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-   -   2009 Draft: Who/What Positions are we Drafting? (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22113)

hcbrad08 04-29-2008 01:30 AM

2009 Draft: Who/What Positions are we Drafting?
I know, I know, just figured its not a bad topic to discuss (maybe discuss what we still lack)

Some of the top pro prospects for the 2009 draft at each position
BOLD=Jets should target.

1. Tim Tebow, Florida (Jr.)
2. Matthew Stafford, Georgia (Jr.)
3. Nate Davis, Ball State (Jr.)
4. Cullen Harper, Clemson
5. Curtis Painter, Purdue

Running Backs
1. Beanie Wells, OSU (Jr.)
2. C.J. Spiller, Clemson (Jr.)
3. Marlon Lucky, Nebraska
4. P.J. Hill, Wisconsin (Jr.)
5. Arian Foster, Tennessee

Wide Receivers
1. D. Heyward-Bey, Mary. (Jr.)
2. Percy Harvin, Florida (Jr.)
3. Brandon Gibson, Wash. St.
4. Brian Robiskie, OSU
5. Greg Carr, Florida State

Tight Ends
1. Cornelius Ingram, Florida
2. Travis Beckum, Wisconsin
3. Brandon Pettigrew, Ok. St.
4. Chase Coffman, Missouri
5. Bear Pascoe, Fresno State

Offensive Tackles
1. Andre Smith, Bama (Jr.)
2. Michael Oher, Ole Miss
3. Ciron Black, LSU (Jr.)
4. Alex Boone, Ohio State
5. Phil Loadholt, Oklahoma

Offensive Guards/Centers
1. Duke Robinson, Oklahoma
2. Herman Johnson, LSU
3. Alex Mack, California
4. Jeremy Perry, Oregon State
5. Cedric Dockery, Texas

Defensive Ends
1. Tyson Jackson, LSU
2. George Selvie, USF (Jr.)
3. Greg Hardy, Ole Miss (Jr.)
4. Greg Middleton, Indiana (Jr.)
5. Michael Johnson, Ga Tech

Defensive Tackles
1. Fili Moala, USC
2. Sen'Derrick Marks, Aub. (Jr.)
3. Dorrell Scott, Clemson
4. George Hypolite, Colorado
5. Terrance Taylor, Michigan
6. Demonte Bolden, Tenn.

1. Rey Maualuga, USC
2. James Laurinaitis, Ohio State

3. Brian Cushing, USC
4. Marcus Freeman, Ohio State
5. Sean Lee, Penn State

1. Taylor Mays, USC (Jr.)
2. Myron Rolle, Fla. State (Jr.)
3. Courtney Greene, Rutgers
4. Michael Hamlin, Clemson
5. Nic Harris, Oklahoma

1. Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio State
2. Mike Mickens, Cincinnati
3. Vontae Davis, Illinois (Jr.)
4. Alphonso Smith, Wake Forest
5. Jairus Byrd, Oregon (Jr.)

What are your thoughts?
Essentially what positions do you think we are going to have to bolster?


The Great Jonathan Vilma 04-29-2008 01:43 AM

To hard to say the players at this point, at least for me. Positions at this point, WR, Right OL, DL Depth, CB

derza222 04-29-2008 01:29 PM

I was actually just thinking about starting this thread. Obviously team needs are incredibly fluid right now, so I figure I'll just run through them all briefly:

QB- I'd like to hope somebody (Clemens) steps up this year. If he doesn't, regardless of how much starting potential Ainge shows (unless he actually shows he can be the starter), this probably gets a look early in '09. If Clemens or Ainge proves they can be our starter, this could get a late round look for a third QB or we could be content with Smith as an emergency guy.

RB- It seems 2009 may be the year to find our back to replace Jones and pair with Washington. That said, if Jones puts up the year he's expected to behind this line he doesn't have a ton of wear on his tires, so maybe we don't address it at all. Probably an early round pick or nothing at all, I'd guess nothing.

