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-   -   Randy Moss - Most Complete Receiver In Football In His Prime (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55771)

JordanTaber 02-27-2013 01:15 AM

Randy Moss - Most Complete Receiver In Football In His Prime
 
I want to pick up on something from another thread, because the myth that Randy Moss was some sort of one-dimensional deep threat needs to be debunked on as many forums as possible.

FUNBUNCHER wrote in the other thread:

Quote:

Randy Moss didn't work between the hashmarks. He'll tell you that. So will Cris Carter. That wasn't his game. He may have done it some, but he didn't earn his paycheck doing it.

A Randy Moss highlight is a poor substitute for actually watching the games he played in.

Most complete WR in football??? Maybe to you, but it's not really an evaluation most analysts have about his game.

He definitely wasn't a great route runner. Moss was able to get open so frequently because ALL corners gave him a 10-15 yard cushion because of his deep threat. His 2/3 catches of less than 20 yards just shows that the typical Randy Moss route was running straight ahead for roughly 17-20 yards, stopping then turning around for the football to arrive.

He wasn't beating guys in coverage because of precise route running.

I'm not knocking Moss for having elite speed and exploiting it to get open, but corners being afraid that Moss might run by them doesn't make him a great route runner, or a complete WR.

Now that Randy has slowed some, you see the glaring deficiencies in his ability to get open running clean routes.
First of all, one doesn't have to be an exceptional route runner to not be a one-dimensional deep threat. The vast majority of top receivers in the NFL are/were not great route runners.

Terrell Owens was never a very good route runner. Moss is/was definitely a better route runner than Owens.

Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, and A.J. Green are not great route runners. Anquan Boldin was never a great route runner. Dez Bryant is not a great route runner. Demaryius Thomas is not a great route runner.

You don't need to be Isaac Bruce to do more than catch deep passes.

Secondly, if being a huge deep threat was enough to get open regularly underneath, Alexander Wright, Willie Gault, James Jett, DeSean Jackson, Herkie Walls, Ron Brown, Mike Wallace, and Flipper Anderson would have also done it.

They didn't, and the reason for that is pretty obvious.

Moss has a huge wingspan, great ball skills, and he's tough. The video I posted in the other thread proved how tough he is in traffic. If you tried to make a video like that about Terrell Owens, you'd run out after 2-3 plays. Yet, hilariously, people talk about Owens's "physical brand of football."

Moss has also always been an excellent blocker...one of the better blocking wide receivers in the league.

These Moss myths all originated with people trying to find some way to knock him. I guess they felt threatened by how easily he was dominating the game. "Oh, crap, he just torched the Packers deep 3 times and single-handedly beat them. Hmmm, what can we come up with to criticize him for? Oh, that's it...they were all deep balls. I know, all he can do is catch the deep ball! He looks tall and thin, this means he must be soft. We'll just say that, although it looks like he can pretty much torch teams at will, he doesn't do the finer points of the game, because poor Jerry Rice will be so hurt."

And then he didn't help matters with his, "I play when I want to play" remark. Moss has always had the dilemma of knowing he's the greatest receiver to ever play. He probably knew it since high school. He could either be faux-humble, he could be arrogant, or he could ponder whether being the best wide receiver of all-time is really that great a station in life, and whether proving it to others, when he knew without a doubt that he was the greatest, was even worth the effort. He chose the latter.

Moss made several tough catches over the middle for the 49ers this past season, despite only seeing limited action. It's clear he can still do it. He's not as explosive as he was in Minnesota, but the same could be said for Moss in New England, and he was still able to dominate. I can't remember the 49ers successfully throwing a jump ball to him even once. Kaepernick and Smith's fades were so horrible it was insane.

And the first thing you really lose with age is agility, not straight-line speed. Guys who stay in shape can maintain great straight-line speed into their 40s.

So if anything is going to go with age, it's a receiver's quickness out of his breaks...i.e., route running.

dan77733 02-27-2013 01:33 AM

Owens > Moss

Unlike Moss, on the field, Owens never took plays off or quit and he used his God given skill and talent 100% of the time on the field. Something that Moss has never done. Granted, Owens was an asshole but so was Moss. Hell, few top tier receivers arent assholes. If anything, its expected.

