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-   -   Haloti Ngata= HOF (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55352)

dregolll 01-22-2013 04:51 PM

Haloti Ngata= HOF
Is Haloti Ngata a HOF or on that road. Great physical specimen, my question is, has he done enough to get into Canton or does he need a couple more All-Pro teams to solidify this notion. In my opinion he is a 1st ballot HOF. Your opinions please.

bam bam 01-22-2013 04:55 PM

Delete this thread.

Source of request: A Ravens fan

ph90702 01-22-2013 06:58 PM

He'll probably be in the HofF one day.

WCH 01-22-2013 06:59 PM


Originally Posted by ph90702 (Post 3253917)
He'll probably be in the HofF one day.

He probably won't be; but he probably should be.

vidae 01-22-2013 07:02 PM

I could see him getting there one day, but this thread is about 5-6 years too early.

Pat Sims 90 01-22-2013 07:06 PM

Only 22 career sacks. Not Hall of Fame worthy.

bigbluedefense 01-22-2013 08:15 PM

He's not a HOFer. And quite honestly, he's a little overrated on this forum.

killxswitch 01-22-2013 08:22 PM

Great player, but how are we even talking about this yet?

FUNBUNCHER 01-22-2013 08:46 PM

I think Ngata and Vince Wilforlk will both end up in Canton, with Wilfork having the stronger case on his side.

I think how many sacks a 34 DE/NT has for some players is almost irrelevant.

Wilfork and Ngata are the prototype 34 NTs most teams are always looking for but never seem to be able to find.

phlysac 01-23-2013 01:16 AM

Was this thread started by a 49ers fan? :)

bigbuc 01-23-2013 01:20 AM

Very good player, but no HOF.

boknows34 01-23-2013 02:05 AM

Terrell Suggs is ahead of him currently and even he's still got a very long way to go before Canton even enters the conversation.

bigbluedefense 01-23-2013 12:15 PM

I think Ngata is a hell of a player. But he's overpaid, and a little overrated. He's playing on a 5 year 60 million dollar contract. That's roughly 12 million dollars a year.

That's franchise quarterback money. That's elite pass rusher money. Ngata is neither of those forces.

Ngata is great at what he does. He's great at occupying blockers, pushing the pocket, and stopping the run.

But he is not a pass rusher. It's a passing league, and you save those kind of resources for passers, pass catchers, and pass rushers. He's a 4 sack a season player. He doesn't impact the passing game enough to warrant that kind of money.

Now is he a great player? Absolutely. The best in the business at what he does (Wilfork is possibly better). But he doesn't impact the game the same way a pass rusher does, and his contributions don't translate to his contract. He's overpaid.

Would I want Ngata on my team? Of course. Would I want him on my team for 12 million dollars a year? No way. Way overpaid.

As far as interior defenders go, I'll take Geno Atkins, JJ Watt, arguably NSuh, over him. For production/$, I'll take Wilfork over him (5 years 40 million).

Raiderz4Life 01-23-2013 12:23 PM

Suh over Ngata? Dafuq?

SuperPacker 01-23-2013 12:25 PM

Apparently Suh was better this year.

bigbluedefense 01-23-2013 12:28 PM

Bc Suh at least has potential to rush the passer at an elite level. He's shown it before with his 10 sack season. Suh can take on double teams himself as well. He's been doing it consistently for the past 2 seasons.

One of the bigger myths on this forum is that Suh is an average player. That's not true at all. He's a decent pass rusher, regularly takes on 2 blockers, and has NO help on that DL. That DL blows. Every time I watch them line up wide 9, they instantly double Suh. Every play. They're not concerned about their other rushers at all.

Way too often on this forum we let personal opinions impact our assessment of players. Yeah Suh is a turd. But he's a talented turd.

We know what Ngata is. He'll never become a pass rusher. But Suh still has the potential to become an elite pass rusher. He's displayed those skills in the past, and he can recapture that with better technique and coaching.

And he can occupy blockers just as well as Ngata. He's an incredible stack and shed DT. In a 2 gap scheme, Suh can be every bit the dominant force that Ngata is, plus offer 10X more pass rush.

The wide 9 is a terrible fit for him and he's been terribly managed in Detroit, but the talent is definitely there, and he's still very productive.

bigbluedefense 01-23-2013 12:38 PM

Fletcher Cox is a name to look out for in the future. I think he has the pass rush ability to be an impact player at the position.