FB- Depends a lot on what happens with Richardson and if Caulcrick develops. If all goes well Caulcrick will be our FB of the future and a great short yardage guy for us. That said, he may not be that guy and there could be a need to pick up a starting potential guy, we look at this old school and want guys that can block but versatility never hurts either. Maybe gets a look day 2, but probably not.

WR- After not giving it a look this past draft I'm thinking this becomes a big need next draft. There should be some solid round 1 talent in 2009 and the class overall looks like it's shaping up to be better than this past year. Definitely a potential day 1 need.

TE- Taking Keller kind of came out of nowhere this year. I think he develops into a very good player, but given our affinity for creating mismatches if the right guy comes along (and can block) I'm not shocked if we take him and try and pair him with Keller. Franks, Baker, and Keller have nice complimentary skill sets and if Baker isn't in the long term plans a good all around tight end could be something we try and find. Probably mid rounds if anything, but who knows. Personally I'd hope we're good for now, but I get the feeling we're not done with this position.

LT- Hopefully Brick makes a big step forward this season. If not, a surprise need.

RT- Definitely could be a need in the early/mid rounds depending on how the Woody experiment works out. If not, I'd guess rounds 2-4.

G- A long term guy at guard could get a look mid rounds, but I think we pass this year or take a T/G guy with versatility to back up for now and potential to eventually become a starter inside.

C- I almost didn't even remember to write this, barring a terrible Mangold injury we're set.

DE- Definitely a position that could use some youth and depth, should get some early round looks next year especially after being ignored this past year.

NT- Hopefully the Jenkins scheme switch works out, and I think it will, though if it doesn't we'll be scrambling to find one in this draft with a few potential NT's in it.

OLB- This position had better be set.

ILB- Harris is a fixture inside, but we could use somebody to pair with him down the road. Shocked we passed on Goff in the fifth, as much as we may have liked Ainge. This should be a priority come draft day.

SS- Kerry Rhodes

FS- Tons of question marks here, I could easily see this getting a look relatively early if Elam or Smith doesn't step up. Ideally someone with the ball skills and centerfield ability to let Rhodes roam, though I wonder if we want a hitter to add some physicality to our secondary.

CB- A lot of bodies at this position, but big question marks as to who is going to start across from Revis. Unless someone steps up this year in a big way, could get an early round look.

A couple of guys I like:

Courtney Greene- Pretty versatile safety that can make plays and hit, would look pretty nice next to Rhodes and could fall a little in a potentially strong safety class.

Michael Crabtree- Hopefully we're not in position to draft him, but a potential stud at wideout that would solve our #1 wideout of the future problems.

Kenny Britt- Another potential wideout for the future, great size, physicality, hands, and good speed.

Beanie Wells- Ideal back for us, perfect compliment to Leon. That said, hopefully Jones runs wild behind our line and it's not a need, also I'd hope we're not in position to draft him.

Rey Malualuga- Not sure if he checks out character wise, but a potential beast next to Harris with speed and big time hitting ability.

Jasper Brinkley- Ideal 3-4 inside linebacker, coming off an injury I believe so we'll see how that affects his play. Absolutely huge.

Vontae Davis- Brother of Vernon I believe, and another physical freak. Big hitter with ball skills and reported 4.3 speed at corner.

Tyson Jackson- If he can stop making stupid plays and shows a better motor, he could be an ideal 3-4 end for us. Great talent.

If I could choose what positions we bolster, I say DE, ILB, WR, FS, CB are the ones I'd focus on big time early. Hopefully D-Rob plays at least 65% of his snaps and Vilma is a stud so we can add a second and a third to what we've got now and can address all of those day 1. If so, we're looking at a very good future for this football team, with the ability to focus on OL and RB in the 2010 draft, along with whatever doesn't pan out this year and in '09 (hopefully nothing).

