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  • #16


    C'mon guys...enough already.

    1st off, there's a reason why there are rumors flying around that McCoy might go #1 to STL. He's the clear-cut better prospect. He's more athletic and has a more complete game. He has more upside and less weaknesses.

    I figured MLR of all people would know that Suh is not a "superior run defender" because he makes some of the videos that I watch...the same videos that show Suh getting blown off the ball on occasion and struggling to anchor against the run. McCoy has great lower body strength and understands proper leverage. No one's mistaking him for a NT, but he's explosive off the snap and can penetrate gaps or hold his ground effectively.

    I still would prefer Eric Berry over Suh, but one one condition: we play Berry at CB. We need an impact CB much more than an upgrade over Piscitelli, and Berry is quick and explosive enough to play CB. Drafting Berry would give us a young and athletic secondary. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned more on here since Berry is about the same size as Talib, only faster, more explosive and more physical.

    I agree with Caddy that Gaines Adams wasn't a "need" pick...simply put, it was the right pick and frankly the only option. Our other options were Okoye (riskier, not as big a need), Anderson (inferior talent), or Peterson (great talent, but hard to justify with the $ invested in Cadillac and needs elsehwere).

    Gaines was far from polished though. He had solid production but everyone knew he was an athlete first and a football player second. Unfortunately he never learned how to pass rush effectively.

    sig by BoneKrusher

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Beans View Post
      works for me

      hopefully that Glazers won't be cheapskates about paying #1 overall moneaahahahahahah yeah right of course they will
      If this trade really does happen what are you gonna do with your JJ sig? lol


      Mike Will & V-Jax

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      • #18
        After reading this post, I honestly dont think Suh is the target. McCoy fits our defense much better and is very good in run support and is an even better pass rusher than Suh. I have been watching a lot of film lately on the both of them and yes, it is very hard to put one ahead of the other.

        Suh is better in run support, but is also a good pass rusher.
        However, Suh has had injury history and will be 24 during his rookie season.

        McCoy is better pass rusher from the UT position and is also very good in run support. Better fit in our Tampa 2 system and he is VERY AGGRESSIVE! (Rah likes his defense to be more aggressive than Monte's tampa 2). Not only that, Rah has used the hybrid where he lines up in a 3-4 on certain situations to mike it up. McCoy can provide pressure from the 3-4 end, as he did at Oklahoma when they were flirting with the 3-4. Not saying this is the main reason, but it is an option, but he is better suited for our tampa 2 scheme.

        Also, I want to point out that McCoy is 21 years old with no history of major injuries. He was also rate as the top DT prospect if he were to declare in 2009.


        Both are fairly equal and when mike mayock says these two are the best DT prospects to come out in a while, he isn't lying. They are 10 times the prospects of Sedrick Ellis, BJ Raji and Glenn Dorsey when they were coming out and both are better, IMO, than Kevin Williams, and thats speaking high volumes, as he is the best UT in the NFL.

        Bottom line is, you can't go wrong with either Suh or McCoy, but if I was the GM and we somehow do land the number 1 pick, I am taking McCoy.

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        • #19
          Also want to add that Mark Dominik personally attended Oklahomas Bowl Game to scout McCoy and him saying Ndamkung Suh is at the top of their draft board. ? Hm, seems like it could be a smoke screen.

          Remember, last year, when they went ahead and resigned Luke McCown and signed Byron Leftwich and then worked out players like Michael Johnson and Peria Jerry and some WR's? They signed Leftwich after they had their workout with Josh Freeman. They did that as a clear smoke screen, so I see this as a similar situation.

          Also, I think that the Bucs should just wait it out before trading. Read on espn.com insider that Detroit might be looking to deal a 2nd round pick for Glenn Dorsey because it seems like they might want to protect their 80 million dollar investment Matt Stafford and go with Okung. Also, if the Rams and Bucs are talking about a trade, it shows that the Rams aren't sold on taking a DT at number 1 and March 25th is the key date, as Sam Bradford will show whether or not that he is 100%.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by etk View Post


            C'mon guys...enough already.

