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-   -   Replacing Quincy (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50454)

kBuc5 01-08-2012 01:39 PM

Replacing Quincy
 
What are the chances we move Foster to Blacks position and draft a ILB? Black ranked last out of all the OLBs with Hayes not far behind ranked 36th out of 42. (per Drafttek). Foster dead last as well for the ILBs, I guess you give him a pass for being a rookie. He did look good at the beginning of the season. Seems to me there are more ILBs in this years draft then OLBs.

bucfan12 01-09-2012 06:39 PM

Quincy Black's contract will make it almost impossible to cut him this offseason, so one more year of mediocirty. Remember, he was decent in 2010, I think coaching can get him back. Playing SLB won't make him an every down LB.

getting a MLB and moving Foster to the WLB will be the best scenario.

kBuc5 01-09-2012 08:38 PM

I don't recall him doing anything in 2010. Didn't think about his contract, well like you said hopefully a new coaching staff can get them turned around but more then likely another year of mediocrity.

kBuc5 01-09-2012 08:40 PM

What are the particulars of that contract? Did we guarantee a lot of up front?

Caddy 01-10-2012 08:00 AM

As far as I know this season is guaranteed, so we may as well keep him, even in a backup role if we can find someone better. It's not really a matter of not being able to get rid of him, it's just easier to keep him.

bucfan12 01-10-2012 11:13 AM

It's heavily frontloaded for the first two years of his deal, so it'd be easier to cut him next off-season financially.

brasho 01-10-2012 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2818724)
Quincy Black's contract will make it almost impossible to cut him this offseason, so one more year of mediocirty. Remember, he was decent in 2010, I think coaching can get him back. Playing SLB won't make him an every down LB.

getting a MLB and moving Foster to the WLB will be the best scenario.

Foster was/is a disaster. He can't run and he isn't stout at the point. Ruud 2.0 ie Mason Softer is not the answer for any of the LB positions except maybe Sam if we run a traditional T-2. Kuechly, a Bama LB, Burfict, etc would be big upgrades over Softer.

bucfan12 01-10-2012 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2819858)
Foster was/is a disaster. He can't run and he isn't stout at the point. Ruud 2.0 ie Mason Softer is not the answer for any of the LB positions except maybe Sam if we run a traditional T-2. Kuechly, a Bama LB, Burfict, etc would be big upgrades over Softer.

I disagree with you that Foster was a disaster. Mason Foster han tackle and hit. Black and Hayes were awful, and I know that you are a fan of Quincy Black.

Foster had a lot on his plate his rookie year without an offseason and guys develop quicker than others. I think Foster is better suited to play WLB.

Hightower in round 2 is a perfect scenario, or Dqwell Jackson in Free Agency.

kBuc5 01-10-2012 03:20 PM

Foster hit the rookie wall.. You could make the case once McCoy got injured the whole D hit the wall...

YoJoeBucsFan 01-10-2012 07:06 PM

I agree with kBucs, the entire defense was a disaster. However I think with Foster coaching played a lot into it.

brasho 01-10-2012 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2820013)
I disagree with you that Foster was a disaster. Mason Foster han tackle and hit. Black and Hayes were awful, and I know that you are a fan of Quincy Black.

Foster had a lot on his plate his rookie year without an offseason and guys develop quicker than others. I think Foster is better suited to play WLB.

Hightower in round 2 is a perfect scenario, or Dqwell Jackson in Free Agency.

Yeah, I WAS a fan of Black... I don't know who/what I was watching this season wearing #58.. pretty much anybody with a #5 on their jersey sucked this season (5, 52, 25, all of our LBs etc... I suppose Joseph was OK, but he certainly wasn't deserving of a Pro Bowl nod)

brasho 01-10-2012 07:10 PM

I didn't realize the rookie wall came after 4-5 games. Softer looks just like the decent sized, decently athletic LB, playing for a decent D, I saw from a college replay from last year... Washington Huskies vs somebody... I watched him and him only... and he failed to impress.

kBuc5 01-10-2012 08:15 PM

No one is mistaking Foster for Ray Lewis...

brasho 01-11-2012 08:24 AM

A few times I mistook Softer for Jerry Lewis.

bucfan12 01-11-2012 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2820432)
I didn't realize the rookie wall came after 4-5 games. Softer looks just like the decent sized, decently athletic LB, playing for a decent D, I saw from a college replay from last year... Washington Huskies vs somebody... I watched him and him only... and he failed to impress.

No offense, but when you said Quincy Black should have played MLB, you were terribly wrong again.

Mason Foster was beasting it the first 6 games of the year. He really struggled, just like the rest of the defense, when McCoy went down (hm, funny, several other idiots outside Tampa call him a bust when he 's healthy as well).