BroadwayJoe10 04-29-2008 05:34 PM

I'm extremely excited about next years draft..already haha. I know we already have the guaranteed 4th from kendal and forgot exactly what the vilma deal turns out to be--is it a possible 2nd or 3rd?? and if we get that we give them our 4th?? And drob is a possible 2nd or nothing at all??

Anyways, hopefully our QB situation pans out and our Oline plays well. If that happens i see us addressing a skill position whether it be WR (should be one of our major nees) or say a moreno or wells fall (which they probably won't). I also can see tyson jackson being an option in the first or if a loadholt or Duke Robinson have a fantastic year. I wouldn't mind drafting BJ Raji so he could learn under Jenkins for a couple years, because once jenkins is gone i don't see Pouha being a starter.

Rey Maualuga is an absolute beast, but hopefully we aren't drafting high enough to get him. If jasper can come off his ACL surgery well, he could be a significant prospect in the 2nd or so. Although, i've heard rumors of pace playing a significant role as our ILB once gholston becomes and everydown OLB opposite thomas. We shall see with that.

As for WR - Darius Heyward-bay is probably my favorite prospect, becuase he would fit our needs perfectly. Percy harvin of course is a beast as well as Michael Crabtree.

derza222 04-29-2008 07:24 PM

Kendall is definitely a 4th. Vilma I think is between second or third but we're giving up a fourth next year I believe to make up for this year's if we get the second or third. D-Rob is a third next year if he plays 65% of their snaps and I think it can get up to a second but I'm not sure how. Could be wrong but if I remember correctly that's what we're looking at next year. Wouldn't mind picking up a second or third for Pennington from some team that wants a starter during TC if Clemens/Ainge shows starting capabilities either, then we'd be in great shape going into next draft, ten picks including 6 in the first 3 rounds.

Bluedevil$ 08-28-2008 12:31 AM

DE, CB, ILB, FS, and possibly RT (Woody can be moved inside) should be priorities, but if I RB like Beanie Wells or Spiller falls to us, I'd be all for picking him up.

Unless some of the underclassmen declare, this QB class sucks... the idea of drafting a QB for the future doesn't sound bad but I don't want to see the FO settle for a so/so guy

'cuse-213 09-01-2008 01:06 PM

I want Chase Daniels a Jet.

hcbrad08 09-01-2008 02:53 PM

Im a big Moreno fan for RB I have to revise my sig bc I think RB is gonna be a big need next yr. QB Im not as worried, Ratliff although he may be a flash in the pan looks good enough to compete and there are alot of rumors saying Tannenbaum wants Favre for 2 yrs.

Our needs i think are as follows
I think this draft (as it plays out now in ratings sets up well for us)

hcbrad08 10-05-2008 11:53 PM

Im going to respond to my own post...i know...I think I'd have to revise that statement by saying that we should draft DL heavy in the draft...The D has been transformed into something potentially special. My pet pieve however is when Kris Jenkins goes to the sideline, teams run right at Pouha...He's no longer a Rudy practice warrior who helps the DL...Anyway here is my projections on needs and potential picks. I keep our 2nd bc i figure the vilma and favre trades will offset second picks in 4 and 5 come from Kendall and Robertson respectively

1)Tyson Jackson: Prototypiccal 3-4 DE and would provide valuable versatility for the D coordinator with a plethora of DE's (Ellis and Coleman are older and Devito and Mosley will never start...this is a necessary for the future of the defense and to make the DLines and Ds success overall sustainable

2)B.J. Raji: This may seem odd considering Kris Jenkins has been such a success. However, when he leaves the game Pouha is exposed and having the heir apparent to Jenkins would provide us with the ability to sub in packages of 34 and 43...OLs would constantly be working and we would wear down Offenses and not be worn down ourselves.

3)Phil Loadholt: He is ranked much high than this pick merits, however he has had some concerns and hes considerd a RT I think its a good sub for Damien Woody who is in all reality just a stop gap...Loadholt had a DUI and if the Jets are lucky he will drop to them theyll do their research and realize he is their guy IN THE 3RD ROUND.