            1st off, there's a reason why there are rumors flying around that McCoy might go #1 to STL. He's the clear-cut better prospect. He's more athletic and has a more complete game. He has more upside and less weaknesses.

            I figured MLR of all people would know that Suh is not a "superior run defender" because he makes some of the videos that I watch...the same videos that show Suh getting blown off the ball on occasion and struggling to anchor against the run. McCoy has great lower body strength and understands proper leverage. No one's mistaking him for a NT, but he's explosive off the snap and can penetrate gaps or hold his ground effectively.

            I still would prefer Eric Berry over Suh, but one one condition: we play Berry at CB. We need an impact CB much more than an upgrade over Piscitelli, and Berry is quick and explosive enough to play CB. Drafting Berry would give us a young and athletic secondary. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned more on here since Berry is about the same size as Talib, only faster, more explosive and more physical.
            I'm absolutly stunned....!?! "He's the clear-cut better prospect. He's more athletic and has a more complete game. He has more upside and less weaknesses", are you sure you haven't got the names wrong, or maybe you've been looking at the wrong "tapes"!?!

            So Suh get's blown up on occasions, is that due to the, "occasional" double team!?!

            Suh is by far the superior run defender and allround DT, they may have different physical attributes which account for their different playing styles, but Suh will go before McCoy regardless of scheme.

            Both players are being overhyped, thats the NFL circus for you, but don't mistake who the better player/prospect is, it's not even a contest, I like McCoy, and if Suh is off the board, I'd be more than happy to have him as a Buc.

            As for Berry, he'll make a superb FS in the NFL, we already have a great one, so we don't need him!
            He was pretty dour by his standards in Montes T2, he looked out of place in the box IMO, he took poor angles in run support, and seemed to lack upper body strentgh.
            Why on earth we would want to convert him to CB is beyond me, though I think he played QB and CB in high school, maybe thats why we're happy to entertain the idea about letting JJ go to the Rams!?! (raised eye's)

            "We need an impact CB much more than an upgrade over Piscitelli" that (with respect) is the only thing I agree with you on, which is why we'll take Haden if Mc/Suh are both gone, we may trade down to do it, (if possible) otherwise we'll take him at #3.
            Last edited by Merlin; 02-22-2010, 07:58 AM.

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            • #21
              McCoy is undoubtedly better than Suh. etk is spot on. NFL scouts are beginning to say as much.

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              • #22
                I've never been on the Suh bandwagon, but I still like him as a prospect. I don't look at one being better than the other per say. I just think you take the one that best fits your scheme.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
                  You fail to mention that Suh can pressure the QB as well (he had double the sacks of McCoy this year). And this was while playing a 2-gap defense as opposed to the penetrating defense that McCoy was in. Watch this video I made for pure Suh-domination.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Gfsg0iuuI

                  EDIT: why cant I embed?
                  see the bolded part in your post? put that between [*youtube][/youtube] without the * then you too will be able to embed.
                  Stafford Sig by touchdownrams the rest of the sig by Sig Master Bone Krusher Avy by King of all avys renji


                  DEATH NOTE MAFIA SIGNUP!

                  Originally posted by njx9
                  oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.

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                  • #24
                    i've been saying berry as a CB for a while

                    also i don't care anymore. i want mccoy or suh or berry just get one of them and i'll be happy make it happen tampa

                    bonekrusher on the sig magic
                    <beans> libid dont worry man i think fondling big black men is a perfectly worthy career goal
                    <JBond> laughing so hard I am crying

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Beans View Post
                      i've been saying berry as a CB for a while

                      also i don't care anymore. i want mccoy or suh or berry just get one of them and i'll be happy make it happen tampa
                      This is pretty much how I feel at the moment. I just want to see Berry measure in at the combine first though.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by George Lippard View Post
                        McCoy is undoubtedly better than Suh. etk is spot on. NFL scouts are beginning to say as much.
                        "undoubtedly".....really!?! Would they be the same NFL scouts that have been saying Suh is possibly the best DT prospect in the last 10 odd years?

