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SteelCzar76's Final 1st round Mock,...(and sticking to it)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
    Just to point this out (Not trying to be a dick) but..

    Orien Harris, Eric Taylor, Ryan McBean, Shaun Nua, Shaun Paxton, Jordan Reffett, Kyle Clement disagree wholeheartedly with the bolded statement.
    I understand your perspective Stiller,...but on the flipside,...i think Diesel (Aaron), Keisel, Van Oelhoffen, Seals, and Roye would agree that as an organization we usually have a knack for finding Quality five technique starters at DE. (Even though NONE of them were drafted in the 1st rnd by us or in Kimo's case the Bungals.)



    Rey Maualuga ILB USC
    Victor "Macho" Harris CB
    A.Q Shipley C
    Johnny Knox WR
    Zach Potter DE
    Sammie Lee Hill NT


    Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
      I understand your perspective Stiller,...but on the flipside,...i think Diesel (Aaron), Keisel, Van Oelhoffen, Seals, and Roye would agree that as an organization we usually have a knack for finding Quality five technique starters at DE. (Even though NONE of them were drafted in the 1st rnd by us or in Kimo's case the Bungals.)
      yes, but there hasn't been a successful DL Pick since Keisel. 7 years now.

      Yeah, I play WoW too.[/CENTER]

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
        yes, but there hasn't been a successful DL Pick since Keisel. 7 years now.
        Touche Stillers. But in all honesty let's evaluate what we look for in a DE in our scheme. It's a matter of finding a certain "type" of solid player to fit the said system as opposed to chasing the Julius Peppers type stud 4-3 blue chip D-lineman which are more difficult to come by.

        What i mean is,...all of the cats whom would be available to us in the 1st fit the aforementioned "solid" description as opposed to being elite talents and henceforth have nearly the same probability of becoming busts like the other players that you mentioned in your previous post. Except,...this time,...it would cost a first round selection. And it's my opinion that that is not a risk we have to take at that point in the draft.



        Rey Maualuga ILB USC
        Victor "Macho" Harris CB
        A.Q Shipley C
        Johnny Knox WR
        Zach Potter DE
        Sammie Lee Hill NT


        Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
          Touche Stillers. But in all honesty let's evaluate what we look for in a DE in our scheme. It's a matter of finding a certain "type" of solid player to fit the said system as opposed to chasing the Julius Peppers type stud 4-3 blue chip D-lineman which are more difficult to come by.

          What i mean is,...all of the cats whom would be available to us in the 1st fit the aforementioned "solid" description as opposed to being elite talents and henceforth have nearly the same probability of becoming busts like the other players that you mentioned in your previous post. Except,...this time,...it would cost a first round selection. And it's my opinion that that is not a risk we have to take at that point in the draft.
          Gilbert is the only guy that I see warranting first round consideration IMO.

          I see nothing amazing out of Tyson Jackson.. I see just a guy who will take up space.

          Gilbert I see as having the potential to be Lawrence Timmons of 3-4 DL.

          Moala is a 2nd-3rd round consideration. as he's just another "Guy"

          My opinion is, Tomlin is putting his spin on the defense. We'd have never drafted a guy like Lawrence Timmons.

          I fear Rey Maualaga busting more so than Jarron Gilbert.


          As for Maualaga.. I don't see what he could provide moreso than what Jasper Brinkley, Frantz Joseph, or Antonio Appleby could potentially bring (Brinkley especially).

          Brinkley is more cerebral, a better run stuffer, and much better in coverage. he could also play some 3-4 OLB for when LeBeau mixes things up.

          Yeah, I play WoW too.[/CENTER]

          Comment


          • #20
            I'd don't feel like jumping into this as I realize it'll go nowhere. But I'll ask SteelCzar to continue on and let us see what type of draft you'd have planned for the Steelers. We know you'd trade up for Rey, so make a trade, give us Rey, and then follow through with the rest of the picks we'd have left. Maybe you've done this but I didn't notice.
            Last edited by THav916; 04-01-2009, 10:41 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by THav916 View Post
              I'd don't feel like jumping into this as I realize it'll go nowhere. But I'll ask SteelCzar to continue on and let us see what type of draft you'd have planned for the Steelers. We know you'd trade up for Rey, so make a trade, give us Rey, and then follow through with the rest of the picks we'd have left. Maybe you've done this but I didn't notice.
              I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

              I may come off that way and I apologize.