4a)Josh Mauga He has played ILB in the 3-4 and could be the best filler for Eric Barton who will be back next year but there is nothing behind him in terms of depth unless youre talking about the aging Bowens.

4b)Chip Vaugn He is a playmaker and can play the pass and the run. He's underrated because he plays at Wake but couldbe a steal and great well rounded compliment to Kerry Rhodes with depth provided by Smith and Elam

5a)Marlon LuckyHe played under Callahan at Nebraska. He'll know the blocking schemes. He has size and could be a great compliment to Leon in the Future, bring him in to run a 3 back system with 45% Jones, 45% Washington 10% Lucky and bring him along to be the big guy after Jones is gone.

5b)Cedric DockeryHe's a big Texas OG and could which seems to be the theme of this draft provide great depth and eventually succeed one of the two OG. He also has the size and athleticism to play multiple spots

6)Kevin Huber: Hes a punter I know but he played well in the bowl was named all big east and all academic...Big leg graham problems emphasis on ST all three phases they spend a late pick on the best punter in the draft. Lefty ALSO

7)Brandon Hughes He's a Oregon state corner...He projects as a number 2 at best but a better nickle which would help with Miller's injuries and questions about Poteat (Barrett most likely wont be brought back after renegotiating contract unless he takes a huge cut) Could be a sleeper

Some might say how about WR?
I think Coles will be in form next season, Cotchery is emerging as a good WR Stuckey has good chemistry with Favre, Brad Smith is being used in various ways, D clowney looked great and seemed to be the deep threat we could use (favre would like it and the other brett liked it) My point where would they play...we cut out WR pick this year...I just think we'll shy away from it.

I think we're set, with Favre the HOF, then a backup like Clemens who has had time to learn ratliff looks like he could be the future and ainge was kept for a reason

josh07039 10-06-2008 12:40 AM


Originally Posted by derza222 (Post 1047932)
Courtney Greene- Pretty versatile safety that can make plays and hit, would look pretty nice next to Rhodes and could fall a little in a potentially strong safety class.

He sucks. Can't Cover anymore for some reason. I think it may be because he gained weight in preparation for the NFL. However, It could be because Ron Girault being so solid covered over his flaws in coverage. Unless he falls a lot I don't know if I want the Jets to get him. Ill probably change my mind closer to draft day because he is a Rutgers guy, but I've been so incredibly disappointed with him(along with everyone else) this year.

katnip 11-04-2008 11:20 AM

I don't like Chris "Beanie" Wells... Cause of injury's and this years Penn State game. I'd rather have first round some1 like Tyson Jackson, or a secondary guy.

Gridiron 11-10-2008 07:33 PM

I think we have the flexibility to go with any position. It would be nice to add an impact receiver, running back, or pass-rusher, but I'm all for the BAP for every pick in this upcoming draft, no matter the position.

hcbrad08 11-18-2008 12:48 PM

I don't so...Look at what happened to the Jets when they thought they had everything worked out going from 2006-2007. They returned 21 of 22 starters with the exception of a FB that shouldnt change a team...We need to take an EAGLES draft approach and draft specific positions that lack depth and require playmakers


WR: seems to be deep...LC, JC, Stuckey, Smith and remember we do have David Clowney I think drafting a WR would be at the bottom of the list above

gsorace 11-18-2008 11:29 PM

We have depth at WR but we don't have that #1 guy.

Cotchery is good but not great.

Coles is about done.

Stuckey and Smith are OK, but they aren't starters, and we don't really know what we have with Clowney yet.

josh07039 11-19-2008 01:44 AM

I know this is a big homer pick, but Kenny Britt may be a 2nd round pick, but he has the potential to be the number 1 receiver we are looking for. However, Britt could also wind up a 1st rounder after a beastly performance at the combine. He is a man and he isn't even 40.

derza222 11-19-2008 10:44 AM

For the list you have up there hcbrad DE, S, RT, and ILB I can definitely see as positions in need of some talent. Not sure if that list is in order or not but if it is there are a few things I would change.