Work ethic and conditioning wise, I would say that the only WR in history thats better than Owens would be the true GREATEST WR OF ALL TIME - JERRY RICE. And this shouldnt come as a surprise to anyone because at least Owens learned, trained and listened to Rice.

If Moss would have had the work ethic of Rice or even Owens and would have listened more to Cris Carter when he was a Viking, he easily could/should/would have been the best but he didnt and as awesome as Moss was at times during his career, there were also a lot of times when he was average or didnt even try. See Kaepernick INT in the Super Bowl. Moss DIDNT even make any effort to even make an attempt at that pass.

As a 49ers fan, I love me some me and would always take Owens over Moss. I didnt want Moss a year ago and hope Baalke/Harbaugh arent stupid enough to bring him back just so can "go through the motions" on a weekly basis.

As for "complete" receiver, the best I have seen is Calvin Johnson. Speed, agility, strength, hands, jumping ability, route running, ability to break tackles, etc. Calvin Johnson broke Rice's receiving yards record with crap as the other receivers. Imagine what he would do if the Lions actually had a legitimate second WR to take pressure and the focus off Johnson. Megatron would crush both Owens and Moss combined.

Megatron > Owens > Moss

thetedginnshow 02-27-2013 01:34 AM

Guys, I think we have a Big Fat Phony.

descendency 02-27-2013 01:36 AM

Moss did more to hurt his own image than anything he did on the football field.

I know it makes people mad, but I contend (and will continue to) that Randy Moss was the greatest player to ever step foot on the field. For a career, obviously Jerry Rice was a better player at his position than Moss. But if I had one game, I want Moss. He ran one route because no one could cover it. If someone could cover it, he might have considered running a second one.

I watched him burn 3 guys in coverage to make a catch for a TD. It was his first touchdown as a Patriots player. He literally embarrassed the Jets secondary that day.

mqtirishfan 02-27-2013 01:38 AM

I want you to re-read what you wrote, keeping in mind that the argument you're trying to make is that Randy Moss was not a one-dimensional receiver
Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanTaber (Post 3284162)
First of all, one doesn't have to be an exceptional route runner to not be a one-dimensional deep threat. The vast majority of top receivers in the NFL are/were not great route runners.

Terrell Owens was never a very good route runner. Moss is/was definitely a better route runner than Owens.

Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, and A.J. Green are not great route runners. Anquan Boldin was never a great route runner. Dez Bryant is not a great route runner. Demaryius Thomas is not a great route runner.

You don't need to be Isaac Bruce to do more than catch deep passes.

Secondly, if being a huge deep threat was enough to get open regularly underneath, Alexander Wright, Willie Gault, James Jett, DeSean Jackson, Herkie Walls, Ron Brown, Mike Wallace, and Flipper Anderson would have also done it.

They didn't, and the reason for that is pretty obvious.

Moss has a huge wingspan, great ball skills, and he's tough. The video I posted in the other thread proved how tough he is in traffic. If you tried to make a video like that about Terrell Owens, you'd run out after 2-3 plays. Yet, hilariously, people talk about Owens's "physical brand of football."


These Moss myths all originated with people trying to find some way to knock him. I guess they felt threatened by how easily he was dominating the game. "Oh, crap, he just torched the Packers deep 3 times and single-handedly beat them. Hmmm, what can we come up with to criticize him for? Oh, that's it...they were all deep balls. I know, all he can do is catch the deep ball! He looks tall and thin, this means he must be soft. We'll just say that, although it looks like he can pretty much torch teams at will, he doesn't do the finer points of the game, because poor Jerry Rice will be so hurt."

And then he didn't help matters with his, "I play when I want to play" remark. Moss has always had the dilemma of knowing he's the greatest receiver to ever play. He probably knew it since high school. He could either be faux-humble, he could be arrogant, or he could ponder whether being the best wide receiver of all-time is really that great a station in life, and whether proving it to others, when he knew without a doubt that he was the greatest, was even worth the effort. He chose the latter.

And the first thing you really lose with age is agility, not straight-line speed. Guys who stay in shape can maintain great straight-line speed into their 40s.

So if anything is going to go with age, it's a receiver's quickness out of his breaks...i.e., route running.

