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-   -   Upshaw vs Ingram (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51402)

RaiderNation 03-03-2012 07:21 PM

Upshaw vs Ingram
 
As the draft creeps closer it looks like either Alabama DE/OLB Courtney Upshaw and South Carolina DE/OLB Melvin Ingram will be the top 2 pass rushers off the board. Both these SEC prospects had outstanding Senior seasons, but are very different prospect when you put on the film.

So my question here is who would you take Upshaw or Ingram?

Here some of my thoughts on each prospect:

Courtney Upshaw may have played in the 3-4 in college, but the more I've seen of him makes me believe he should move to DE in a 4-3. Upshaw doesn't have the movement skills to coverage in the NFL, and looks thick and strong enough to be able to handle OT's. Upshaw could go as high at 7 to Jacksonville, and will not fall out of the top 15 since players like him are in high demand.

Melvin Ingram played in South Carolina 4-3 scheme, playing mostly DE, but also seeing time standing up and inside at DT. Ingram is a much more fluid athlete than Upshaw, and should translate to a 3-4 OLB position much better because of it. Ingram is a playmaker on defense that isn't the most consistent player, but usually makes a few big plays a game. Defensive weapons like Ingram are usually high on most teams needs, and having scheme versitility will enable Ingram to have more teams interested in him. Ingram could see either Buffalo at 10, Seattle at 12 or Arizona at 13 draft him in the 1st round.

RaiderNation 03-03-2012 07:24 PM

Had it in the wrong section, and thankfully got moved.....

Xenos 03-04-2012 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaiderNation (Post 2885504)
As the draft creeps closer it looks like either Alabama DE/OLB Courtney Upshaw and South Carolina DE/OLB Melvin Ingram will be the top 2 pass rushers off the board. Both these SEC prospects had outstanding Senior seasons, but are very different prospect when you put on the film.

So my question here is who would you take Upshaw or Ingram?

Here some of my thoughts on each prospect:

Courtney Upshaw may have played in the 3-4 in college, but the more I've seen of him makes me believe he should move to DE in a 4-3. Upshaw doesn't have the movement skills to coverage in the NFL, and looks thick and strong enough to be able to handle OT's. Upshaw could go as high at 7 to Jacksonville, and will not fall out of the top 15 since players like him are in high demand.

Melvin Ingram played in South Carolina 4-3 scheme, playing mostly DE, but also seeing time standing up and inside at DT. Ingram is a much more fluid athlete than Upshaw, and should translate to a 3-4 OLB position much better because of it. Ingram is a playmaker on defense that isn't the most consistent player, but usually makes a few big plays a game. Defensive weapons like Ingram are usually high on most teams needs, and having scheme versitility will enable Ingram to have more teams interested in him. Ingram could see either Buffalo at 10, Seattle at 12 or Arizona at 13 draft him in the 1st round.

I actually think Nick Perry will go before either one of them. His stats were on par with both of them this season, and he really blew up the Combine. I think he's also going to be the better pass rusher of the three. I just don't like the fact that he flat out stated that he's only a 4-3 DE. Though his agility test does seem to indicate that he's too stiff to play the 3/4 OLB position.

Ingram would be interesting as a 3/4 OLB. I hate that he has such short arms though. But at least he particpated in the cone drills unlike Upshaw who on top of not participating, also has short arms for a 3/4 OLB

But if I had to choose, I guess I would go with Ingram now if he drops to 18th.

TACKLE 03-04-2012 01:20 AM

I don't love either guy but Ingram scares me right now. He's kind of an enigma to me. He's short and stalky but is a finesse rusher who doesn't really use the power from his leverage. He's highly athletic but at the same time isn't very explosive. Not to mention his arms are very short which cause me to doubt his ability to separate from lineman at the point. I think he can be a very solid all-around player though I have doubts about his pass rush potential.

I have some question about Upshaw as a pass rusher as well but at least with him I know he is physical, strong and powerful at the point of attack. His get off is inconsistent but he shows flashes of being explosive off the snap. I just feel better about his chances of being a 8-11 sack a year guy as a DE in a 43.

Matthew Jones 03-04-2012 01:34 AM

Very tough call; at the beginning of the season I would have felt the opposite but right now I'd say Ingram is the better outside linebacker and Upshaw is the better defensive end. Upshaw has the bulk, while Ingram seems to be the smoother athlete.

