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-   -   BROWNS: Weeden An Upgrade Over McCoy? (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51578)

pappanorm 03-14-2012 11:04 PM

BROWNS: Weeden An Upgrade Over McCoy?
 
Right now there is no quarteback competition in Cleveland.
I am convinced that the Browns will try to land Weeden with the #37 pick in Round 2 to compete with McCoy and ultimately be the starting QB.

Not much of a gamble and it buys the BROWNS time to continue the hunt for a franchise QB in next years's draft.

Inspector71 03-14-2012 11:23 PM

How is taking a 29 year old in the EARLY 2nd round not a risk? By the time Weeden figures out how to throw anything but sideline screens, he's going to be 32 and you'll be looking for the next guy. He missed 6 years of Football to play baseball for F$%# Sake!

CowboysBeastMode 03-14-2012 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inspector71 (Post 2904306)
How is taking a 29 year old in the EARLY 2nd round not a risk? By the time Weeden figures out how to throw anything but sideline screens, he's going to be 32 and you'll be looking for the next guy. He missed 6 years of Football to play baseball for F$%# Sake!

weeden is good enough to compete with colt mccoy for the starting qb

Wrathman 03-15-2012 12:08 AM

Weeden may or may not be an upgrade, but he's not the answer at QB for the Browns regardless. Is it worth it using a late-first or early-second choice to improve your QB by just a little bit if you get lucky? I say no.

If Tannehill doesn't work out for them at a more reasonable spot in the draft than No. 4 and they didn't resolve the matter in free agency, then I think they are better served trying again next year as much as that would suck for them and their fans.

Lose the battle to try and win the war. Granted, they've been losing this battle for years now.

JHL6719 03-15-2012 12:15 AM

If an overrated system QB from the Big-12 is an upgrade over another overrated system QB from the Big-12... it'll definitely be a first.

descendency 03-15-2012 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CowboysBeastMode (Post 2904315)
weeden is good enough to compete with colt mccoy for the starting qb

Colt McCoy is an NFL backup, so if Weeden doesn't win that job running away, he should be passed on.

The team that takes him before the 4th round is full of idiots.

Granted, McCoy is the perfect career backup and Weeden is a few years from being out of the league.

holt_bruce81 03-15-2012 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency (Post 2904440)
Colt McCoy is an NFL backup, so if Weeden doesn't win that job running away, he should be passed on.

The team that takes him before the 4th round is full of idiots.

Granted, McCoy is the perfect career backup and Weeden is a few years from being out of the league.

I agree with this. Both are not NFL Caliber starters.

IrishBrowns 03-15-2012 02:26 AM

If we get a QB I sure hope it isn't Weeden.

IrishBrowns 03-15-2012 02:27 AM

so to answer your question; no

duesouth 03-15-2012 03:40 AM

Not for me. Many of the things that McCoy has had to learn, Weeden will also (going through progressions etc.).

Saints-Tigers 03-15-2012 04:05 AM

He's an upgrade, but how many guys aren't? Blaine Gabbert?

SolidGold 03-15-2012 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHL6719 (Post 2904368)
If an overrated system QB from the Big-12 is an upgrade over another overrated system QB from the Big-12... it'll definitely be a first.

Does this apply to Griffin too? No one knocks him for being a system QB from the Big 12

FUNBUNCHER 03-15-2012 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidGold (Post 2904503)
Does this apply to Griffin too? No one knocks him for being a system QB from the Big 12

Griffin has a better arm than Colt and seems to have a better feel for the downfield passing game.
McCoy didn't light it up for the Browns last season but I don't know how many 2nd year QBs would in that situation.

I still believe if you give McCoy legit targets, a run game and a solid Oline, he can be a productive QB in the mold of the Bills Fitzpatrick.

He literally willed the Longhorns to so many victories in college, it's hard for me to believe he can't get it done in the pros.

Iamcanadian 03-15-2012 07:52 AM

The real question I have is:

'Does Cleveland under Holmgren and Heckert even have a plan' or are they living in the past when QB's weren't so severely over drafted and haven't adjusted to the new reality. By the time they realize nobody is going to hand them a top QB for practically nothing, another decade will have passed with the Browns sitting squarely in last place, in their Division, for that whole period.

Holmgren's experience is that teams have traded him his starting QB's for peanuts, including Favre in Green Bay and Hasselbach in Seasttle and he still thinks he can get a QB on the cheap.

He was the wrong hire at a time when the NFL was making a massive change in how it drafted and found QB's in an NFL almost totally committed to throwing the ball under the new rules.

To get back to Weedon, if the Browns don't draft Tannehill at #4 then in order to secure Weedon, they will have to trade back into round 1 to guarantee they get Weedon and I just don't think Holmgren is prepared to do it. It is a sad case of total incompetence in the new reality of the NFL today. Sure, he might grab Weedon in round 2 if no other team has moved back up into round 1 or traded up past Cleveland to secure him before them, but it looks like he is prepared to do nothing, thinking he might get a free ride next year or the year after.