              I'm just saying good ILB/WR/OLB/CB is deep in this draft.

              As is OG/C. DE is where it's skimpy. And with 3 new 3-4 Teams, grabbing a guy who could potentially be one of the best 3-4 DE's in the league in 2-3 years, isn't a bad choice for a first round pick.

              If the Steelers take Gilbert... I'll believe they did their homework.

              I still think he's going to fall into late round 2 and we trade a 4th or 5th+6th to get him.

              Yeah, I play WoW too.[/CENTER]

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
                I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

                I may come off that way and I apologize.

                I'm just saying good ILB/WR/OLB/CB is deep in this draft.

                As is OG/C. DE is where it's skimpy. And with 3 new 3-4 Teams, grabbing a guy who could potentially be one of the best 3-4 DE's in the league in 2-3 years, isn't a bad choice for a first round pick.

                If the Steelers take Gilbert... I'll believe they did their homework.

                I still think he's going to fall into late round 2 and we trade a 4th or 5th+6th to get him.
                Ha, i agree more with you than what SteelCzar was saying, I just knew if I gave my thoughts disagreeing with him it'd go nowhere

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by THav916 View Post
                  I'd don't feel like jumping into this as I realize it'll go nowhere. But I'll ask SteelCzar to continue on and let us see what type of draft you'd have planned for the Steelers. We know you'd trade up for Rey, so make a trade, give us Rey, and then follow through with the rest of the picks we'd have left. Maybe you've done this but I didn't notice.

                  I'd use our 3rd, fifth and 1st to move up and select Rey. Then i'd take Macho at the bottom of the second, followed by Shipley in the 4th, Johnny Knox or Dominique Edison in the 5th (comp pick) Cornelius Lewis in the 6th, and Zach Potter in the 7th.

                  Or

                  Use our 3rd, fifth and 1st to move up and select Harvin. Followed by the aforementioned players,....with Brinkley in the place of Edison or Knox.

                  I like Brinkley,.he's tackles with authority, got nice size and athleticism,....but he's no better in coverage than Rey, doesn't use his hands any better and is considered just as unrefined if not more. (Nothing that like Rey, cannot be corrected with coaching) But i've got to give Rey the edge because of his Trojan pedigree. But i could live with him (Brinkley) later,..if we went with Harvin in the 1st.
                  Last edited by SteelCzar76; 04-02-2009, 07:48 AM.



                  Rey Maualuga ILB USC
                  Victor "Macho" Harris CB
                  A.Q Shipley C
                  Johnny Knox WR
                  Zach Potter DE
                  Sammie Lee Hill NT


                  Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
                    I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

                    I may come off that way and I apologize.

                    I'm just saying good ILB/WR/OLB/CB is deep in this draft.

                    As is OG/C. DE is where it's skimpy. And with 3 new 3-4 Teams, grabbing a guy who could potentially be one of the best 3-4 DE's in the league in 2-3 years, isn't a bad choice for a first round pick.

                    If the Steelers take Gilbert... I'll believe they did their homework.

                    I still think he's going to fall into late round 2 and we trade a 4th or 5th+6th to get him.
                    No need for apologies Stillers,...we're just "Chopping things up". I'm not offended by your opinion of Maualuga,...as i'm sure that you aren't taking it personally that i'm not sold on Jarron. (Or any of the other supposed big board 3-4 DE's)



                    Rey Maualuga ILB USC
                    Victor "Macho" Harris CB
                    A.Q Shipley C
                    Johnny Knox WR
                    Zach Potter DE
                    Sammie Lee Hill NT


                    Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Yea, lots of ways to slice it up.

                      We all have our thoughts on who we like and don't like and how we want to build the team. Those thoughts then are extremely evident in our mock drafts and thoughts. I'm no different.

                      I like a strong OL, a strong front 7. I think the best pass defense is a good pass rush and think no matter how good a CB is, after 15 seconds, I'd get open on one let alone an NFL WR.

