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-   -   Terry Hawthorne, CB - Illinois (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56110)

bigbenn 03-30-2013 09:25 PM

Terry Hawthorne, CB - Illinois...4.31 NFL Combine?
 
Figured I would start a thread on who in my opinion is the best DB and overall player in the draft. People will disagree but I think we all will agree that players who are both elite athletes and elite football players are hard to find. That is exactly what Hawthorne is. People will say Milliner, etc. are better but teams simply do not test Hawthorne. At all. Some will point to LA Tech but I am a firm believer that it was a blown coverage on the long touchdown. Other than that it was a great battle between two great players. There is no better CB better than Hawthorne in this draft, and I honestly think he is the best in the last few years. In addition to also being tremendous in coverage and a real playmaker, he is the best run support CB in this draft by far.

Also, I wanted to get some clarification on his combine 40 time. As many are aware, official times sometimes take time to get out. I just recently noticed that another site that has an idea of what they are doing recently changed his combine results to a 4.31 40, which is not a surprise to me as I have been adamant he is a 4.3 guy possibly sub 4.3. It does not make his stock any higher or lower to me because he is one of those guys who actually plays to his speed, but does it raise his stock in your eyes? Your thoughts?

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings...2013&genpos=CB

bigbenn 03-30-2013 09:33 PM

BTW I firmly believe he should be a top 5-10 pick, but if he falls anywhere past that it will be a steal. I have a feeling it will get there as he doesn't bring the press of some other guys. If he nearly falls out of the 1st round, I think the 49ers will take him in a similar fashion to the way they took AJ Jenkins (Also of Illinois) last year. I think the Kraft Bowl the Illini played in SF had a big influence on them choosing Jenkins, so I'm sure they vividly remember Hawthorne's pick 6 to seal the game and shutdown ability that game (That whole season was just great and SHOULD have been an All American year for Hawthorne). People will say he struggled this year, but the fact is teams just didn't test him. They never really have. That includes Russell Wilson, Griffin III, Kirk Cousins, etc. etc. etc.

phlysac 03-30-2013 11:26 PM

I mocked him to the 49ers and took some flack for not addressing CB in the first couple rounds. I agree that someone like Baalke might see Hawthorne as a much better CB than his stock represents. He has that kind of feel to me, as well. I really like him.

rawdawg 03-31-2013 08:36 AM

He's not the best DB or player in the draft. And it was pretty clear he had a poor game vs. Quinton Patton and LA Tech. But I think he's a very good player. I think he's a legit top 50-60 talent, but a lot of people don't have him going until 4th round. I'm guessing it's due to concussion issues and other injuries he's had at Illinois. I do think he will be a steal wherever he's drafted (assuming it's late 2nd at best). You'd think he'd have better ball skills with his WR background, but the most important thing is that he can cover. Size to compete with big WRs, speed to keep up with the little guys. Probably a top 10 CB on my list (which I need to refine), but I don't think you can rate him over the top guys at his position who don't have the injury concerns and similar size/speed measurables.

iowatreat54 03-31-2013 09:47 AM

Hawthorne is a pretty good DB, but probably somewhere around late 2nd-early 3rd at best. I would love for him to get drafted by the Bears if he somehow falls lower, but I doubt it. There is absolutely zero chance he goes top 10, nor should he.

Also, that is literally the only site in the world that has him as a 4.31 40. He didn't run at the Illinois Pro Day and certainly didn't run a 4.31 at the combine. Hawthorne is deceptively fast in games, but he's not that fast.

And just look at that link again, they have him as the 19th best CB in the draft. I don't think he's that far down, but either they are spot on with their predictions and information with him running a 4.31 and being the 19th best, or they are way off and he didn't run a 4.31 and is better than 19th.

Iamcanadian 03-31-2013 12:46 PM

Hawthorne is an elite athlete. He's fluid in his backpeddle and has excellent ball skills. However, his instincts are very questionable, he was simply beat way too often by inferior players which is why he won't see rounds 1. Still his athleticism might just get him drafted very late round 2 but round 3 is far more likely. The CB position is loaded in this draft which will also affect where he gets drafted.

bigbenn 03-31-2013 02:03 PM

I'm just curious as to what inferior players have beat him. Like I said literally nobody tests him. Also don't get the instincts thing. He has very good instincts especially considering he never played CB until a week or so before his freshman year started. As for the 4.31 I definitely believe that over 4.44. He isn't 'deceptively' fast. He's 'real' fast. He is just so smooth you don't realize it. I hope the Bears get him in the 1st if he falls that far. If they don't get him hopefully they can snag Hugh Thornton but I have a feeling he will be a surprise 1st rounder possibly early.