Foster was surrounded by garbage at OLB and the lack of veterans. He was the QB of the defense with very little experience and knowledge of the system.

kBuc5 01-11-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2821007)
No offense, but when you said Quincy Black should have played MLB, you were terribly wrong again.

Mason Foster was beasting it the first 6 games of the year. He really struggled, just like the rest of the defense, when McCoy went down (hm, funny, several other idiots outside Tampa call him a bust when he 's healthy as well).

Foster was surrounded by garbage at OLB and the lack of veterans. He was the QB of the defense with very little experience and knowledge of the system.



Agreed.. I didn't really want to rock the boat but how can watching a replay of one game against somebody (Can't remember who kinda says a lot) have you convinced Foster is soft. I'll take the wait and see approach on Foster, not many LB's come into the league and dominate.

brasho 01-12-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2821007)
No offense, but when you said Quincy Black should have played MLB, you were terribly wrong again.

Mason Foster was beasting it the first 6 games of the year. He really struggled, just like the rest of the defense, when McCoy went down (hm, funny, several other idiots outside Tampa call him a bust when he 's healthy as well).

Foster was surrounded by garbage at OLB and the lack of veterans. He was the QB of the defense with very little experience and knowledge of the system.

No, he was the onfield captain of a rapidly sinking ship. If the defense worked right, Quincy probably would have been the best choice to play Mike. The Mike shouldn't have to take on blocks and should be able to to use his speed to roam sideline to sideline and dropback in coverage. As for the decline of the Bucs D AFTER the first 6 games, isn't that right around the time that Raheem yanked the headset from Quincy and gave it to Softer? I think so.. not to say it was a huge difference, but clearly it was too much to handle for Softer.

And BTW, just using numbers, McCoy has been a bust. He's been better, but if he doesn't produce this year, he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Ryan Sims, Johnathan Sullivan, etc. It doesn't matter why a guy doesn't make plays, whether it be because of suckiness or injuries, if he doesn't make plays, he's a bust. I was against McCoy being drafted so high because I didn't see the production in college or athleticism to justify it. I've been rooting like crazy for him since then but he's done nothing to prove me wrong. I still have hopes for him but this upcoming season is make or break for him. Playing in roughly half of a team's games is bad enough (Bob Sanders) but when the production isn't there when the player is healthy...

bucfan12 01-12-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2822376)
No, he was the onfield captain of a rapidly sinking ship. If the defense worked right, Quincy probably would have been the best choice to play Mike. The Mike shouldn't have to take on blocks and should be able to to use his speed to roam sideline to sideline and dropback in coverage. As for the decline of the Bucs D AFTER the first 6 games, isn't that right around the time that Raheem yanked the headset from Quincy and gave it to Softer? I think so.. not to say it was a huge difference, but clearly it was too much to handle for Softer.

And BTW, just using numbers, McCoy has been a bust. He's been better, but if he doesn't produce this year, he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Ryan Sims, Johnathan Sullivan, etc. It doesn't matter why a guy doesn't make plays, whether it be because of suckiness or injuries, if he doesn't make plays, he's a bust. I was against McCoy being drafted so high because I didn't see the production in college or athleticism to justify it. I've been rooting like crazy for him since then but he's done nothing to prove me wrong. I still have hopes for him but this upcoming season is make or break for him. Playing in roughly half of a team's games is bad enough (Bob Sanders) but when the production isn't there when the player is healthy...

Nope. Foster took control of the defense after the 2nd half of Week 2's win over the Vikes when Black went down. And the defense improved.

I'm sorry, but after most of these comments, I seriously doubt you know a darn thing you're talking about. Black was awful without and with the head set.

McCoy being a bust? He's been hurt but production from him isn't everything pal. He was down right unblockable this year when he was on the field and Price was playing his best ball next to him. McCoy was living in the backfield and it's ashamed he got hurt again. I counted atleast 3 holding penalties against him in that Atlanta game because they could not contain him at all.

Caddy 01-12-2012 06:55 PM

McCoy was a beast before the injury. If he busts, it is because of injury, not because of lack of production.

brasho 01-14-2012 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2822450)
Nope. Foster took control of the defense after the 2nd half of Week 2's win over the Vikes when Black went down. And the defense improved.

I'm sorry, but after most of these comments, I seriously doubt you know a darn thing you're talking about. Black was awful without and with the head set.

McCoy being a bust? He's been hurt but production from him isn't everything pal. He was down right unblockable this year when he was on the field and Price was playing his best ball next to him. McCoy was living in the backfield and it's ashamed he got hurt again. I counted atleast 3 holding penalties against him in that Atlanta game because they could not contain him at all.

Dude, you've been attacking me since I've rejoined the board after the season ended. I don't really care. But when I left the board before camp started, you were a complete neophyte with ridiculous unfounded ideas... not much has changed. Quit attacking me or I'll have to go grab a few blasts from the past where you said countless idiotic things.

