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  • #16
    Originally posted by JK17 View Post
    Are you serious right now?

    Dobbins' speed will never be his strong aspect of the game, I said that, and I agree with it. We did draft him for his hitting and run defense, I didn't say that, but I agree with it. He was being pushed back, and he was ineffective, I said those things and agree with them.

    He has strength, I didn't say he didn't, but he didn't use it well enough in this game. His speed isn't where I'd want it to be, but that doesn't mean he has none at all. Why shouldn't we pass judgement on him? Because as hard as I was on him for this game, I don't remember ever saying players can't and don't develop. He's a second year player, and all I said was I was disapointed in what he showed in the game, and that this year he can't start, not yet at least. It's not a cut him or start him situation, it's not a one or the other thing. He'll develop, hopefully, he'll build on his technique and understanding of the defense which is what I thought his problem were. He was getting stood up by blockers, which is two things, strength and technique. The strength is there but his technique isn't. He can build on that, but he hasn't built on it enough to be effective as a starter, yet. He struggled in coverage, partly because he's a linebacker and not as fast, but partly because he didn't understand as well his coverage, or recognize the receiver's pattern, things that he'll pick up in time.

    I stand by what I said, that I was disapointed and he is not ready to start yet, but I don't remember ever saying he won't develop into a player, or we should get rid of him now.

    first let me point out that i dont think you gave up on dobbins, i know you didnt say anything about development. What i did was to exaggerate the problems and the situation at hand to point out that you took both sides in the argumet

    you said that he was getting pushed back nearly every run play.. you agreed that he was not a good pass defender.. and he has no speed.

    Just to confirm thats saying he was bad at everything a LB needs to be concerned with. And after you did so you said you wouldnt give up on him becuase hes still good and its silly to cut him..

    yeah hes young and he could develop but how long are we gona be waiting if hes not good at anything?

    Let me point out that last statement is also an exaggeration to make a point.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
      first let me point out that i dont think you gave up on dobbins, i know you didnt say anything about development. What i did was to exaggerate the problems and the situation at hand to point out that you took both sides in the argumet
      Hardly took both sides in the argument. I am still critical of Dobbins, and still maintain that he played poorly and cannot play at a starting level this year. The only thing I said, in support of Dobbins', is that he is young, and has the heart and strength to succeed, if he can develop. That's not taking both sides, or taking sides at all, it's just common sense that a player who works hard, like Dobbins does, can succeed.

      Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
      you said that he was getting pushed back nearly every run play.. you agreed that he was not a good pass defender.. and he has no speed.

      Just to confirm thats saying he was bad at everything a LB needs to be concerned with. And after you did so you said you wouldnt give up on him becuase hes still good and its silly to cut him..
      I did say he was getting pushed back, and he was not a good pass defender. That is everything he should be concerned with, and that's exactly the reason I said he cannot start this year. I wouldn't give up on him yet for a number of reasons. First of all, he does have tools to be a good linebacker. I didn't say he was good yet, but he can be somewhere down the road. Secondly, we need depth at linebacker. Despite a poor performance against Seattle, I only felt it was so poor because it was in a starting scenario. Amongst our ILB's, in my opinion we have the main five guys, Wilhelm, Cooper, Waters, Dobbins, and Siler as the guys we may carry. I don't know if we'll carry all of them, but I expect us to carry at least four. Wilhelm and Cooper will have to start the season, and I was most impressed with Waters as a linebacker in this game. That still leaves a spot for Dobbins who is a decent backup and good special teams player. There's no reason to cut him, it is silly. But it's not silly to cut him beacuse I think he's "good", because right now he still isn't. I never said he was.

      Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
      yeah hes young and he could develop but how long are we gona be waiting if hes not good at anything?

      Let me point out that last statement is also an exaggeration to make a point.
      Yea, I know that's an exageration, but who knows how long we'll be waiting? Hopefully we never have to go that deep, because, hopefully, Wilhelm and Cooper will be great, and Waters will be great as well. But, if injuries do take their course, it doesn't hurt to keep Dobbins around a couple years and let him develop, and who knows, when those guys are gone or proven ineffective, maybe he will have matured into a good linebacker. If not, he's a great special teams option as well. We're not going to have studs everywhere on the roster, especially in the depth positions. So why not let him develop?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by JK17 View Post
        Hardly took both sides in the argument. I am still critical of Dobbins, and still maintain that he played poorly and cannot play at a starting level this year. The only thing I said, in support of Dobbins', is that he is young, and has the heart and strength to succeed, if he can develop. That's not taking both sides, or taking sides at all, it's just common sense that a player who works hard, like Dobbins does, can succeed.