Nose tackle makes sense as well but I have difficulty seeing us address it very early in the draft. I wouldn't particularly mind but Jinx has been a monster so we more need a guy that's can project to be a starter down the road and provide depth for now. Round 3-ish seems about right unless a very good value presents itself, but that almost never happens with nose tackles because it's so hard to find them. Almost always a reach pick.

Right tackle is a similar situation although I'd prefer to go in that direction because a good RT we draft could step in and start with Woody shifting over to RG and just improving the overall depth and talent of our offensive line. No nose tackle that we draft would be a starter.

The one I fail to understand as a need over a WR for example is RB. We have two very capable backs running behind a solid line and Jones is not showing any signs of needing to be replaced next season. The way I see it, RB, while I'd love a nice bruiser which we don't have, is a position that you can plug a guy in year 1 and have success with him. Look at all of the rookie backs having great years, it's probably the easiest position to transition into from college given you have a solid supporting cast. Wideouts on the other hand tend to take a couple of years, typically three. Given Coles is not going to play forever, it probably makes sense to take his successor sometime soon and give him some time to develop before he has the responsibility of starting. Meanwhile, given we have no consistant #3 WR threat (not including Keller) and no solid looking potential starters on the roster the guy could play some early and learn from some solid vets. Just seems like the right move, not one the Eagles would make because all of their WR's are crap, but one that would make sense regardless of whatever depth we have.

josh07039 11-20-2008 11:45 AM

I agree that we can definitely hold off on rb. Even if TJ does start to decline, which I'm not sure he will because of his lack of wear and tear early in his career, we still have leon. I'm not saying leon can be a feature back, I'm saying we already have a young guy that can be half of a rb tandem. So basically, we can just grab a big mid/late round guy this year or next.

derza222 11-20-2008 01:59 PM


Originally Posted by josh07039 (Post 1324193)
I agree that we can definitely hold off on rb. Even if TJ does start to decline, which I'm not sure he will because of his lack of wear and tear early in his career, we still have leon. I'm not saying leon can be a feature back, I'm saying we already have a young guy that can be half of a rb tandem. So basically, we can just grab a big mid/late round guy this year or next.

Thats exactly what I want to do. A couple guys I like this year are Shonn Greene and Charles Scott. They'll probably both go earlier than I'd like to take a guy, though.

On a seperate note, a guy I like as a safety that may be there in the earlier mid-rounds depending on how much he rises is David Bruton of Notre Dame. Anybody else seen this guy at all? The little I was able to catch he looked very solid.

Also this isn't completely draft related but definitely could be. What do you think we do with Barton after the season? He's a UFA I believe, so whether or not we sign him (and how long) could be a huge factor in what our needs are come draft day because if he goes elsewhere we'll obviously need a new ILB to start next to Harris. Depending on how long we sign him too, we may need to groom a guy.

hcbrad08 11-22-2008 04:00 PM

Im sorry but I completely disagree with your approach to the draft and positions...Coles is not all but done, Cotchery is better than good he makes big plays and can get YAC...

Conversely I think RB needs to be addressed not for poor play but because TJ is over 30 even though he's not run down and Leon has not shown he can be an everydown back...I would love to see him get more touches but not be our feature back... Now when Jesse Chatman was suspended who was our backup RB?

Look at the Giants...If we had stuck with D. Ward we would have a ridiculous 3 back group and a back for the future...The Giants have Jacobs, Bradshaw and Ward... Not to mention Danny Ware!

Also RB who can get 250 + touches are more valuable to a franchise than WRs who busst more than RBs do.

