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-   -   Jonathan Cooper is an elite prospect. (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55804)

SenorGato 02-28-2013 06:28 PM

Jonathan Cooper is an elite prospect.
 
A couple of months ago I started thinking that Cooper > Warmack as a G prospect, which I made known on multiple boards. There's power to his game, but that is secondary to the athleticism and intelligence. He does freakish, athletic things on tape that, maybe due to a lack of experience, I just have no seen out of a G prospect in recent memory (including the "best since Hutchinson" candidates like DeCastro and Iupati).

There's other aspects I enjoy about Cooper that are more subtle maybe:

- Comes from a program that is and has been producing some really quality to high end athletes for the NFL in very recent years (basically, they have a hot hand). Hakeem Nicks, Marvin Austin before he messed up and slipped out of the first, Quinton Coples, Gio Bernard, TJ Yates (for a clear non-first round QB he's extremely likable), Gio Bernard, Zac Brown, Cam Thomas, Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter, and even Greg Little are all players with quality or better upside in the NFL from within the past not even 5 years.

- He's an Academic All American and a high character/makeup player. His post-combine interviews outline his ability to come up with and achieve goals (he never threw up 35 reps until combine according to him) and self assess himself objectively (wanted to run a 4.9, ran a 5.11).

- He's a highly intelligent player on the field. This FO piece outlines one of my favorite individual plays/actions from any OL prospect in recent memory - his downfield blocking for Gio Bernard on a screen against Duke:

Quote:

Cooper is No. 64, bringing up the rear of the three linemen working to the right flat on this screen pass to fellow top prospect Giovanni Bernard. As the play progresses, Cooper demonstrates a skill beyond that of athleticism -Ė selectivity.

Cooper diagnoses the first opportunity downfield and shows the restraint not to bite. The guard can tell that the defender (No. 38) has no angle to his running back.

This may not be a fantastic physical feat, but itís a great display of subtlety. Cooper doesnít get a good block downfield, but his ability to process information and use that in the scope of his athleticism is among the reasons why he has top-shelf potential.
http://www.footballo....onathan-cooper

That FO piece covers alot of what there is to like about Cooper on the field. He's got the hands and hand strength to be a high end interior OL prospect. He's got the on field intelligence to diagnose and the athletic ability to translate what he diagnoses on the field into a positive action and result. He's as fundamentally sound and his game as technique driven as it is driven by his athleticism - which speaks both to his coaches' ability and then his ability to translate coaching. His body is projectable - rare in the NFL draft and often only seen in the most physically gifted young talents - and as the FO piece points out there is a strong belief that he can get stronger in his lower body (specifically the thighs) and his core. His movements on the field are with purpose, explosiveness, and efficiency - three qualities to love in any player.

Most definitely I would take Cooper over Warmack. The way I see it he was the best player on UNC's offense even over Bernard, the more obvious candidate because he gets the ball. They do things with Cooper that you just do not see with other Gs and he makes it happen. That's a truly elite prospect to me and in a draft that lacks truly elite prospects I have zero qualms about this guy being the pick.

So basically, 6 weeks before the draft I'm on the Mingo or Cooper train at 9 with Cooper being the safer option. That's IF the FO is not into Geno Smith, who I lean towards buying as a quality QB prospect who can give this team the average, efficient QB production the roster has been dying for since '08.

Black Bolt 02-28-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorGato (Post 3287436)
A couple of months ago I started thinking that Cooper > Warmack as a G prospect, which I made known on multiple boards. There's power to his game, but that is secondary to the athleticism and intelligence. He does freakish, athletic things on tape that, maybe due to a lack of experience, I just have no seen out of a G prospect in recent memory (including the "best since Hutchinson" candidates like DeCastro and Iupati).

There's other aspects I enjoy about Cooper that are more subtle maybe:

- Comes from a program that is and has been producing some really quality to high end athletes for the NFL in very recent years (basically, they have a hot hand). Hakeem Nicks, Marvin Austin before he messed up and slipped out of the first, Quinton Coples, Gio Bernard, TJ Yates (for a clear non-first round QB he's extremely likable), Gio Bernard, Zac Brown, Cam Thomas, Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter, and even Greg Little are all players with quality or better upside in the NFL from within the past not even 5 years.