        I did say he was getting pushed back, and he was not a good pass defender. That is everything he should be concerned with, and that's exactly the reason I said he cannot start this year. I wouldn't give up on him yet for a number of reasons. First of all, he does have tools to be a good linebacker. I didn't say he was good yet, but he can be somewhere down the road. Secondly, we need depth at linebacker. Despite a poor performance against Seattle, I only felt it was so poor because it was in a starting scenario. Amongst our ILB's, in my opinion we have the main five guys, Wilhelm, Cooper, Waters, Dobbins, and Siler as the guys we may carry. I don't know if we'll carry all of them, but I expect us to carry at least four. Wilhelm and Cooper will have to start the season, and I was most impressed with Waters as a linebacker in this game. That still leaves a spot for Dobbins who is a decent backup and good special teams player. There's no reason to cut him, it is silly. But it's not silly to cut him beacuse I think he's "good", because right now he still isn't. I never said he was.



        Yea, I know that's an exageration, but who knows how long we'll be waiting? Hopefully we never have to go that deep, because, hopefully, Wilhelm and Cooper will be great, and Waters will be great as well. But, if injuries do take their course, it doesn't hurt to keep Dobbins around a couple years and let him develop, and who knows, when those guys are gone or proven ineffective, maybe he will have matured into a good linebacker. If not, he's a great special teams option as well. We're not going to have studs everywhere on the roster, especially in the depth positions. So why not let him develop?

        First let me just add that i thought cooper player okay, but now that im really paying attention to him.. he dosnt seem very smart.. Like not perceptive.. you know what i mean? It seems like he kinda had a light switch that turned off every time he had to adjust

        As for dobbins let me just say that i agree we shouldnt cut him i agree that he will get better and i agree that hes a quality backup.
        I will disagree with you when you said you didnt take both sides cause it felt like you didnt like the idea of dobbins to a very high degree, but seemed like you were completely content on keeping him. You may see that as not taking both sides but what i see is this: a backup isnt depth, its a potential starter. If hes not a potential starter then what is he? a backup?.. doesnt make sense to me.

        If you're gonna say that he is a potential starter .. please explain in depth how because my heads gonna be spinning on what you think of him...


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
          First let me just add that i thought cooper player okay, but now that im really paying attention to him.. he dosnt seem very smart.. Like not perceptive.. you know what i mean? It seems like he kinda had a light switch that turned off every time he had to adjust

          As for dobbins let me just say that i agree we shouldnt cut him i agree that he will get better and i agree that hes a quality backup.
          I will disagree with you when you said you didnt take both sides cause it felt like you didnt like the idea of dobbins to a very high degree, but seemed like you were completely content on keeping him. You may see that as not taking both sides but what i see is this: a backup isnt depth, its a potential starter. If hes not a potential starter then what is he? a backup?.. doesnt make sense to me.

          If you're gonna say that he is a potential starter .. please explain in depth how because my heads gonna be spinning on what you think of him...
          My stance on him, which you can feel free to check my posts for anything that cross-references what I am saying right now, is that right now, at this point in his career he cannot start, and didn't look like he could in anyway. For depth, I have no problem with him. We wouln't be able to find anyone else to give us depth anyway, and despite his poor performance, he still has time to develop. Yes he is a backup, he's not a potential starter, not yet. I never said I intend to see him starting either, but if, for some reason over the next few years, he develops to be ahead of any of the other three I mentioned before him, then by all means he should start.

          That's it. In short, He can't start now, or probably this season, but I don't want to eliminate his entire career based on one bad preseason game.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by JK17 View Post
            My stance on him, which you can feel free to check my posts for anything that cross-references what I am saying right now, is that right now, at this point in his career he cannot start, and didn't look like he could in anyway. For depth, I have no problem with him. We wouln't be able to find anyone else to give us depth anyway, and despite his poor performance, he still has time to develop. Yes he is a backup, he's not a potential starter, not yet. I never said I intend to see him starting either, but if, for some reason over the next few years, he develops to be ahead of any of the other three I mentioned before him, then by all means he should start.

            That's it. In short, He can't start now, or probably this season, but I don't want to eliminate his entire career based on one bad preseason game.
            Okay then i guess thats that, maybe i just misunderstood the severity of your earlier statements which led me to believe that you were unhappy with him... which was why i was confused as to why you said that he wasnt bad and should undoubtably stay on the team.