This is probably 90% of your argument, and none of it even comes close to discussing the point at hand. Seriously, it's like one gigantic misdirect. What does any of this do to dispel the notion that Randy Moss was anything but a one-dimensional receiver?

dan77733 02-27-2013 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency
I watched him burn 3 guys in coverage to make a catch for a TD. It was his first touchdown as a Patriots player. He literally embarrassed the Jets secondary that day.

Living in NY, I remember this but at the same time, it was a Jets secondary that wasnt exactly good so while as impressive as what Moss did back then was, at the same time, its not saying much.

descendency 02-27-2013 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan77733 (Post 3284171)
Living in NY, I remember this but at the same time, it was a Jets secondary that wasnt exactly good so while as impressive as what Moss did back then was, at the same time, its not saying much.

Yeah, I wouldn't call the Jets secondary that year that good. I don't even remember if Revis played that day. It was just crazy to see Moss run away from 3 guys.

JordanTaber 02-27-2013 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mqtirishfan (Post 3284169)
I want you to re-read what you wrote, keeping in mind that the argument you're trying to make is that Randy Moss was not a one-dimensional receiver


This is probably 90% of your argument, and none of it even comes close to discussing the point at hand. Seriously, it's like one gigantic misdirect. What does any of this do to dispel the notion that Randy Moss was anything but a one-dimensional receiver?

It was in response to Funbuncher's ridiculous explanation for why 77% of Moss's career receptions went for under 20 yards.

"All he does is catch the deep ball"...except for the fact that more than three quarters of his career catches weren't deep balls.

756 career receptions for under 20 yards...that would rank 35th in NFL history all by itself.

That was my argument, aside from showing the video of plays with him going into traffic and making the catch, then holding on despite getting crushed.

Funbuncher claimed Moss was just able to produce underneath because corners gave him a cushion for fear of the deep ball, but if that were the case, other guys who terrified corners deep...guys even faster than Moss...would have produced in those areas, too.

They didn't.

And then Funbuncher turned it into, "Moss is one-dimensional because he's not a great route runner." Well, newsflash, people: Very few receivers are great route runners, including the top ones.

Brothgar 02-27-2013 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descendency (Post 3284173)
Yeah, I wouldn't call the Jets secondary that year that good. I don't even remember if Revis played that day. It was just crazy to see Moss run away from 3 guys.

IIRC Revis played for a half or something like that then pulled a hammy.

If Moss tried his entire career he'd be considered the best of all time. But he didn't. This goes deeper than taking a play or two off. Eventually the physical talent fades and things like rout running, hard work (keeping your body that way), and just WR skills take over. There is a reason why TO was playing high caliber football at 36 while currently Randy Moss was a non factor coming off a year away from football.

JordanTaber 02-27-2013 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brothgar (Post 3284178)
IIRC Revis played for a half or something like that then pulled a hammy.

If Moss tried his entire career he'd be considered the best of all time. But he didn't. This goes deeper than taking a play or two off. Eventually the physical talent fades and things like rout running, hard work (keeping your body that way), and just WR skills take over. There is a reason why TO was playing high caliber football at 36 while currently Randy Moss was a non factor coming off a year away from football.

How did Owens do this past preseason after being gone from football for a year?

Brothgar 02-27-2013 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanTaber (Post 3284182)
How did Owens do this past preseason after being gone from football for a year?

He was 38 years old. Hell even even Issac Bruce didn't make it to 39. I'm not even 100% sure Rice did.

JordanTaber 02-27-2013 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brothgar (Post 3284185)
He was 38 years old. Hell even even Issac Bruce didn't make it to 39. I'm not even 100% sure Rice did.

How did he do in Buffalo when he was 35?

Brothgar 02-27-2013 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanTaber (Post 3284192)
How did he do in Buffalo when he was 35?

Better than Randy Moss did at 35.

JordanTaber 02-27-2013 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brothgar (Post 3284193)
Better than Randy Moss did at 35.

Randy Moss only started 2 games. He played limited snaps. Owens started every game.

Owens was not very effective in Buffalo at 35.

Monomach 02-27-2013 02:20 AM

Jordantaber:


Brothgar 02-27-2013 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanTaber (Post 3284195)
Randy Moss only started 2 games. He played limited snaps. Owens started every game.