We also need to bolster the trenches bc thats how you build long term success.
That would help our pass defense much more than a CB. We have a one dimensional DL and need to make it so we can rush fewer players and apply pass pressure while maintaining our rush defense up front (aka keep those same moving parts..Coleman, Jenkins and Ellis)

derza222 11-22-2008 07:58 PM


Originally Posted by hcbrad08 (Post 1327944)
Im sorry but I completely disagree with your approach to the draft and positions...Coles is not all but done, Cotchery is better than good he makes big plays and can get YAC...

Wideouts take three years to develop, and Cotchery is good but will seriously struggle without Coles in the lineup. Do you really think Coles has 4 years left after this season? Because I sure don't.

Conversely I think RB needs to be addressed not for poor play but because TJ is over 30 even though he's not run down and Leon has not shown he can be an everydown back...I would love to see him get more touches but not be our feature back... Now when Jesse Chatman was suspended who was our backup RB?

The position can be addressed when the need presents itself because backs come into the league and don't have an adjustment like WR's do. In the mid-rounds, fine. But early it makes no sense. We don't need a starter at the moment. If Jones gets injured we're in trouble, but you can say the same thing for any position. Draft a bruiser in the mid-rounds and that suffices...for now.

Look at the Giants...If we had stuck with D. Ward we would have a ridiculous 3 back group and a back for the future...The Giants have Jacobs, Bradshaw and Ward... Not to mention Danny Ware!

The Giants success stems from their system and offensive line IMO, not the backs. Our system and offensive line are starting to improve and therefore we don't need to waste an early pick on a back. The Giants have what, a fourth rounder, two sevenths, and an undrafted guy? Further proving my point that you don't need to address RB early to have a successful run game.

Also RB who can get 250 + touches are more valuable to a franchise than WRs who busst more than RBs do.

What does busting have to do with value to a franchise? The point is that a WR takes more time to develop than a RB. And again I will argue, if a team has a good system the backs don't have all that much value. Look at teams like the Chiefs when they were good, the Steelers now, and the Giants like you used before. They have success with multiple backs because they run such a good system. A good WR that can stretch the field, take the pressure off the run game, and make big plays is harder to find and therefore more valuable IMO than a back that can have success in a good system.

We also need to bolster the trenches bc thats how you build long term success.
That would help our pass defense much more than a CB. We have a one dimensional DL and need to make it so we can rush fewer players and apply pass pressure while maintaining our rush defense up front (aka keep those same moving parts..Coleman, Jenkins and Ellis)

Finally somewhere that we agree. The trenches are incredibly important. For example, a solid offensive line takes pressure off of the RB position and makes it so that you can have success with multiple backs. I agree that our defensive line is also in need of an upgrade. However, the CB example you use is pretty pointless and your rushing fewer players example only makes so much sense. Obviously if you rush fewer guys you can stick more guys in coverage but with a pass rush as successful as ours guys should be able to make plays on the ball when the QB doesn't have much time to throw and they can't so upgrades are obviously necessary. And our only need at CB is for a nickel guy that can cover slot guys on short routes that we get burned consistantly on and where pass rush, no matter how good, doesn't really matter.

My thoughts in bold.

hcbrad08 11-23-2008 03:02 AM

Neither RB or WR should be drafted before the 3rd round...Both are solid for 3 years at least and yes I think Coles could be playing in 4 years. At his level not necc but lets remember hes 31 not 37...I think there are Leon Washington's to be found every year at WR and RB...We don't need a Nickle CB enough to draft the position early. My point is that there are less busts in the trenches early on...If we are in a position where we aren't going to draft any starters we need to identify the positions where we are aging AND lack depth not just the former. If we can take safer picks early and then take a little risk later with higher reward we can maintain success and consistency at positions that really affect Wins and Losses. If Coles goes down we have Cotchery who showed that he is more of a great 2 than just ok 1 last season but last season he didnt have Keller and Stuckey in the lineup to fill in. If we lose Ellis and have to rely on Mosley and DeVito we will get beaten up on D. If we lose Jenkins FORGET the season.