            Yes its one preseason game and thats what it all really boils down to.. but that still doesnt mean its not a potential sign of things to come.

            I personally feel that Dobbins knows his technique, is strong enough, and competent enough to be the starter. Since i like him, i suppose it added to my fuel to engage you in this conversation and i appologize for that.


            What you've said..
            -I disagree on that, I was very disapointed with how Dobbins played. Everytime I saw him he was in the way, or getting pushed back by a blocker, or too slow in coverage. I thought he struggled way toooo much to be a starter at this point in his career.
            - This is different from Weddle, Weddle hawked to the ball and was always in position to make the plays, whereas Dobbins was there....downfield.
            -I didn't see the motor out of Dobbins, as much as I saw it out of some of the other linebackers, like Waters who I thought played great."


            those statements gave me the impression that in your eyes Dobbins had no strenths and only weaknesses... but you wanna keep this guy you talked about like this right?
            Last edited by Average OT LB; 08-13-2007, 02:45 PM. Reason: happy to unhappy


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
              What you've said..
              -I disagree on that, I was very disapointed with how Dobbins played. Everytime I saw him he was in the way, or getting pushed back by a blocker, or too slow in coverage. I thought he struggled way toooo much to be a starter at this point in his career.
              - This is different from Weddle, Weddle hawked to the ball and was always in position to make the plays, whereas Dobbins was there....downfield.
              -I didn't see the motor out of Dobbins, as much as I saw it out of some of the other linebackers, like Waters who I thought played great."


              those statements gave me the impression that in your eyes Dobbins had no strenths and only weaknesses... but you wanna keep this guy you talked about like this right?
              Those statements though are all focused on him either starting this year, or compared to other players who I thought played significantly better, like Weddle and Waters.

              Either way, I think it now just comes down to a misunderstanding on both our parts of what constitutes supporting or attacking Dobbins, and I Don't see anywhere else the debate on him is going to lead too, so I'll switch to something new...

              What were your thoughts on the O-Line? To be honest I was fairly disapointed in them. McNeill flat out missed a block that let Rivers get killed, and we struggled in some blitz pickup. It was early in the preseason, as early as it gets, so I woulnd't expect them to be completely gelled yet anyway, though I expected a little bit more out of them. There was way to much QB pressure.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                Those statements though are all focused on him either starting this year, or compared to other players who I thought played significantly better, like Weddle and Waters.

                Either way, I think it now just comes down to a misunderstanding on both our parts of what constitutes supporting or attacking Dobbins, and I Don't see anywhere else the debate on him is going to lead too, so I'll switch to something new...

                What were your thoughts on the O-Line? To be honest I was fairly disapointed in them. McNeill flat out missed a block that let Rivers get killed, and we struggled in some blitz pickup. It was early in the preseason, as early as it gets, so I woulnd't expect them to be completely gelled yet anyway, though I expected a little bit more out of them. There was way to much QB pressure.
                I was EXTREMELY disappointed... Honestly i could rant for hours about the few minutes i just saw of the first preseason game and tell you why were not only not going to the super bowl but neither the playoffs or a winning record..

                In short, im unsatisfied. Honestly im really thinking back to the Marty's days and i understand now what we had and gave up so easily. We really took for granted all the things Marty did. Marty didnt touch the offensive skill players, he left that to the peoples who's opinion mattered (specific coaches and cam).. I felt Marty's bread and butter was the following

                - Motivation
                - Preperation
                - Communication
                - No penalties
                - Respect
                - Grit

                What i saw was a team that was unfocused and unprepared. The offensive line was the perfect example. They didnt talk, they didnt have the grit, and were penalized heavily. Since when do they just not block people, Mcneil Mr. Perfect Blocker especially?

                This all may all be stemming from a lack of respect for the head coach..


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
                  I was EXTREMELY disappointed... Honestly i could rant for hours about the few minutes i just saw of the first preseason game and tell you why were not only not going to the super bowl but neither the playoffs or a winning record..

                  In short, im unsatisfied. Honestly im really thinking back to the Marty's days and i understand now what we had and gave up so easily. We really took for granted all the things Marty did. Marty didnt touch the offensive skill players, he left that to the peoples who's opinion mattered (specific coaches and cam).. I felt Marty's bread and butter was the following

                  - Motivation
                  - Preperation
                  - Communication
                  - No penalties
                  - Respect
                  - Grit

                  What i saw was a team that was unfocused and unprepared. The offensive line was the perfect example. They didnt talk, they didnt have the grit, and were penalized heavily. Since when do they just not block people, Mcneil Mr. Perfect Blocker especially?