This is why my fellow Cleveland fans don't like me.:evil_laugh:

SolidGold 03-15-2012 07:57 AM

I think Holmgren puts alot of stock into his WCO approach - he wants a QB to fit the scheme rather than build a scheme around the QB. Shurmur seemed pretty inept last season by being both the head coach and offensive play caller.

I think Cousins might have leaped over Weeden - neither is worth a first round pick but if the Browns took Cousins in the second round it wouldn't be such a bad thing especially if they get Richardson and Floyd or Wright in the first

Iamcanadian 03-15-2012 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidGold (Post 2904564)
I think Holmgren puts alot of stock into his WCO approach - he wants a QB to fit the scheme rather than build a scheme around the QB. Shurmur seemed pretty inept last season by being both the head coach and offensive play caller.

I think Cousins might have leaped over Weeden - neither is worth a first round pick but if the Browns took Cousins in the second round it wouldn't be such a bad thing especially if they get Richardson and Floyd or Wright in the first

I could be wrong but I see no way Cousins has leapfrogged Weedon, he throws a terrible deep ball which hindered him in college and will be suicidal in the pros.

Where is all the love for Kendall Wright coming from??? He was expected to run his 40 at the combine in the 4.35-4.40 range as a small receiver and ran a 4.61. Unless he shows dramatic improvement at his pro day, he won't see round 1.

fear the elf 03-15-2012 08:05 AM

First of all, the Brandon Weeden talk is getting out of hand. I'm all for underdog stories, but the guy is 28 years old; three years older than Colt. And Colt has more NFL experience and knowledge, while also matching one of Weeden's biggest "strengths," maturity. All this talk that he'd easily be better than Colt is crazy.

If anyone should be drafted to push McCoy (not outright replace him), it should be Cousins.

Also, I think McCoy is getting a little short-changed here. Lets take a look at some statistics that may help soften your stance against the kid.

Here are some of Cleveland's NFL rankings that relate to his supporting cast. And yes, I know that all of these are still linked to QB play, but I still think it's a valid exercise...

Rushing Yards - 28th
YPC - 31st
OL Hits Allowed - 25th
WR Drops - 32nd

Colt has been in the NFL for 2 years with what is arguably the least talented supporting cast in the league, and because he doesn't wow you with a cannon arm, everyone assumes he has no potential.

I'm not really sold one way or the other yet, but to me it makes less sense to freak out and overdraft a 28 year old with an adequate skill set from a spread offense than to let the 25 year old have one more year with a full off-season and upgrades in talent around him.

Iamcanadian 03-15-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fear the elf (Post 2904575)
First of all, the Brandon Weeden talk is getting out of hand. I'm all for underdog stories, but the guy is 28 years old; three years older than Colt. And Colt has more NFL experience and knowledge, while also matching one of Weeden's biggest "strengths," maturity. All this talk that he'd easily be better than Colt is crazy.

If anyone should be drafted to push McCoy (not outright replace him), it should be Cousins.

Also, I think McCoy is getting a little short-changed here. Lets take a look at some statistics that may help soften your stance against the kid.

Here are some of Cleveland's NFL rankings that relate to his supporting cast. And yes, I know that all of these are still linked to QB play, but I still think it's a valid exercise...

Rushing Yards - 28th
YPC - 31st
OL Hits Allowed - 25th
WR Drops - 32nd

Colt has been in the NFL for 2 years with what is arguably the least talented supporting cast in the league, and because he doesn't wow you with a cannon arm, everyone assumes he has no potential.

I'm not really sold one way or the other yet, but to me it makes less sense to freak out and overdraft a 28 year old with an adequate skill set from a spread offense than to let the 25 year old have one more year with a full off-season and upgrades in talent around him.

The organization practically promised to replace McCoy, they know what he is and it isn't pretty in their eyes. IMO, he has no future as a starter and all the stats in the world won't change that.

As for Cousins over Weedon, it is a worst case scenario, Cousins throws a terrible deep ball which caused him all sorts of problems in college and will only get worse at the next level.

fear the elf 03-15-2012 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian (Post 2904556)
The real question I have is:

'Does Cleveland under Holmgren and Heckert even have a plan' or are they living in the past when QB's weren't so severely over drafted and haven't adjusted to the new reality. By the time they realize nobody is going to hand them a top QB for practically nothing, another decade will have passed with the Browns sitting squarely in last place, in their Division, for that whole period.

Holmgren's experience is that teams have traded him his starting QB's for peanuts, including Favre in Green Bay and Hasselbach in Seasttle and he still thinks he can get a QB on the cheap.