                      No wonder with that said, I'd love studs on the OL and DL early and often. And I'd like a mid-round scheme fitting guy at CB.

                      The things that stood out about this post to me...

                      I also think it's an overrated fact that we've had all this success finding DE's late in the draft. I'm glad Stiller listed all of the DE's over the past 5 years that have been busts. Whether we take one on the first day or not, I'd still like to come away from this draft with 2 DE's just because we need youth there so badly. I strongly disagree with anyone thinking it's just simple to add stud DE's later in the draft. You can't just find Aaron Smith's every year late in the draft. He's the exception, not the rule.

                      That goes hand in hand with the different philosophies of early drafting. I'm sorry to speak for others, but SteelCzar seems against OL and DL in the first and would rather go after a glamorous WR or ILB like Harvin or Rey. Our DE's don't get 15 sacks a year, but it's still just as important to have a stud in our defense. Likewise on OL, an Alex Mack isn't going to come in with a 4.5 and accumulate sacks, but I do think he can be an All-Pro. I woulda loved Merling in the first last year and/or Langford in the second.

                      That that segues into SteelCzar's thoughts about DE's...'Who's to say that those players should be picked in the first round?' Who's to say anyone should be? Gilbert might bust? Sure, but so could Harvin or Rey. Or Mack or Unger. I'm aware of everything enough to realize that no matter what I like or don't like, there are other ways to do things.

                      And just like pointing to Shipley being just as good as Mack, you can do that at most other positions, too. I think this goes back to how we'd all like to build our team. I think Joe Burnett could be just as effective as Alphonso Smith. Someone thinks Brinkley could be just as effective as Rey. Someone might think Mike Wallace could be just as effective as Percy Harvin. And Czar thinks Shipley could be just as effective as Mack.

                      This is why even though I disagree strongly with your thoughts, they are your thoughts so I didn't overanalyze your draft, as none of our thoughts on here matter anyway. It's always interesting to see how people that watch and like the same team differ in their thoughts.

                      Here's a question for you Czar, would you ever want to draft a Center or DE in the first round? The Mack/Unger/Wood combo seems like one of the best Center combo's in recent memory to me and you're against them at the very last pick in the first. As for DE, it seems like the way you view our DE's, you wouldn't want to use a pick on a DE in the first. You're pointing to guys we don't need, sexier picks, guys you personally love. I'm all about studs in the first round, I just think a stud at a position of need is the best and I think Mack/Unger/Wood/Britton/gilbert/Tyson can be studs. So what I'm getting at, is trying to figure out if most of your thoughts are just biased for players you love (Harvin and Rey), don't love the specific C's and DE's in THIS draft, or don't like C's and De's in the first round and always prefer sexier picks. Or maybe all three.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
                        I'd use our 3rd, fifth and 1st to move up and select Rey. Then i'd take Macho at the bottom of the second, followed by Shipley in the 4th, Johnny Knox or Dominique Edison in the 5th (comp pick) Cornelius Lewis in the 6th, and Zach Potter in the 7th.

                        Or

                        Use our 3rd, fifth and 1st to move up and select Harvin. Followed by the aforementioned players,....with Brinkley in the place of Edison or Knox.

                        I like Brinkley,.he's tackles with authority, got nice size and athleticism,....but he's no better in coverage than Rey, doesn't use his hands any better and is considered just as unrefined if not more. (Nothing that like Rey, cannot be corrected with coaching) But i've got to give Rey the edge because of his Trojan pedigree. But i could live with him (Brinkley) later,..if we went with Harvin in the 1st.

                        Thanks. I guess I should have just looked at your sig.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Here's a question for you Czar, would you ever want to draft a Center or DE in the first round? The Mack/Unger/Wood combo seems like one of the best Center combo's in recent memory to me and you're against them at the very last pick in the first. As for DE, it seems like the way you view our DE's, you wouldn't want to use a pick on a DE in the first. You're pointing to guys we don't need, sexier picks, guys you personally love. I'm all about studs in the first round, I just think a stud at a position of need is the best and I think Mack/Unger/Wood/Britton/gilbert/Tyson can be studs. So what I'm getting at, is trying to figure out if most of your thoughts are just biased for players you love (Harvin and Rey), don't love the specific C's and DE's in THIS draft, or don't like C's and De's in the first round and always prefer sexier picks. Or maybe all three.