- He's an Academic All American and a high character/makeup player. His post-combine interviews outline his ability to come up with and achieve goals (he never threw up 35 reps until combine according to him) and self assess himself objectively (wanted to run a 4.9, ran a 5.11).

- He's a highly intelligent player on the field. This FO piece outlines one of my favorite individual plays/actions from any OL prospect in recent memory - his downfield blocking for Gio Bernard on a screen against Duke:



http://www.footballo....onathan-cooper

That FO piece covers alot of what there is to like about Cooper on the field. He's got the hands and hand strength to be a high end interior OL prospect. He's got the on field intelligence to diagnose and the athletic ability to translate what he diagnoses on the field into a positive action and result. He's as fundamentally sound and his game as technique driven as it is driven by his athleticism - which speaks both to his coaches' ability and then his ability to translate coaching. His body is projectable - rare in the NFL draft and often only seen in the most physically gifted young talents - and as the FO piece points out there is a strong belief that he can get stronger in his lower body (specifically the thighs) and his core. His movements on the field are with purpose, explosiveness, and efficiency - three qualities to love in any player.

Most definitely I would take Cooper over Warmack. The way I see it he was the best player on UNC's offense even over Bernard, the more obvious candidate because he gets the ball. They do things with Cooper that you just do not see with other Gs and he makes it happen. That's a truly elite prospect to me and in a draft that lacks truly elite prospects I have zero qualms about this guy being the pick.

So basically, 6 weeks before the draft I'm on the Mingo or Cooper train at 9 with Cooper being the safer option. That's IF the FO is not into Geno Smith, who I lean towards buying as a quality QB prospect who can give this team the average, efficient QB production the roster has been dying for since '08.

I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.

SenorGato 02-28-2013 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Bolt (Post 3287451)
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.

I prefer the bigger and better athlete. Warmack is a less versatile for me.

K Train 02-28-2013 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Bolt (Post 3287451)
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.

perfect description.

you cant go wrong with either...both are legitimately awesome players

thebow305 02-28-2013 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Bolt (Post 3287451)
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.

bigbuc 02-28-2013 07:29 PM

It would be amazing if the Rams drafted both of them. So cool. Would just love to see them play together.... just not agaisnt the Bucs.

K Train 02-28-2013 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebow305 (Post 3287515)
This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.

personally i was concerned about coopers weight the exact same way i was leery about tyron smith playing LT at 285, then he comes in and maintains 315ish and my concerns are gone. Cooper coming in at 311 has left me with zero questions...he could be a start LG on any team, and my bet is he will be

I dont think teo was a slam dunk top 10 prospect, but i do think hes going to be a damn good pro. He was trying to put the team on his back in the NC and failed miserably, but in the pros hes gonna learn he just has to play MLB, i do hink hes better than Mcclain was coming out. Teo is to me what would happen if brandon spikes and sean lee made an asian looking MLB baby together, which isnt anything to just scoff at as a NFL caliber player goes, i wish him the best i think hes a good player...he wasnt a heisman finalist for nothing. Warmack is a legit monster though. I would take him or cooper in a heartbeat to play LG for the steelers. Adams, Cooper/Warmack, Pouncey, Decastro, Gilbert is just sex on turf when it comes to a young offensive line

Iamcanadian 02-28-2013 07:52 PM

I think both have top 10 talent but only Warmack has a real shot of getting picked there. Warmack simply dominates every opponent he faces and open holes that made Lacy's life pretty easy. For a team that wants to run between the tackles, Warmack is you man, if a team prefers a ZBS system then Cooper might be more effective.

thebow305 02-28-2013 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K Train (Post 3287539)
personally i was concerned about coopers weight the exact same way i was leery about tyron smith playing LT at 285, then he comes in and maintains 315ish and my concerns are gone. Cooper coming in at 311 has left me with zero questions...he could be a start LG on any team, and my bet is he will be

I dont think teo was a slam dunk top 10 prospect, but i do think hes going to be a damn good pro. He was trying to put the team on his back in the NC and failed miserably, but in the pros hes gonna learn he just has to play MLB, i do hink hes better than Mcclain was coming out. Teo is to me what would happen if brandon spikes and sean lee made an asian looking MLB baby together, which isnt anything to just scoff at as a NFL caliber player goes, i wish him the best i think hes a good player...he wasnt a heisman finalist for nothing. Warmack is a legit monster though. I would take him or cooper in a heartbeat to play LG for the steelers. Adams, Cooper/Warmack, Pouncey, Decastro, Gilbert is just sex on turf when it comes to a young offensive line

Anything with Marcus Gilbert in it is the furthest thing from sex that I can think ok...