Iamcanadian 03-31-2013 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3316959)
I'm just curious as to what inferior players have beat him. Like I said literally nobody tests him. Also don't get the instincts thing. He has very good instincts especially considering he never played CB until a week or so before his freshman year started. As for the 4.31 I definitely believe that over 4.44. He isn't 'deceptively' fast. He's 'real' fast. He is just so smooth you don't realize it. I hope the Bears get him in the 1st if he falls that far. If they don't get him hopefully they can snag Hugh Thornton but I have a feeling he will be a surprise 1st rounder possibly early.

Your dreaming if you think either of these guys are 1st round talents, 2nd round maybe but they won't even smell round 1.
You talk like Illinois blew everybody away during their season when they actually stunk it up pretty badly and when you play for a team as bad as Illinois, the chances of getting drafted high are fairly low.

I said he was an elite athlete, nobody is desputing that, but he doesn't always play that well which is why he will be drafted closer to round 3 than round 1. You simply have blinkers on when discussing Illinois players, unfortunately, that won't make them more than what they are.

Here, read the NFL.com analysis of Hawthorne, he has a shot because of his athleticism but he has a long way to go.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profil...rne?id=2539238

ChiFan24 03-31-2013 03:02 PM

Bigbenn never ceases to amaze me. None of these people are first round talents. College football exists outside of Illinois. In fact, it's far, far better.

iowatreat54 03-31-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3316959)
As for the 4.31 I definitely believe that over 4.44. He isn't 'deceptively' fast. He's 'real' fast. He is just so smooth you don't realize it.

I'm thinking someone doesn't know what deceptively fast means...

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3316959)
I hope the Bears get him in the 1st if he falls that far.

The Bears aren't touching a CB in the first round, especially where they are picking. Maybe, MAYBE if they trade down for a late 1st and early 2nd (unlikely) they can take a BPA late first, but there's really no reason for them to take a CB that early.

bigbenn 03-31-2013 05:58 PM

We will see. Should be interesting. What is also interesting is Hawthorne's time was changed to what Milliner's reported time was. It wouldn't shock me at all if that was a 'mix up'. I also know what 'deceptively' fast means, but the general use of that time implies a guy is a 4.5 type of guy give or take. Your use of it is basically the same saying he's fast, but not that fast. I'm saying he's fast fast and there's nothing really 'deceptive' about it. You know he's very fast. He's just so smooth you don't notice that he is elite fast and not just fast. In a way deceptive yes, but we are not talking in the same context.

rawdawg 03-31-2013 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3316959)
I'm just curious as to what inferior players have beat him. Like I said literally nobody tests him. Also don't get the instincts thing. He has very good instincts especially considering he never played CB until a week or so before his freshman year started. As for the 4.31 I definitely believe that over 4.44. He isn't 'deceptively' fast. He's 'real' fast. He is just so smooth you don't realize it. I hope the Bears get him in the 1st if he falls that far. If they don't get him hopefully they can snag Hugh Thornton but I have a feeling he will be a surprise 1st rounder possibly early.

At least you're not biased at all.

iowatreat54 03-31-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3317153)
We will see. Should be interesting. What is also interesting is Hawthorne's time was changed to what Milliner's reported time was. It wouldn't shock me at all if that was a 'mix up'. I also know what 'deceptively' fast means, but the general use of that time implies a guy is a 4.5 type of guy give or take. Your use of it is basically the same saying he's fast, but not that fast. I'm saying he's fast fast and there's nothing really 'deceptive' about it. You know he's very fast. He's just so smooth you don't notice that he is elite fast and not just fast. In a way deceptive yes, but we are not talking in the same context.

Well considering I made the comment and created the context...

Hawthorne is fast, but not elite/fastest ever fast/Chris Johnson fast. When he runs, he doesn't look like he's trying or working very hard to do it (meaning he doesn't look like he's moving that fast) but he really is, you just don't realize. Hence, the deception.

Deceptively fast isn't only used to describe slow guys or guys with average speed but play faster. Hawthorne's "speed" is not something you really appreciate running a straight line with no pads, it's in his play.

bigbenn 03-31-2013 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iowatreat54 (Post 3317166)
Well considering I made the comment and created the context...

Hawthorne is fast, but not elite/fastest ever fast/Chris Johnson fast. When he runs, he doesn't look like he's trying or working very hard to do it (meaning he doesn't look like he's moving that fast) but he really is, you just don't realize. Hence, the deception.

Deceptively fast isn't only used to describe slow guys or guys with average speed but play faster. Hawthorne's "speed" is not something you really appreciate running a straight line with no pads, it's in his play.