I think this draft is TOP HEAVY in terms of trenchmen. If we have the chance to upgrade and get people who can contribute at RT ILB DE or NT. I think we take it and if we don't my point is that RB and WR are about equal in terms of how set we are at those positions but if you take away TJ as opposed to LC we are screwed. Im not saying losing LC isnt big but we can play without him without TJ our offense is predicatable and lacks any depth at RB.

The only trench position I would have a problem drafting early is RT UNLESS Damien Woody will not be back bc if we take any other trench position beside RT they can contribute whereas an early pick of an OL doesn't necc allow for playing time and merit a good investment. I could also see NT early (2nd round if Raji is impressive enough bc Jenkins unlike a guy like Wilfork is not in 3 downs consistently and personally I would love to have a more formidable NT (tandem). Taking Raji sets up a successor for Jenkins allows us to play a 4 man front if we feel so inclined and can keep Jenkins rested if he needs it without sacrificing as much as we do with Pouha. Same goes for DE or ILB. (Those could be even earlier-1st if Laurianitus is on the board...I don't love him but I think the Jets like OSUs LB core and coach)

I disagree with your assesment of WRs and taking 3 years to develop...maybe your confusing them with, QBs?

Eddie Royal, Desean Jackson, Donnie Avery.

WR can come in without being in camp and as Keyshawn Johnson likes to say run the 9 they can go deep or run curls and still contribute. I think the same goes for RBs bc they can come in and help right away, but to say WRs dont play well or reach their full potential until 4 years in thats a ludicris statement- arguably you could say no one reaches their "potential" until their 4th season.

Finally, and I think it bares repeating WRs bust constantly if we take one it should be late like JC. AND RB who would be #3 back who adds his own wrinkle would be a late round as well (as we search for another value liek Leon) we prevent a bust and a big money commitment to a skil position that we really don't need.

If you don't think SS, DE, NT, and ILB are more important than RB and WR then I don't think we're watching the same team... If you are just arguing that I chose to put a low need position (RB) in front of another low need position (WR) for reasons that many people would yield to (WR bust more, the further away from the trenches you are the less important you are, theres more dpeth at WR for the Jets than RB) then I think you are just arguing semantics.

derza222 11-23-2008 12:23 PM

I told you that I agreed with you trenches are more important. Not sure if you meant the only trench position you have trouble taking early out of the needs you outlined is RT or if overall it's RT, but I'd have trouble with a LT or C for sure. How would you feel about a guard?

As far as WR's taking time to develop I stand by what I said. You gave me three examples of guys this draft that are producing, none of them are producing at an elite level, and all can significantly improve their games. There are exceptions to every rule. You asked if I was thinking of QB's, I give you Matt Ryan. If you look at their stats year 3 or 4 and compare them to their rookie year I believe you will see improvement. Some guys can step in and play right away, and some aren't able to. But all will improve over the course of their first few seasons because it's a difficult position to adjust to at the pro level. I'm not the only person that thinks this, either. You say you're more comfortable with a RB not busting because WR's bust all the time, but RB's definitely bust as well, don't last as long in the league, and I believe have less value because their success largely depends on the offensive line. Plus they can be found in the mid-rounds. Wideouts certainly can too, but I just don't like taking backs early no matter what the circumstances.

As far as semantics, yeah I thought I made it pretty clear in my original post that I was talking semantics. Your original list was a nice list, my opinion was that WR is a bigger need than RB, and that's that pretty much. You disagree and that's fine. We do agree that the lines on both side could use some depth and talent, so hopefully we focus on that in the draft next year. I'm not by any means advocating taking a WR early in this draft. But depending on the guy, I could see the logic behind it moreso than I could see the logic behind taking a RB early.

Clearly we have a difference of opinion on the WR vs. RB thing but since neither of us thinks its all that critical hopefully we can just move on from that and talk some other positions.