ChiFan24 03-04-2012 01:44 AM

Neither guy amazes me; I'll take an explosive, rangy pass rusher over a stocky guy with technique any day. But yeah, at least Upshaw plays with power at the point of attack. I'm not really sure what it is Ingram will be able to do in the NFL.

PossibleCabbage 03-04-2012 01:56 AM

I don't think either is going to be "the guy" as a pass rusher (though both have the potential to be "the other guy"), so I'm not entirely comfortable taking either in the top 20. If I had to pick one, I would take Ingram. I think that Upshaw is going to get blocked a lot in the NFL (he got cut by OL regularly in college, I don't see that improving.) Ingram at least is a tough guy with with a non-stop motor who's going to get you effort sacks and make plays in the run game.

I think both guys are pretty overhyped right now. They'll go higher than they should just due to the positional value of pass rushers, but I think they're both pretty scheme limited.

RaiderNation 03-04-2012 02:20 AM

I agree with the posts above where these players don't really seem to amaze us, but will turn into very good NFL players. Neither will likely be elite players, but I wouldn't be surprised to see both as Pro Bowlers.

Nick Perry has the potential to be the Aldon Smith of this draft, and go before the top name prospects(Quinn, Watt, Bowers, Kerrigan). I think if Seattle doesn't draft a QB at 12, Perry could be in play to be picked.

SuperPacker 03-04-2012 03:01 AM

Im not paticuarly in love with either guy. Ingram has a big chance to bust IMO and Upshaw doesnt has high upside IMO. I'd probably say Upshaw but i wouldnt say either of them are gonna be great players in the league.

SenorGato 03-04-2012 03:24 AM

Yeah I'm on the Nick Perry wagon...

Between those two for the Jets give me Ingram.

SuperPacker 03-04-2012 03:42 AM

Yeah i'd take Nick Perry over both of them.

FUNBUNCHER 03-04-2012 04:07 AM

I see James Harrison over and over again whenever I watch Ingram. A bigger, faster James Harrison.

I don't think he has any problem converting to 34 OLB.

I see Upshaw as a starter in the NFL, but not a pro bowler. Not a gifted pass rusher, not overly explosive, but a good overall football player.

He's a piece on a good defense IMO, but not the MAN other teams scheme against.

I take Ingram.

freeupfreeney 03-04-2012 06:38 AM

This thread is Why I have Zach Brown Shooting up to the first round.

I'm a big trojan fan, and I dont get the hype around Nick Perry.

I think that Upshaw and Hightower are low 1st mid 2nd rounders.


I think Zach Brown and Whitley Marcelous and Ingram are safer bets up top.

SuperPacker 03-04-2012 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER (Post 2885774)
I see James Harrison over and over again whenever I watch Ingram. A bigger, faster James Harrison.

I don't think he has any problem converting to 34 OLB.

I see Upshaw as a starter in the NFL, but not a pro bowler. Not a gifted pass rusher, not overly explosive, but a good overall football player.

He's a piece on a good defense IMO, but not the MAN other teams scheme against.

I take Ingram.

Yeah this is spot on!

If you have a elite 3-4 defensive end already you could get Upshaw to put opposite him and be that run defender and second pass rush option. Sort of like the Jarret Johnson of the 3-4.

He would make sense for someone like the Cowboys or Packers who already have elite pass rushers on the defense.

You couldn't bring him in and expect him to be the main guy.

Trogdor 03-04-2012 06:42 AM

Ugh.

Upshaw looks like he needs to be in a 4-3 in the pros.
Perry looks stiff and REALLY struggles to get low and bend around the outside.

If you're asking about 3-4 OLBs then it's Ingram by a country mile. If you are talking "best player" regardless of position it's a different conversation. :)

SuperPacker 03-04-2012 06:55 AM

I think both could play in the 3-4. Perry has an issue because he has so much un-needed bulk but he could easily lose it and still be effective. He has so much muscle on this thighs he probably can't bend his hips but they can just put him no a salad only diet and he'll lose it in no time.

ChiFan24 03-04-2012 04:40 PM

I really don't like Mercilus or Nick Perry either. If Coples is off the board, I think I'd want Vinny Curry.

SuperPacker 03-04-2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiFan24 (Post 2886424)
I really don't like Mercilus or Nick Perry either. If Coples is off the board, I think I'd want Vinny Curry.

I don't like Curry either though. His explosion is too poor to play 3-4 and hes too weak and small to play 4-3. TBH this is a very poor pass rushing class. Last year Upshaw/Ingram etc would of been going second round.