Owens was not very effective in Buffalo at 35.

No but he was still an NFL starter much more than one could say for Moss.

But as a direct comparison of age to age Randy Moss only had one year at the same age as TO where he out performed Owens after the 2007 season when (if I did the math right) he was only 30 year old.

niel89 02-27-2013 02:57 AM

Most dangerous sure. But the guy quit and wasted 3 years of his prime. Effort matters when talking about a complete player, especially when you say he is better than Jerry Rice.

Jerry Rice was a better and more productive WR. He produced into his 40s. Moss is a clear #2 for me though.

The Alex 02-27-2013 03:47 AM

Not this guy again...

Ness 02-27-2013 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monomach (Post 3284197)
Jordantaber:


Hahahahahaha.

FUNBUNCHER 02-27-2013 05:01 AM

'Most complete receiver' means Randy Moss did EVERYTHING well a WR is expected to do on a football field.
That means catching the football, route running, elusiveness/run after the catch, beating double teams, red zone/3rd down efficiency and blocking.

Randy Moss is the greatest deep threat to ever play the game because of his speed and length, but he wasn't the most complete WR to ever play.

You can't be considered 'complete' if you admit to taking plays off, or if we can SEE you take plays off if you feel the ball isn't coming to you.

Cornerbacks and safeties must have loved to see Moss jog off the LOS after the snap because they knew the could roll coverage off him.

The fact that Moss could half-ass it for much of his career and produce at the level he did is a testament to his greatness, but he wasn't the most complete WR in football, ever.

BallerT1215 02-27-2013 12:53 PM

Randy Moss ran fly routes and jumped over every CB for the ball at its highest point. He did that as good as anyone ever has in the NFL. He had freak speed with that long frame.

Most Complete? Not by a longshot.

Terrell Owens was more of a complete WR than Randy Moss.

Ness 02-27-2013 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER (Post 3284230)
'Most complete receiver' means Randy Moss did EVERYTHING well a WR is expected to do on a football field.
That means catching the football, route running, elusiveness/run after the catch, beating double teams, red zone/3rd down efficiency and blocking.

Randy Moss is the greatest deep threat to ever play the game because of his speed and length, but he wasn't the most complete WR to ever play.

You can't be considered 'complete' if you admit to taking plays off, or if we can SEE you take plays off if you feel the ball isn't coming to you.

Cornerbacks and safeties must have loved to see Moss jog off the LOS after the snap because they knew the could roll coverage off him.

The fact that Moss could half-ass it for much of his career and produce at the level he did is a testament to his greatness, but he wasn't the most complete WR in football, ever.

Remember when Randy Moss walked off the field against the Redskins before time expired?

robert pancake gallery 02-27-2013 01:03 PM

barry sanders is one dimensional all he does is dance in the backfield and lose yards

Saints-Tigers 02-27-2013 01:15 PM

How is TO more complete than Moss? TO doesn't even have good hands.

The TO myths bother me more than anything. The dude is strong as an ox and jacked, so people think that means he was constantly bulling guys over like Anquan Boldin, when he was really one handing the ball like a bread loaf, running away from guys, and then tip toeing out of bounds.

Yes, Randy did everything well as far as being a receiver. He could run every route effectively, was dominant in the redzone, a dominant deep threat, and really dangerous in space.

Jerry Rice was better, but that's it.

BallerT1215 02-27-2013 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers (Post 3284844)
How is TO more complete than Moss? TO doesn't even have good hands.

The TO myths bother me more than anything. The dude is strong as an ox and jacked, so people think that means he was constantly bulling guys over like Anquan Boldin, when he was really one handing the ball like a bread loaf, running away from guys, and then tip toeing out of bounds.

Yes, Randy did everything well as far as being a receiver. He could run every route effectively, was dominant in the redzone, a dominant deep threat, and really dangerous in space.

Jerry Rice was better, but that's it.

TO could run any route there was and would do it precisely.

He had the speed to run away from people, and I saw plenty of time where he used his size to throw CB's off him similar to what you see Calvin do now a days.

His hands were not the greatest but he was a COMPLETE WR.


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