                  This all may all be stemming from a lack of respect for the head coach..
                  I wouldn't panic on losing Marty just yet, but I don't necesarily disagree with a lot of what you said there. If the trend continues next game, it may be time to worry a little bit about what we actaully lost in giving up Marty.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                    I wouldn't panic on losing Marty just yet, but I don't necesarily disagree with a lot of what you said there. If the trend continues next game, it may be time to worry a little bit about what we actaully lost in giving up Marty.
                    Maybe we dont have to panic about those silly penalties but i dont think its right to head into the season expecting a smooth sail.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
                      Maybe we dont have to panic about those silly penalties but i dont think its right to head into the season expecting a smooth sail.
                      Well it's not going to be a repeat of last year. For one, our schedule wasn't very hard at all last year, and we did catch a bunch of lucky breaks that helped us to get to 14-2. So smooth sail, definitely not.

                      In addition to that, we did lose Marty, who we knew could win for us, but then again, the whole reason we got rid of him was that he couldn't win in the playoffs, and him and AJ were miles apart on building a championsihp team. For both of those reasons he had to go. He couldn't get it done in the playoffs, his fault or not, his teams never have gotten it done. As far as the feud with AJ it may have seemed petty, but I don't think it was. Marty gets a lot of the sympahty from the media becasue AJ is arrogant and he is cocky. But he's also the best at what he does, and I'll take his side everytime. We couldn't win with that disfunction and pressure on Marty for a whole nother year, so one of them had to go, and it was Marty...

                      That wasn't meant to turn into an AJ vs. Marty debate, but even if we kept Marty, there wouldn't have been a smooth sail to the postseason anyway. Hopefully we can keep it together until we get there though, and let the extra experience we gained last year carry us to the Super Bowl. Hopefully.

                      As far as discipline goes though, it sure sucks losing Marty. Norv better get his act together. Soon.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                        Well it's not going to be a repeat of last year. For one, our schedule wasn't very hard at all last year, and we did catch a bunch of lucky breaks that helped us to get to 14-2. So smooth sail, definitely not.

                        In addition to that, we did lose Marty, who we knew could win for us, but then again, the whole reason we got rid of him was that he couldn't win in the playoffs, and him and AJ were miles apart on building a championsihp team. For both of those reasons he had to go. He couldn't get it done in the playoffs, his fault or not, his teams never have gotten it done. As far as the feud with AJ it may have seemed petty, but I don't think it was. Marty gets a lot of the sympahty from the media becasue AJ is arrogant and he is cocky. But he's also the best at what he does, and I'll take his side everytime. We couldn't win with that disfunction and pressure on Marty for a whole nother year, so one of them had to go, and it was Marty...

                        That wasn't meant to turn into an AJ vs. Marty debate, but even if we kept Marty, there wouldn't have been a smooth sail to the postseason anyway. Hopefully we can keep it together until we get there though, and let the extra experience we gained last year carry us to the Super Bowl. Hopefully.

                        As far as discipline goes though, it sure sucks losing Marty. Norv better get his act together. Soon.

                        I dont mean to antagonize any possible Marty vs AJ debate but I really think AJ made a mistake letting Marty go. I mean think about it maybe with Marty the coaches stay and we stay consistant...

                        Looking back on it Marty did everythig he could - he had his head piece off remember that!? he wanted to iwn so badly and i think if we gave him another shot he would've done it.

                        On that note i think AJ is a god and if he asked me to Jump off a bridge because it was good for my health or asked me to jump rope with cobras because it would improve my speed or someting i wouldnt hesitate. AJ can do no wrong in my eyes, which includes murder. If he decided to go on a little killing rampage here and there.. i would turn a blind eye..

                        okay obviously all thats kind ridiculous but honestly.. hes really good and i'm sure there was no option but to get rid of marty... and cam.. and wade.. and those other guys...


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
                          I dont mean to antagonize any possible Marty vs AJ debate but I really think AJ made a mistake letting Marty go. I mean think about it maybe with Marty the coaches stay and we stay consistant...

                          Looking back on it Marty did everythig he could - he had his head piece off remember that!? he wanted to iwn so badly and i think if we gave him another shot he would've done it.

                          On that note i think AJ is a god and if he asked me to Jump off a bridge because it was good for my health or asked me to jump rope with cobras because it would improve my speed or someting i wouldnt hesitate. AJ can do no wrong in my eyes, which includes murder. If he decided to go on a little killing rampage here and there.. i would turn a blind eye..