He was the wrong hire at a time when the NFL was making a massive change in how it drafted and found QB's in an NFL almost totally committed to throwing the ball under the new rules.

To get back to Weedon, if the Browns don't draft Tannehill at #4 then in order to secure Weedon, they will have to trade back into round 1 to guarantee they get Weedon and I just don't think Holmgren is prepared to do it. It is a sad case of total incompetence in the new reality of the NFL today. Sure, he might grab Weedon in round 2 if no other team has moved back up into round 1 or traded up past Cleveland to secure him before them, but it looks like he is prepared to do nothing, thinking he might get a free ride next year or the year after.

This is why my fellow Cleveland fans don't like me.:evil_laugh:

I don't dislike you, but I highly disagree with most of your conclusions. Also, your arguments aren't based in fact yet you present them as such.

Quote:

It is a sad case of total incompetence in the new reality of the NFL today.
It's statements like this that make me smh. This regime has done almost everything right so far except mortgage the farm for a QB, which I happen to be pleased with. Just look at how far the defense has come in two years. Bottom-dweller to quite good with a lot of young talent that can keep getting better. I'm very happy with this FO.

fear the elf 03-15-2012 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian (Post 2904581)
The organization practically promised to replace McCoy, they know what he is and it isn't pretty in their eyes. IMO, he has no future as a starter and all the stats in the world won't change that.

As for Cousins over Weedon, it is a worst case scenario, Cousins throws a terrible deep ball which caused him all sorts of problems in college and will only get worse at the next level.

I'm pretty comfortable in saying that Cousins will be a better pro than Weeden. I don't think either ends up doing much, but at least Cousins will be in the league longer than 6 years or so.

SolidGold 03-15-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian (Post 2904581)
The organization practically promised to replace McCoy, they know what he is and it isn't pretty in their eyes. IMO, he has no future as a starter and all the stats in the world won't change that.

As for Cousins over Weedon, it is a worst case scenario, Cousins throws a terrible deep ball which caused him all sorts of problems in college and will only get worse at the next level.

If the organization promised to replace McCoy why haven't they pursued Flynn or Manning? Why didn't they try to trade up to secure the rights to draft Griffin?

If Weeden was younger he would be considered a first round talent. I think he has a good skill set but his age scares me. Cousins has experience playing in cold weather, I think he could translate well to the Browns offense. He is a smart guy and can make all the throws required in that offense. Cousins has more than enough arm strength, WCO is not really predicated on the deep pass but the short/intermediate passes.

Iamcanadian 03-15-2012 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fear the elf (Post 2904585)
I don't dislike you, but I highly disagree with most of your conclusions. Also, your arguments aren't based in fact yet you present them as such.



It's statements like this that make me smh. This regime has done almost everything right so far except mortgage the farm for a QB, which I happen to be pleased with. Just look at how far the defense has come in two years. Bottom-dweller to quite good with a lot of young talent that can keep getting better. I'm very happy with this FO.

Elf, I wish I could see the Browns through your eyes where everything is rosy, I really do, but 12 years of frustration has left me bitter, not at you but at the Browns.

You still have hope where I see none, that is where we part but I don't begrudge you your feelings, I've just been a serious follower of the NFL for 55 years and my experience tells me the Browns aren't going about it the correct way and it saddens me quite a bit.

RWills 03-15-2012 08:22 AM

But the WCO is not about the deep ball, Cousins looked good short to intermediate routes but did miss on some deep balls. Weeden has a much bigger arm than Cousins...I agreaa that Weeden should not go round 1, BUT if the browns take him with 22 I wouldn't be shocked

Iamcanadian 03-15-2012 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidGold (Post 2904589)
If the organization promised to replace McCoy why haven't they pursued Flynn or Manning? Why didn't they try to trade up to secure the rights to draft Griffin?

If Weeden was younger he would be considered a first round talent. I think he has a good skill set but his age scares me. Cousins has experience playing in cold weather, I think he could translate well to the Browns offense. He is a smart guy and can make all the throws required in that offense. Cousins has more than enough arm strength, WCO is not really predicated on the deep pass but the short/intermediate passes.

They were talking extensively about Cousins on NFL Network and I'm a Michigan St. fan so I've seen it first hand, Cousins has a lot of difficulties on deep patterns where he got intercepted quite a bit. He has everything else, leadership, experience but it is hard to survive in the NFL if your deep pass just isn't there.

bitonti 03-15-2012 08:25 AM

people seem to forget Weeden had arm troubles in baseball. It actually still hurts him to throw a baseball. This isn't like Danny Watkins fighting fires for a few years and saving the tread on his tires. Weeden's arm is worn down after he threw a ba-zillion pitches in the minors. That fact, plus his age, plus his inexperience taking snaps from center means a first round pick is highly unlikely. If the BRowns (or another team) wants him in rd2, he certainly should be there.


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