K Train 02-28-2013 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebow305 (Post 3287559)
Anything with Marcus Gilbert in it is the furthest thing from sex that I can think ok...

lol gilbert isnt a bad player, hes had a knack for injuring other olinemen but he has a future at RT for us i think

BallerT1215 02-28-2013 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebow305 (Post 3287515)
This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.

You just went HAM! on Cooper in defense of Warmack.

Definitely agree on Warmack being the one I'd rather have on the Bills if we needed OG, but Cooper would be a nice consolation prize.

Cooper has great versatility and deserves a 1st rnd grade but not until Warmack is off the board. He really does not jump off the screen when you watch him play, which isn't a bad thing because the less you hear an O'linemens name probably the better kind of like with CB's. You watch Warmack on tape, you notice him right away on the field.

Caulibflower 02-28-2013 09:15 PM

I totally agree. Most athletic interior lineman I've ever seen.

SOnMyChest 02-28-2013 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorGato (Post 3287436)
A couple of months ago I started thinking that Cooper > Warmack as a G prospect, which I made known on multiple boards. There's power to his game, but that is secondary to the athleticism and intelligence. He does freakish, athletic things on tape that, maybe due to a lack of experience, I just have no seen out of a G prospect in recent memory (including the "best since Hutchinson" candidates like DeCastro and Iupati).

There's other aspects I enjoy about Cooper that are more subtle maybe:

- Comes from a program that is and has been producing some really quality to high end athletes for the NFL in very recent years (basically, they have a hot hand). Hakeem Nicks, Marvin Austin before he messed up and slipped out of the first, Quinton Coples, Gio Bernard, TJ Yates (for a clear non-first round QB he's extremely likable), Gio Bernard, Zac Brown, Cam Thomas, Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter, and even Greg Little are all players with quality or better upside in the NFL from within the past not even 5 years.

- He's an Academic All American and a high character/makeup player. His post-combine interviews outline his ability to come up with and achieve goals (he never threw up 35 reps until combine according to him) and self assess himself objectively (wanted to run a 4.9, ran a 5.11).

- He's a highly intelligent player on the field. This FO piece outlines one of my favorite individual plays/actions from any OL prospect in recent memory - his downfield blocking for Gio Bernard on a screen against Duke:



http://www.footballo....onathan-cooper

That FO piece covers alot of what there is to like about Cooper on the field. He's got the hands and hand strength to be a high end interior OL prospect. He's got the on field intelligence to diagnose and the athletic ability to translate what he diagnoses on the field into a positive action and result. He's as fundamentally sound and his game as technique driven as it is driven by his athleticism - which speaks both to his coaches' ability and then his ability to translate coaching. His body is projectable - rare in the NFL draft and often only seen in the most physically gifted young talents - and as the FO piece points out there is a strong belief that he can get stronger in his lower body (specifically the thighs) and his core. His movements on the field are with purpose, explosiveness, and efficiency - three qualities to love in any player.

Most definitely I would take Cooper over Warmack. The way I see it he was the best player on UNC's offense even over Bernard, the more obvious candidate because he gets the ball. They do things with Cooper that you just do not see with other Gs and he makes it happen. That's a truly elite prospect to me and in a draft that lacks truly elite prospects I have zero qualms about this guy being the pick.

So basically, 6 weeks before the draft I'm on the Mingo or Cooper train at 9 with Cooper being the safer option. That's IF the FO is not into Geno Smith, who I lean towards buying as a quality QB prospect who can give this team the average, efficient QB production the roster has been dying for since '08.

Couldn't have said it better

SOnMyChest 02-28-2013 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Bolt (Post 3287451)
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.

Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack

Black Bolt 02-28-2013 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOnMyChest (Post 3287694)
Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack

No son, he doesn't. Not even the OP is making that argument.

JT Jag 02-28-2013 10:39 PM

Different strokes for different folks. Cooper would probably do better than Warmack in a zone blocking scheme. Warmack will do better than Cooper in a drive blocking scheme. Cooper has better theoretical athletic upside but that doesn't always translate: Warmack has the skill and experience to produce right now, and that sort of thing is often more important with lineman than with other positions.
Quote:

Originally Posted by SOnMyChest (Post 3287694)
Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack

This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted in these forums. I mean, unless you're trolling, which may well be possible. Someone who holds this opinion either is screwing around or has never seen an Alabama game in the last three years.

SenorGato 02-28-2013 11:06 PM

Quote:

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine.
Pre-Senior Bowl:

http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/...ad.php?t=55335

Quote:

- Jonathan Cooper will not let Warmack have that top G title. Beast of an athlete for the position and might be a better pass protector already. Would have given DeCastro a run for his money. Might be the next best OL after Joekel.
Pauline was saying he would give DeCastro a money for best OG during the last draft. This isn't a pop up prospect.

thebow305 02-28-2013 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorGato (Post 3287828)
Pre-Senior Bowl:

http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/...ad.php?t=55335



Pauline was saying he would give DeCastro a money for best OG during the last draft. This isn't a pop up prospect.

Well played, sir. Still don't think he's anywhere close to Warmack as a prospect. He's top 25. Warmack is Top 5. Easy.

descendency 02-28-2013 11:20 PM

The more people pump up Cooper, the happier I am. Warmack to NE would be a wet dream.

vidae 02-28-2013 11:20 PM

I think it's kinda funny that so many arguments are made year in and year out that <insert interior line player> is the best we've seen in <x> number of years.

WCH 02-28-2013 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae (Post 3287837)
I think it's kinda funny that so many arguments are made year in and year out that <insert interior line player> is the best we've seen in <x> number of years.

Cooper and Warmack are the best interior linemen I've seen in at least 1 year.

For real, though. I have a huge man-crush on Cooper.

SenorGato 02-28-2013 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vidae (Post 3287837)
I think it's kinda funny that so many arguments are made year in and year out that <insert interior line player> is the best we've seen in <x> number of years.

Feels like there's been about a half dozen "best Gs since Hutchinson" guys. Some in back to back years.

WCH 02-28-2013 11:43 PM

My pet peeve is "once in a generation talent."

SenorGato 03-01-2013 12:04 AM

How many "best WR prospects since Moss" have there been? I guess it moved to Calvin Johnson, but he's still got a ways to go to hold the tag like Moss' name will.

DrewyVuitton 03-01-2013 12:49 AM

Daniel Jeremiah tweeted tonight that he's heard indications that Cooper might go before Warmack.

Aside from that, I'd like to bring up another point that I've been hammering in the Cowboys forum.

How much value/impact can you really get from an OG? Is any OG really worth a top 10 pick?

Is the difference you're going to get in terms of impact from Warmack/Cooper THAT drastic and noticeable compared to what you'd get from a 2nd rd OG like Warford or Kyle Long or whoever you want to rank there? Yes, they're considered better prospects and could end up as better players, but does the position lessen their value?

I feel like there is a much more noticeable difference between what you get with a top 3 LT, DT, S, QB (not this year), DE, CB, WR and the guys you will get in the 2nd or 3rd round.

They have a noticeable impact on the team and there are distinct qualities about them that always drive players in these positions into the top 10 year after year.

To the contrary, OG and C consistently seem to be taken no higher than 15, and that's usually only 1 guy that's head & shoulders above the rest.

So how much are these guys really worth? Sure, if you're picking in the 2nd half of the 1st round and you already have an established team, it may make sense to draft a Guard. Especially if OL is one of your only weaknesses.

But if you're picking in the first half of the round, especially in the top 10, and theoretically have numerous holes on the roster -- does it ever make sense to take an OG that high?

Is the impact you get from that guy really going to be head and shoulders what you're going to get from a guy in the top half of the 2nd round? I don't think so.

I believe that is why guards fall year after year and why it will be no different this year.


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