                          okay obviously all thats kind ridiculous but honestly.. hes really good and i'm sure there was no option but to get rid of marty... and cam.. and wade.. and those other guys...
                          I know how you feel about AJ, and I'm not going to open this up any further then, because the last thing we need is an AJ vs. Marty debate, when its over with already.

                          So to keep it rollin, haha, what was your overall opinion of the secondary. For the most part I was focused in on Weddle, so to be honest I missed a lot of how the rest of the secondary played. Obviously I was disapointed with McCree, but I thought Jammer and Florence each played decent. Florence I thought showed a lot on that interception. Even though it was nullified by his penalty that was the biggest part of his game he was missing last year, the instinct to go for the ball. Cromartie I didn't see much of, which I guess was fine, since it meant he wasn't in to much trouble ever, but Oliver and Gordon both looked pretty bad. You already know how I felt about Weddle, and Hart I was neither impressed or upset with.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                            I know how you feel about AJ, and I'm not going to open this up any further then, because the last thing we need is an AJ vs. Marty debate, when its over with already.

                            So to keep it rollin, haha, what was your overall opinion of the secondary. For the most part I was focused in on Weddle, so to be honest I missed a lot of how the rest of the secondary played. Obviously I was disapointed with McCree, but I thought Jammer and Florence each played decent. Florence I thought showed a lot on that interception. Even though it was nullified by his penalty that was the biggest part of his game he was missing last year, the instinct to go for the ball. Cromartie I didn't see much of, which I guess was fine, since it meant he wasn't in to much trouble ever, but Oliver and Gordon both looked pretty bad. You already know how I felt about Weddle, and Hart I was neither impressed or upset with.

                            Well i felt that there was a communication problem and not so much gameplanning or executing issues. since its presason we know they were running basic defense (they played quarter defense as evidenced by the touchdown) but couldnt even do that. And its not so much that mccree got beat on that play as he wasnt expecting a go pattern. If you look closely jammer never got up on the wr and instead played him as though he had help. but mcree was not even aware that he ahd to do this and was instead watching a wr streaking over the middle about to enter his zone. If they had talked and jammer had let mccree know that he was going to play as though mccree was waiting over the top then marlon would have had to been back already and not running backwards... so its a communication problem not execution in my opnion

                            as for cromartie i was slightly disappointed not in him but in the play of seneca wallace. Cro wasnt in for too long but when he was they never really tested him because they simply didnt throw unless it was to a wide open reciever who had beat someone else. Flo i was immensly pleased with because he showed the tenacity and drive i would expect from a Marty coached team.. i loved that penalty honesty because he wasnt playing 20 yards off like gordon and bumshack


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Average OT LB View Post
                              Well i felt that there was a communication problem and not so much gameplanning or executing issues. since its presason we know they were running basic defense (they played quarter defense as evidenced by the touchdown) but couldnt even do that. And its not so much that mccree got beat on that play as he wasnt expecting a go pattern. If you look closely jammer never got up on the wr and instead played him as though he had help. but mcree was not even aware that he ahd to do this and was instead watching a wr streaking over the middle about to enter his zone. If they had talked and jammer had let mccree know that he was going to play as though mccree was waiting over the top then marlon would have had to been back already and not running backwards... so its a communication problem not execution in my opnion

                              as for cromartie i was slightly disappointed not in him but in the play of seneca wallace. Cro wasnt in for too long but when he was they never really tested him because they simply didnt throw unless it was to a wide open reciever who had beat someone else. Flo i was immensly pleased with because he showed the tenacity and drive i would expect from a Marty coached team.. i loved that penalty honesty because he wasnt playing 20 yards off like gordon and bumshack
                              Agree, communication can be fixed, assuming the coaches and players take it upon themselves to work out the kinks. Almost everyone on the team is committed, and we all have good chemistry, so I expect them to do that. Although, if they ignore the communication issue, we can expect a long year.

                              Then again, its the first preseason game. It's not all supposed to be there.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by JK17 View Post
                                Agree, communication can be fixed, assuming the coaches and players take it upon themselves to work out the kinks. Almost everyone on the team is committed, and we all have good chemistry, so I expect them to do that. Although, if they ignore the communication issue, we can expect a long year.

                                Then again, its the first preseason game. It's not all supposed to be there.
                                if your first paragraph is as easy as you made it sound there wouldnt be the diversity that there is in this league..

                                but it is a preseason and thats our saving grace really becaue i dont think this communication problem is a lack of playng together.. i think its just a coach who does have a great attention to detail, especially on the defensive side of the all


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