Yes, I believed Quincy Black was primed to explode. He played and graded out well in 2010, he was decent in 2009. He is a fantastic physical specimen. It is not absurd to think he would be good in 2011. As a matter of fact, Mark Dominik had $30 million reasons why he thought he would be pretty good in 2011. He didn't perform. Anybody can see that and everybody did.

If you want to defend Foster, have it. He showed very little after the first few games as well, even getting shutout of the tackle column somewhere around where the team's huge skid began. Perhaps you'd like to blame the roookie wall for his difficulties. Of course his and the team's major difficulties started after 6 games. But defend him, he's slow and he's soft, and he's all yours. Enjoy.

As for McCoy.... if he can't stay on the field, then he will be considered a bust. What kind of a world do you live in where missing nearly half of a team's games is considered NOT being a bust? Yeah, he has looked good AT TIMES, being very good when completely healthy... but the fact is that he has started and finished ONLY 16 games in his career, had a paltry 4 sacks, been credited with a measly 39 tackles.

So you think McCoy missing all or the majority (75%) of the team's last 20 games is what he is being paid so handsomely for? He's finished just 5 of the past 20 games. What kind of contributions can a guy make if he's constantly hurt? At this point, he's a MORE injured version of Arizona's DE/DT Andre Wadsworth. Wadsworth lasted 3 seasons in the NFL, but at least Andre managed 27 games his first two seasons (and 7 sacks).

brasho 01-14-2012 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy (Post 2822864)
McCoy was a beast before the injury. If he busts, it is because of injury, not because of lack of production.



That's my point, can't help the club if you're in the tub. Production would be nice but if we can'r rely on a guy to play the majority of our games, we should have just gone out and signed Bob Sanders.

bucfan12 01-14-2012 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2822376)
No, he was the onfield captain of a rapidly sinking ship. If the defense worked right, Quincy probably would have been the best choice to play Mike. The Mike shouldn't have to take on blocks and should be able to to use his speed to roam sideline to sideline and dropback in coverage. As for the decline of the Bucs D AFTER the first 6 games, isn't that right around the time that Raheem yanked the headset from Quincy and gave it to Softer? I think so.. not to say it was a huge difference, but clearly it was too much to handle for Softer.

And BTW, just using numbers, McCoy has been a bust. He's been better, but if he doesn't produce this year, he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Ryan Sims, Johnathan Sullivan, etc. It doesn't matter why a guy doesn't make plays, whether it be because of suckiness or injuries, if he doesn't make plays, he's a bust. I was against McCoy being drafted so high because I didn't see the production in college or athleticism to justify it. I've been rooting like crazy for him since then but he's done nothing to prove me wrong. I still have hopes for him but this upcoming season is make or break for him. Playing in roughly half of a team's games is bad enough (Bob Sanders) but when the production isn't there when the player is healthy...

Not all DTs put up the 10 sack mark anymore. McCoy opened up the rest of our d-line. With McCoy in the lineup, our RUN DEFENSE was stout. Constant pass rush and pressure. That all dissappeared when he got hurt.

Ndmakung Suh didn't produce on the stat sheet this year, but people will talk how he opened up the dline.

Caddy 01-14-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brasho (Post 2824107)
That's my point, can't help the club if you're in the tub. Production would be nice but if we can'r rely on a guy to play the majority of our games, we should have just gone out and signed Bob Sanders.

I think a distinction can be made between a player busting due to injury and a player busting because they suck. Would you rather a Vernon Gholston type bust?

brasho 01-22-2012 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caddy (Post 2824491)
I think a distinction can be made between a player busting due to injury and a player busting because they suck. Would you rather a Vernon Gholston type bust?

Hey, I'm all for McCoy becoming a monster, but a guy that can't help a team due to injury (Wadsworth, Ki-Jana Carter, etc) isn't much different than a guy that can't help a team because he sucks (Maybin, Gholston, Gaines Adams).

brasho 01-22-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucfan12 (Post 2824143)
Not all DTs put up the 10 sack mark anymore. McCoy opened up the rest of our d-line. With McCoy in the lineup, our RUN DEFENSE was stout. Constant pass rush and pressure. That all dissappeared when he got hurt.

Ndmakung Suh didn't produce on the stat sheet this year, but people will talk how he opened up the dline.

I think people were too busy talking about how he almost opened up Josh Sitton's skull with his shoe to notice he didn't put up the numbers this year. Still, Suh has 14.5 career sacks in 31 career games, never missing one due to injury.

I'm satisfied with McCoy's performance when he was healthy, but the average fan can easily point to his stat sheet and see not much impact on the stat sheet and a knowledgeable unbiased fan will tell you that he has been hurt way too much thus far.


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