I guess. You call it deceptive. I call it smooth. And once again yes he is definitely THAT fast, as in the fastest man on the field at all times fast. Like one of the fastest players in the nation/draft fast. I don't know what people watch. As for the other guy, I know there is football elsewhere. And its true teams are better, but only because the have the right combo of depth, experience and chemistry.We are talking individual players

bigbenn 03-31-2013 08:20 PM

The Illini have several elite prospects who are top 3-4 at their position with a few who are the best in my opinion (Several later round prospects who are intriguing as well).They will have a minimum 5 draft picks and might have as many as 8 IMO. I think they will have 2 definite 1st rounders with a chance of 4. 5 1st-2nd round picks (The 4 at the combine and possibly Justin Green who will be a surprise pick 3rd round latest). Also keep an eye out for both Glenn Foster and Graham Pocic as possible early round picks (3rd-4th at the latest).

holt_bruce81 03-31-2013 08:37 PM

Illinois is not going to have five 1st-2nd round picks. Sorry.

stlouisfan37 03-31-2013 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiFan24 (Post 3317014)
Bigbenn never ceases to amaze me. None of these people are first round talents. College football exists outside of Illinois. In fact, it's far, far better.

Thank you:-)

stlouisfan37 03-31-2013 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3317237)
The Illini have several elite prospects who are top 3-4 at their position with a few who are the best in my opinion (Several later round prospects who are intriguing as well).They will have a minimum 5 draft picks and might have as many as 8 IMO. I think they will have 2 definite 1st rounders with a chance of 4. 5 1st-2nd round picks (The 4 at the combine and possibly Justin Green who will be a surprise pick 3rd round latest). Also keep an eye out for both Glenn Foster and Graham Pocic as possible early round picks (3rd-4th at the latest).

There's a guy at work who truly believes that, after how he played this last season, Russel Wilson is the greatest quarterback to ever play the game and will undoubtedly demolish every QB record that exists when all is said and done. I think you two should get together and watch a few games. You'd get along fabulously.

ChiFan24 04-01-2013 12:57 AM

Justin Green is horrible. No real Illini fan can possibly watch an Illini game and come away thinking about him in a positive manner. I think bigbenn is just some Iowa fan messing with us.

Oh, I also find it funny that the one Illini prospect that no draft places bother to rank that I think has a TINY bit of sleeper potential in the NFL is the one bigbenn hasn't even named yet. I'm sure he'll get to him eventually, though.

ChiFan24 04-01-2013 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3317235)
I guess. You call it deceptive. I call it smooth. And once again yes he is definitely THAT fast, as in the fastest man on the field at all times fast. Like one of the fastest players in the nation/draft fast. I don't know what people watch. As for the other guy, I know there is football elsewhere. And its true teams are better, but only because the have the right combo of depth, experience and chemistry.We are talking individual players

No, not really. They're better because they have better players. The Illini are one of the absolute worst college football teams in the nation. They have a few interesting later round talents. If they had even close to the talent level you describe, they would have finished over .500. You are honestly the most shamelessly biased homer I have ever witnessed. I'm not kidding.

stlouisfan37 04-01-2013 01:32 AM

I will have to give bigbenn this, though...he loves his team and they have his full unconditional support, no matter what. There is something to be said for that. It just doesn't translate well when it come to prospect evaluation.

bigbenn 04-01-2013 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiFan24 (Post 3317438)
Justin Green is horrible. No real Illini fan can possibly watch an Illini game and come away thinking about him in a positive manner. I think bigbenn is just some Iowa fan messing with us.

Oh, I also find it funny that the one Illini prospect that no draft places bother to rank that I think has a TINY bit of sleeper potential in the NFL is the one bigbenn hasn't even named yet. I'm sure he'll get to him eventually, though.

I just don't get this. He is nowhere near horrible. He is ver good in coverage and physical as well. Also like Hawthorne he did not play CB until he got to college (Other than the Army game). Unlike Hawthorne he was actually a RB until his sophomore year. Green doesn't have elite playmaking skill, but his elite/speed athleticism, physicalit/strength (21 bench reps at pro day) and his ability to stick with anybody will make him a draft pick. Possibly early IMO.

stlouisfan37 04-01-2013 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbenn (Post 3318179)
I just don't get this. He is nowhere near horrible. He is ver good in coverage and physical as well. Also like Hawthorne he did not play CB until he got to college (Other than the Army game). Unlike Hawthorne he was actually a RB until his sophomore year. Green doesn't have elite playmaking skill, but his elite/speed athleticism, physicalit/strength (21 bench reps at pro day) and his ability to stick with anybody will make him a draft pick. Possibly early IMO.

Bigbenn...and I admit I was teasing you before but I'm not anymore...I really think you have lost view of reality. Those players are only great in your mind because you love them. And that's okay. But there is a huge difference between calling a guy a high draft pick and saying that you like the kid and are pulling for him to have a nice career:-)

dunagan15 04-01-2013 09:37 PM

This thread is pure win. Bigbenn, I believe all you say is true. I need to hear about some players for next years draft to keep an eye on. Thank buddy, we all owe you a huge thank-you for keeping up with the mighty fighting illini.

Nastradamus 04-02-2013 08:55 AM

ah, the fact that you are named after a former Illini bust is just so fitting.


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