                        Etk (with respect) is as spot on as you or I, otherwise he wouldn't be wasting time on here with the rest of us "casual fans", he has an opinion like the rest of us, lets wait and play this thing out, Suh before McCoy, Berry as a FS, not a CB, and not a Buc.

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                        • #27
                          I have no idea what etk is watching. McCoy better against the run? Did you miss the legendary season that Suh had this year?

                          McCoy has two things on Suh: 1. jump off the snap and 2. better leverage (which is correctable for Suh)

                          Suh is better at everything else including: 1. strength (I have NO idea how you could dispute this)...2. instincts (he has a phenomenal sense of what play is being run compared to McCoy's constant overruns)...3. motor (NO ONE has a motor as good as Suh's in college)...4. consistency (not only consistency but dominating/taking over a game consistency).

                          Suh took over games against 1. Va Tech 2. Missouri 3. Oklahoma 4. KSU 5. Colorado 6. Texas

                          McCoy took over 2 games: 1. BYU and 2. Texas (and neither were on the level of Suh's dominance).

                          With that said, I am obviously still in love with McCoy (check the sig), but you guys need to go back and watch Suh again.
                          save Freeman

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Merlin View Post
                            I'm absolutly stunned....!?! "He's the clear-cut better prospect. He's more athletic and has a more complete game. He has more upside and less weaknesses", are you sure you haven't got the names wrong, or maybe you've been looking at the wrong "tapes"!?!

                            So Suh get's blown up on occasions, is that due to the, "occasional" double team!?!

                            Suh is by far the superior run defender and allround DT, they may have different physical attributes which account for their different playing styles, but Suh will go before McCoy regardless of scheme.

                            Both players are being overhyped, thats the NFL circus for you, but don't mistake who the better player/prospect is, it's not even a contest, I like McCoy, and if Suh is off the board, I'd be more than happy to have him as a Buc.

                            As for Berry, he'll make a superb FS in the NFL, we already have a great one, so we don't need him!
                            He was pretty dour by his standards in Montes T2, he looked out of place in the box IMO, he took poor angles in run support, and seemed to lack upper body strentgh.
                            Why on earth we would want to convert him to CB is beyond me, though I think he played QB and CB in high school, maybe thats why we're happy to entertain the idea about letting JJ go to the Rams!?! (raised eye's)

                            "We need an impact CB much more than an upgrade over Piscitelli" that (with respect) is the only thing I agree with you on, which is why we'll take Haden if Mc/Suh are both gone, we may trade down to do it, (if possible) otherwise we'll take him at #3.
                            Merlin...I figured you knew me well enough to give me the credit instead of resorting to the tried and true "wrong film" argument. All of the knowledgeable guys on this site (and Mike Mayock) are saying similar things. The masses buy the Suh hype because of his college dominance. I'm completely on that bandwagon as I think he's one of the most dominant CFB players of all time. With that being said, you have to evaluate the player critically instead of just saying "he made plays so that's that".

                            Suh gets double-teamed a ton, and he often breaks out of those double teams with elite upper body strength to club linemen. The problem I have with him is in head-to-head run blocking he often gets driven back. That's a huge concern for a potential #1 overall pick. Many of his HIGHLIGHTS show him getting driven back only to recover by shedding the block to the side. That's nice and all, but it won't fly in the NFL.

                            Suh has a great all-around game, but he's lacking 1 key attribute. McCoy is a better overall athlete and has less weaknesses. I struggle to find any weakness with McCoy, in fact. Suh is only the superior run defender if you believe that his method of shedding blockers will work for him in the NFL...I don't.

                            I don't think either player has been overhyped. People are just mistaken about Suh. He's earned every bit of praise considering his physical fitness and work ethic this past year, both on the field and in the gym.

                            Thanks for proving my point that we shouldn't draft Berry to play S. We need our SS to be like an extra linebacker at times. As hard as he tries, Berry just doesn't have the size to come up in the box like Flip often did.

                            Why would we convert him to CB? Why not? Lots of schools were recruiting him as a CB out of HS. He has elite size, speed, explosiveness, agility, quickness, playmaking ability, run support etc. for the position. Sounds like a damn good corner to me.