                          Good question Thav. I'd have to say that it's my personal philosophy that if one is drafting lets say within the top 20 picks,..and your in need of a premier Guard, Tackle or elite Defensive lineman (That's not a tweener),...pull the trigger.

                          When it comes to Centers however,...i would never select one in the 1st no matter what the hype,...UNLESS he was the second coming of Iron Mike, the O-line was in absoloute shambles and the said player was not only the best C available, ...but lineman period.

                          It's not a matter of me prefering the "sexier" prospects per se as much as it is a matter of value. I do not consider a "Decent space eater" like Jackson, a "hyped measurable speciman" like Gilbert, any of this years Mediocre and or tiny Corners, or even truly solid Centers like Mack and Wood,.. to be of equal value to Maualuga and or Harvin.

                          And as such ,..who says we HAVE to sit idle at 32 when we can actually go after a player whom we can have a great deal of confidence will prove to be a considerable asset as opposed to a nearly flat out gamble ? Granted,...all selections are a risk to some degree,..and i believe minimizing your risks as much as possible,..but not at the sake of completely passing on rare talent.



                          Rey Maualuga ILB USC
                          Victor "Macho" Harris CB
                          A.Q Shipley C
                          Johnny Knox WR
                          Zach Potter DE
                          Sammie Lee Hill NT


                          Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
                            Good question Thav. I'd have to say that it's my personal philosophy that if one is drafting lets say within the top 20 picks,..and your in need of a premier Guard, Tackle or elite Defensive lineman (That's not a tweener),...pull the trigger.

                            When it comes to Centers however,...i would never select one in the 1st no matter what the hype,...UNLESS he was the second coming of Iron Mike, the O-line was in absoloute shambles and the said player was not only the best C available, ...but lineman period.

                            It's not a matter of me prefering the "sexier" prospects per se as much as it is a matter of value. I do not consider a "Decent space eater" like Jackson, a "hyped measurable speciman" like Gilbert, any of this years Mediocre and or tiny Corners, or even truly solid Centers like Mack and Wood,.. to be of equal value to Maualuga and or Harvin.

                            And as such ,..who says we HAVE to sit idle at 32 when we can actually go after a player whom we can have a great deal of confidence will prove to be a considerable asset as opposed to a nearly flat out gamble ? Granted,...all selections are a risk to some degree,..and i believe minimizing your risks as much as possible,..but not at the sake of completely passing on rare talent.
                            Ok, I'd say my main disagreement is how we view these players.

                            The players you don't like...I strongly disagree that they are simply flat out gambles.

                            The players you do like, I strongly disagree they are clear cut far better prospects, less risk and that much more talented.

                            I also disagree with your philosophy. Just because you don't value C's or DE's doesn't mean they don't have value. I'm sorry but I think this is what you fail to look at with an open mind. Value is overrated in my mind because no one can predict the future anyway. But in general, a pro bowl Center in the 1st round or a Pro Bowl DE in our system would make for great first round picks. I would gladly take another Aaron Smith in the first round. And while you try to deny it, I still think from your comments that you prefer glamorous and sexier picks in the first round.

                            All in all I guess that's why I like different players in the first round than you do.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by THav916 View Post
                              Ok, I'd say my main disagreement is how we view these players.

                              The players you don't like...I strongly disagree that they are simply flat out gambles.

                              The players you do like, I strongly disagree they are clear cut far better prospects, less risk and that much more talented.

                              I also disagree with your philosophy. Just because you don't value C's or DE's doesn't mean they don't have value. I'm sorry but I think this is what you fail to look at with an open mind. Value is overrated in my mind because no one can predict the future anyway. But in general, a pro bowl Center in the 1st round or a Pro Bowl DE in our system would make for great first round picks. I would gladly take another Aaron Smith in the first round. And while you try to deny it, I still think from your comments that you prefer glamorous and sexier picks in the first round.