For me personally, I value pass rushers. You gotta rush the passer. Run stuffers are easy to find, and they're easy to replace. Your value as an occupier, or a run lane clogger isn't all great to me.

I'm not saying Ngata is a bad player. He's a great player. But his value is way overstated. He's not a pass rusher. He doesn't offer any pass rush ability.

That's just not a skillset that I hold to a high standard. I want my big money guys to rush the passer. I can't validate your worth as a defender if you're not an elite cover guy or elite pass rusher. If you're neither of those, you don't deserve the kind of money Ngata makes.

It's just bad allocation of resources.

killxswitch 01-23-2013 01:02 PM

I think it's erroneous to say Ngata offers no pass rush. His first 4 years in the league he averaged less than sacks per year. In the past 3 years he's improved that average to 5/year. Celebrated space-eating blobs like Ted Washington, Casey Hampton, Jamal Williams, Pat Williams, and even Kris Jenkins didn't/don't consistently offer the kind of pocket push that Ngata does. Ngata is definitely more in that mold than the athletic pass rushing DLman like Atkins, Watt, or Suh. But to say he offers no pass rush whatsoever is overstating it.

bigbluedefense 01-23-2013 01:06 PM

Wilfork is every bit the force that Ngata is, is every bit as versatile as Ngata is as he's also moved around along the DL, and is 20 million dollars cheaper.

If anyone has hurry #s available, I'd be interested in seeing those. Perhaps my stance would change after seeing those #s, but I never viewed Ngata as a pass rusher.

killxswitch 01-23-2013 01:09 PM

I intentionally left Wilfork off the list because I put him and Ngata in the same class. I would agree that Ngata is a bit overpaid, but Wilfork is a bargain.

FUNBUNCHER 01-23-2013 03:13 PM

What choice did Baltimore have?? Let Ngata walk?? Yes he's (slightly)overpaid, but depending where he's lined up especially at 34 end he can create instant impact for the Ravens pass rush because he nearly demands a double team.

bigbluedefense 01-23-2013 03:21 PM

All I'm saying is, he's a little overrated as a whole bc he doesn't have the same impact on the pass game the way an interior pass rusher does.

As for his contract, I think it's hard to say in hindsight whether they should have let him walk or not. I don't think the ship would sink if they let him walk but at the same time they are a better defense with him. So it's hard to say.

AntoinCD 01-23-2013 03:25 PM


Originally Posted by bigbluedefense (Post 3254570)
All I'm saying is, he's a little overrated as a whole bc he doesn't have the same impact on the pass game the way an interior pass rusher does.

As for his contract, I think it's hard to say in hindsight whether they should have let him walk or not. I don't think the ship would sink if they let him walk but at the same time they are a better defense with him. So it's hard to say.

I think this is the big issue with valuing players through contracts. If Ngata costs the Ravens x amount of dollars but they still have money to re-sign guys like Suggs, Rice, Flacco, Webb etc then is it a big deal if they overpaid?

It only really hurts if a team cripples themselves from a cap point of view to re-sign one player.

I don't think Ngata was worth the contract he got but I don't criticise the Ravens for making the move. As you mentioned they are a better defense with him than without him.

But the problem is people see the contract and assume he has been this dominating force, which he really hasn't been over the last year and a bit. It will be interesting to see the type of contracts Atkins and Watt got soon though because if Ngata is making 12 per year Atkins could realistically ask for 13 or 14 and Watt could ask for the state of Texas

Brodeur 01-23-2013 03:37 PM

Umm BBD, Fairley was better than Suh this year. By a lot...he's actually really, really good.

G Mobile 01-23-2013 04:13 PM

I can see the argument about interior guys who provide pass rush being valuable. Ngata is having a down year honestly as he has been hampered by injuries all year and it shows. Wilfork signed a huge bargain of a contract for the Patriots, but Ngata's contract wasn't that bad. There was no way in hell we were going to let him walk and I thought it was a decent deal. I just disagree generally that not being an elite pass rushing DT means you are worthless and overpaid.

Also Watt plays a completely different position than Ngata. They may both line up at 34 DE, but Watt is more akin to a 43 DE and Ngata is more of a 43 DT. Wade has Watt attack up field and make plays; it's not like Watt is 2 gaping and having to read and react.

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