                            Haden is hugely overrated. I wouldn't take him in the top 15, let alone the top 5. He has extremely tight hips and it's not like he has exceptional size to make up for it. His shortcomings were masked by the elite surrounding talent on the UF defense, and he'll get burnt a lot in the NFL. Syd'quan Thompson would give us much better value later in the draft as he's a similar player.

                            Originally posted by Me Likey Rookies View Post
                            I have no idea what etk is watching. McCoy better against the run? Did you miss the legendary season that Suh had this year?

                            McCoy has two things on Suh: 1. jump off the snap and 2. better leverage (which is correctable for Suh)

                            Suh is better at everything else including: 1. strength (I have NO idea how you could dispute this)...2. instincts (he has a phenomenal sense of what play is being run compared to McCoy's constant overruns)...3. motor (NO ONE has a motor as good as Suh's in college)...4. consistency (not only consistency but dominating/taking over a game consistency).

                            Suh took over games against 1. Va Tech 2. Missouri 3. Oklahoma 4. KSU 5. Colorado 6. Texas

                            McCoy took over 2 games: 1. BYU and 2. Texas (and neither were on the level of Suh's dominance).

                            With that said, I am obviously still in love with McCoy (check the sig), but you guys need to go back and watch Suh again.
                            Since you chose to take the high road and give me the usual "what are you watching" business...how bout I ask you this...have you ever played football? I understand where you're coming from, but you're overlooking some key things.

                            Strength is not as simple as Madden 10 makes it. There's upper body strength and lower body strength. Suh has incredible upper body strength. What I'm (among others) disputing is his lower body strength. He doesn't have a powerful trunk and he doesn't get under the pads of opposing offensive linemen and drive them back. As a matter of fact, I've seen him get driven back on numerous occasions. In his Jr. year against Clemson he got taken for a ride and almost left the screen.

                            You obviously see run defense from the Suh perspective, which is throwing blockers aside and making tackles. I see run defense as plugging your gap and forcing the back to cutback or take a loss. That is how NFL football works. The defensive linemen control a gap and it is up to the linebackers to penetrate and make tackles. It's great that Suh got 85 tackles as a Senior or whatever, but it's a different ballgame in the NFL. He won't be able to physically dominate the way he did in college, and that will completely neutralize his game. No one is gonna bat Steve Hutchinson or Alan Faneca (let alone Arron Sears or Davin Joseph) to the side, so you need to anchor to have a functional defense. McCoy is MUCH better at anchoring than Suh.

                            This is my sticking point with Suh. I LOVE his upper body strength, arm length, production, motor, ability to disrupt passing lanes. I really think he's the complete player minus the lower body strength, but that's a HUGE weakness and it will hold him back from carrying over his dominance from college to the pros.

                            I'm also gonna be picky and say that McCoy is quicker, more explosive and more agile than Suh. His performance against Florida in the NC was probably the most impressive I've ever seen from a DT. Seeing a DT shoot in the backfield and disrupt plays, race down ballcarriers for TFLs on the sideline, and juke out the offense after making an INT...wow. That's an athlete you can work with.

                            Also, you mention motor, instincts and consistent dominance as major strengths for Suh, but keep in mind that college production does not equal NFL success. Nick Reed from Oregon wasn't even drafted IIRC. Miami's Kareem Brown had over 10 sacks one year...where is he? Meanwhile Calais Campbell was dogged on these forums for a "lack of production" his Jr. year.

                            sig by BoneKrusher

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                            • #29
                              ETK,

                              I am on board with you. If we were to trade up, I would take McCoy. I was a true fan of Suh and thoguht McCoy was a bit overhyped at first, until I started watching video on him. Guy is quick and fits our defensive scheme. Dude is very aggressive.

                              I honestly would be happy with either, but reembmer, McCoy is 21-22 years old, while Suh is 23-24 years old rookie and has had injury history with his ACL in the past. McCoy has bigger upside.

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                              • #30
                                etk absolutely kills it. per usual.

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