                              All in all I guess that's why I like different players in the first round than you do.
                              Is that not the beauty of free will and or personal preference Thav ? I prefer to believe that if "One is thinking like everyone else,..they are hardly thinking for themselves".

                              We are actually in agreement in terms of Mack, and Woods' talent,..just not whether or not they are better players than those that i consider exceptional football players.

                              As far as me having a preference for the sexier picks,. in terms of Wide receivers wouldn't those picks (sexy) be Crabtree or Maclin. and out of the Backers wouldn't those invariably be Curry, Orakpo, Cush and Clay ?

                              What i'am saying is that no one else's opinion dictates which players i consider exceptionally talented and or good fits for the Steelers,...i come to those conclusions on my own by watching these kids play, various other forms of "homework", researching their mental makeup and evaluating our needs from a perspective of "what's on the horizon" in terms priority concerning said needs.

                              Granted it can be argued that we have needs in terms of youth and talent along the O-line, D-line, and in the secondary,...but i also see those same needs at WR/KR and MLB. And this year in particular,...because we are returning most of a roster that just won a World title,...i feel as though we have some breathing room to go after a player in the first whom would provide immediate impact as opposed to one whom many of the Steelernation will proclaim "Great" and or elite just simply because we drafted them,...and but yet they proceed to take three to four years to beat out an aged ,average, career overacheiving starter. LOL
                              Last edited by SteelCzar76; 04-02-2009, 12:09 PM.



                              Rey Maualuga ILB USC
                              Victor "Macho" Harris CB
                              A.Q Shipley C
                              Johnny Knox WR
                              Zach Potter DE
                              Sammie Lee Hill NT


                              Stop giving the Steelers Unger or Mack in the 1st round !

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SteelCzar76 View Post
                                Is that not the beauty of free will and or personal preference Thav ? I prefer to believe that if "One is thinking like everyone else,..they are hardly thinking for themselves".

                                We are actually in agreement in terms of Mack, and Woods' talent,..just not whether or not they are better players than those that i consider exceptional football players.

                                As far as me having a preference for the sexier picks,. in terms of Wide receivers wouldn't those picks (sexy) be Crabtree or Maclin. and out of the Backers wouldn't those invariably be Curry, Orakpo, Cush and Clay ?

                                What i'am saying is that no one else's opinion dictates which players i consider exceptionally talented and or good fits for the Steelers,...i come to those conclusions on my own by watching these kids play, various other forms of "homework", researching their mental makeup and evaluating our needs from a perspective of "what's on the horizon" in terms priority concerning said needs.

                                Granted it can be argued that we have needs in terms of youth and talent along the O-line, D-line, and in the secondary,...but i also see those same needs at WR/KR and MLB. And this year in particular,...because we are returning most of a roster that just won a World title,...i feel as though we have some breathing room to go after a player in the first whom would provide immediate impact as opposed to one whom many of the Steelernation will proclaim "Great" and or elite just simply because we drafted them,...and but yet they proceed to take three to four years to beat out an aged ,average, career overacheiving starter. LOL
                                How many WR's in the draft do you rate higher than Harvin?

                                How many LB's higher than Rey? ILB's higher than Rey?

                                What players in the draft do you personally like more than Harvin and Rey?

                                I think Harvin could be the sexiest WR in the draft and Rey 2nd defensively to Orakpo but that's a subjective ranking anyway. But the way they are flashly and dynamic and big name/big school and more in our ball park anyway.

                                Do you think a player that is a Pro Bowl player at Center is an exceptional talent? Are Kevin Mawae & Nick Mangold exceptional talents? What about Faneca in prime or Logan Mankins?

                                Mendenhall and Sweed were sexier picks last year and they didn't start. I think we're good enough that I don't expect our first round pick, no matter the position, to start right away anyway.

                                You seem to be ignoring the need for Pro Bowl quality players on each line, and/or think it's easy to get later in the draft. Also, it seems like you love Rey and Harvin and therefore want him for personal reasons.
                                Last edited by THav916; 04-02-2009, 01:42 PM.

                                Comment

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