuel to shed the block and make the open field tackle..the quick slant is shut down by Cole...and a hitch is a minimal gain...like you said probably only use this defense is obvious passing situations...quick hitch get's you 4-5 yards...probably not enough.

                    That said...the best way to beat any blitz is to go right at it the majority of the time...if you can get a lob pass to your TE before the rush is there you win....but this becomes a huge risk play in the face of the beast.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by thule View Post
                      That said...the best way to beat any blitz is to go right at it the majority of the time...if you can get a lob pass to your TE before the rush is there you win....but this becomes a huge risk play in the face of the beast.
                      Also many good pints brought up between the both of you. The perfect example of what you are tlaking about is a play two years ago against the cowboys when Garcia hit L.J. wit a lob almost directly after the snap and L.J. ran for almost 50 yards I beleive before he was tackled just short of a touchdown.
                      Nanna Bryndís Hilmarsdóttir is a goddess

                      Rest in Peace, themaninblack

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                      • #26
                        Wouldn't the first responsibilty of the blitz be a shot on the TE to slow his release? So the potential for the TE staying home to block vs. a chuck on him if he does release mitigates the risk of the TE - either removing him as a pass option or slowing him & giving the blitz the extra step.

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                        • #27
                          Technically the first responsibility of the blitz is to get to the QB before he releases the ball, but some blitzes do take into account the TE, but like it was said before, there are many times where it isn't counted for and a quick pass the the TE on a blitz play results in big yards for the offense.
                          Nanna Bryndís Hilmarsdóttir is a goddess

                          Rest in Peace, themaninblack

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                          • #28
                            So it would likely be tailored based on the opponent then? If you're playing SD and it's Gates lined up at TE there's a better chance he gets hit first, whereas a scrub TE isn't a concern.

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                            • #29
                              It is more of a case of having a flexible defensive scheme more than taylor- making it for your opponent, but yeah, I understand what you are saying.
                              Nanna Bryndís Hilmarsdóttir is a goddess

                              Rest in Peace, themaninblack

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