Three things I disagree with in your initial paragraph. One is that we should draft trench guys because they bust less than other positions early on. I personally think the trenches are more important and create success for your skill guys, which is why you draft them early on. But you make the move because it most improves your team, not because there's a lower bust factor. Trenches are nice because they help you in both facets of the game on both sides of the ball. Pass rush helps pass D defensively and the trenches obviously support the run game. Offensively you give your QB more time to throw while opening up holes in the run game. Kill two birds with one stone, I love it. If you want a high-level talent at a position you go there early. Another one is I think you have a little too much faith in our WR core. We have depth but it's 2 starters and a lot of slot guys. Keller's great but he's not going to fill in for an injured WR and a starting corner is going to eat any of our other guys alive. Just an opinion there. Finally, the nickel corner thing. If you look at how Buster Davis ate us alive in the Chargers game. Steve Breaston against Arizona. How we put Revis on Welker against the Pats just so he didn't kill us. I don't think we need one enough to go there first round simply because it's not a starting position (although with the prevalence of 3 WR sets in the league it's getting there). But it's one of our top 3 or 4 non-depth needs on defense. We have a major weakness there.

Your second paragraph I agree with. Only thing I have to say there is I think we can find a competent replacement for TJ later in the draft than we can for LC. Good backup runners (that can develop into starters in the right situation) can be found in the fourth round or so relatively consistantly if you have a good system. You're going to have a harder time finding a starting WR in the fourth, especially one that's going to be able to start right away. That's how I see it, at least.

Third paragraph I agree with and the rest of it I think I pretty much covered, at least if I wanted to go there.

Just so you can see whether or not our opinion differs on needs here's my take:

CB (nickel)

I had trouble placing both secondary positions in there but that's my best shot at it. I could see right tackle moving up if we decide to kick Woody inside and start him instead of Moore. Wouldn't mind flipping it with CB either. Safety could drop significantly if Elam's level of play stays high and he proves he's a legit starting option, could rise significantly if he isn't. Inside linebacker will be at the top of the list if Barton leaves in FA and we don't find a replacement. If we don't go WR early (which I don't think is necessary but could understand) I'd rather not go there at all. On the other hand I'd like a back in the mid-rounds. There's a lot of football to be played and free agency to go through but there's my shot at it. Tear it to shreds.

hcbrad08 11-23-2008 05:36 PM

Any player who comes into the league will be better in their 4th than their 1st barring injury AND any player who is a play maker in his 1st season is rare regardless of position. That was my point and I think your point is well taken on RB depending on OL but my point was our OL is good at run blocking this year and should continue to do so...hence less prospect of a bust...again im not trying to convince you bc i think you belive wr a bigger need im just stating my reasoning...BIG WIN Arguably the most complete team in the AFC.

josh07039 11-24-2008 03:30 PM

I will try to be brief about my remarks so I'll do bullets.
1.I think you should always draft in the trenches. Every draft you need to keep retooling your line depth a bit. A guy or two for each. There is a fine line between being a grizzled veteran line and an old line.
2. We really need depth at linebacker, especially if we lose Barton. Harris being injured has really exposed our mlb depth specifically and our general linebacker.
3. Even if LC does play another 4 years I'm not sure he'll be useful. He is 31, but his style of play and the amount of shots he takes has to be considered in planing for the future.
4. I'll say it again. I don't like early runningbacks. You don't need a great runningback to have a good running game. Good Oline+ A well conceived committee=great running game.
5. The way this team has played, barring any injury or something crazy, I think we can decide on a few positions of need and go with BPA.

derza222 11-24-2008 04:31 PM

Cannot say I disagree with anything that you said there. Another thing that I think bears keeping in mind is that the most likely scenario for us is making the playoffs and not winning to the Super Bowl. Provided that happens and Favre comes back (not a stretch) we will have a pretty short window to get a ring. That being the case, a position that could have an immediate impact on the team be it as a starter or a significant role player that adds a new element to the team while potentially providing at the least a future starter is the kind of direction we may want to go in early. Allows us to improve as a team immediately while not quite sacrificing the future to do so.

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