Iamcanadian 03-07-2012 03:30 PM

I was an Upshaw lover but at the Combine these prospects separated themselves by quite a bit. Ingram was very smooth in the LBer drill while Upshaw struggled in pass coverage and is now strictly a one horse pony as a 4-3 DE.

I now see Ingram going top 10 while Upshaw drops a fair bit. Ingram's only negative I heard was his short arms, he seems to have everything else.

smith22 03-10-2012 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperPacker (Post 2886433)
I don't like Curry either though. His explosion is too poor to play 3-4 and hes too weak and small to play 4-3. TBH this is a very poor pass rushing class. Last year Upshaw/Ingram etc would of been going second round.

Curry was impressive during practice the entire week of the senior bowl. He also played well in the game. K. Reyes was also all over the field.

Grizzlegom 03-10-2012 07:03 AM

Really don't like either guy but its definitely Upshaw and its not even close for me.

Grizzlegom 03-12-2012 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor (Post 2885793)
Ugh.

Upshaw looks like he needs to be in a 4-3 in the pros.
Perry looks stiff and REALLY struggles to get low and bend around the outside.

If you're asking about 3-4 OLBs then it's Ingram by a country mile. If you are talking "best player" regardless of position it's a different conversation. :)

Why does everyone suddenly think Upshaw needs to be a 4-3 DE in the pros? Before the combine people were talking about him as a 3-4 ONLY player and that he can play any LB position in the 3-4 and that his alternate position was ILB in a 3-4 not DE because everything on the tape suggests he's not a great fit at DE because when he comes from a down stance, he struggles to get off blocks due to his lack of length and that he's much more explosive/better when coming from a stand-up position. Now he looks average athletically and a bit stiff at the combine (which I'm pretty sure we all knew he would be) and everyone is reversing course and saying he has to play DE? His best fit all along was as a strongside outside linebacker in a 3-4, curious what happened along the way that have people saying he has to play in a 4-3 now?

Trogdor 03-12-2012 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizzlegom (Post 2897130)
Why does everyone suddenly think Upshaw needs to be a 4-3 DE in the pros? Before the combine people were talking about him as a 3-4 ONLY player and that he can play any LB position in the 3-4 and that his alternate position was ILB in a 3-4 not DE because everything on the tape suggests he's not a great fit at DE because when he comes from a down stance, he struggles to get off blocks due to his lack of length and that he's much more explosive/better when coming from a stand-up position. Now he looks average athletically and a bit stiff at the combine (which I'm pretty sure we all knew he would be) and everyone is reversing course and saying he has to play DE? His best fit all along was as a strongside outside linebacker in a 3-4, curious what happened along the way that have people saying he has to play in a 4-3 now?

Before the combine I agree. He showed extremely poorly in the linebacker drills. Tight hips, slow feet, etc. His ability to drop into coverage was questionable previously and his combine performance at the drills solidified it.

Prior to that I looked at him and thought of Anthony Spencer. Nothing sudden or "fast" about him just solid ability to attack downhill and use his hands. Either way not a prospect I want to spend a high pick on. :) If I'm looking at 3-4 OLBs early then it's narrowed down to Ingram for me.

brat316 03-12-2012 09:46 AM

Bama D players scare me a bit. They are just so much bigger than everyone they face in college and once they get to the NFL, they seem..hmmm average.

If you take Upshaw for your 3-4 you better have someone like Wade Phillips, who will make sure he is always attacking, and rarely dropping back.

With Ingram, you can tell he is the better athlete, much more fluid and loose, but who knows how well he'll do in coverage. The good thing with Ingram is he has a few combination of moves, and has played inside and outside. Another guy you want always attacking, but at least he gives you a little more room to work with and might have the potential to drop into coverage.

Both guys don't have those ideal triangle numbers, but both can be solid if given the right situation to work with.

duesouth 03-12-2012 10:38 AM

I'm not sold on either one of them - but if I had to take one of them it would be Ingram.

Upshaw can take over a game - but doesn't always do it. Perhaps it's because he's not super athletic and lacking a top frame - but some games he was very quiet and I have a lingering doubt with him.

Ingram's best position for me was DT on passing downs. However, at 264 lbs - is that going to work in the NFL? When standing up I didn't think he looked as explosive - that could come with more reps though.

For sure though, this isn't the year to need a pass rusher - not a great class.


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