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-   -   Profootballfocus Top 101 Players of 2012 List (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56740)

AcheTen (Thumper) 05-21-2013 10:00 AM

Profootballfocus Top 101 Players of 2012 List
 
This is a very interesting list because it takes into account actual on-field performance in 2012 rather than "hype" for players.

For example, there is no Earl Thomas in this list. Profootballfocus watches every snap and has determined that Thomas is not even the best DB on his own team. Everyone else has fallen victim to the hype.

Similarly, there is no Maurkice Pouncey. For years Pouncey has been the most overrated OL in the NFL but PFF watches the tape and rates him appropriately.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...the-full-list/

Nastradamus 05-21-2013 11:39 AM

Agreed. My favorite one

46. Jason Pierre-Paul, DE, New York Giants (17th)

The danger was always there with how people viewed “JPP”. As good as his 2011 season was the emphasis placed on his sack numbers were always going to come back to bite him. And while it’s true he didn’t have quite the same impact as he did when the Giants won it all, it shouldn’t take away from a tremendously complete season he put forward. Excellent against the run, there’s no shame in the 55 QB disruptions he managed.

robert pancake gallery 05-21-2013 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3368907)
This is a very interesting list because it takes into account actual on-field performance in 2012 rather than "hype" for players.

For example, there is no Earl Thomas in this list. Profootballfocus watches every snap and has determined that Thomas is not even the best DB on his own team. Everyone else has fallen victim to the hype.

Similarly, there is no Maurkice Pouncey. For years Pouncey has been the most overrated OL in the NFL but PFF watches the tape and rates him appropriately.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...the-full-list/

maybe they don't value earl thomas as much as the next, that doesn't mean that their evaluation of his playing ability is really any more or less valid than the next site of "experts". to completely disregard everyone else as falling victim to hype because PFF said so isn't fair or true.

it's not like jeff franceour's rookie season when he didn't walk for like two months and half the world was lauding him as some future superstar while the other half saw that his production was in no way sustainable.

Splat 05-21-2013 12:52 PM

Needs more Jamaal Charles.

Homer post of the day.

Trogdor 05-21-2013 01:09 PM

PFF is fun and all but take it with a grain of salt. They don't know what play was called (on either side of the ball) and randomly assign whether they were in position. Sure you can figure out blown assignments easy enough but how can they know whether a receiver ran a route 2 yards too shallow or if the QB overthrew the ball.

This especially comes into play with their grading of players in the secondary. If you don't have the play-call and audibles from both teams as well as an All-22 viewpoint it's a guessing game.

That being said as a general observation point it is quite nice to have the reviews when done in detail (not just scanning a top 101 sheet). Cameron Wake deserves a mention at 8 as he had a dominant season without a ton of favor thrown his way.

LonghornsLegend 05-21-2013 01:15 PM

Vincent Jackson was incredibly high on this list. Higher then WR's who are better then him and guys who had better seasons then him.

bigbluedefense 05-21-2013 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3368907)
This is a very interesting list because it takes into account actual on-field performance in 2012 rather than "hype" for players.

For example, there is no Earl Thomas in this list. Profootballfocus watches every snap and has determined that Thomas is not even the best DB on his own team. Everyone else has fallen victim to the hype.

Similarly, there is no Maurkice Pouncey. For years Pouncey has been the most overrated OL in the NFL but PFF watches the tape and rates him appropriately.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...the-full-list/

Oh look at that, JPP is higher on the list than Brandon Graham.

So since PFF is the bible of football analysis, I guess it's fair to say you were wrong and that JPP is better Graham right?

Rosebud 05-21-2013 01:25 PM

Uh oh...PFF just said JPP was better than Brandon Graham, what'll our conflicted hero do now! Tune in Next week on "Why should I think for myself? I have a PFF subscription! With your host AcheTen"

EDIT: GOD DAMN IT BBD I WAS GUNNA MAKE THAT JOKE FIRST!!! You no longer get congratulatory ass slap for NYG at the new poster orgy.

bigbluedefense 05-21-2013 01:27 PM

Quick, make this thread about Earl Thomas so people won't notice!

AcheTen (Thumper) 05-21-2013 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense (Post 3369195)
Oh look at that, JPP is higher on the list than Brandon Graham.

So since PFF is the bible of football analysis, I guess it's fair to say you were wrong and that JPP is better Graham right?

If you read the Graham blurb, the only reason he isn't in the top-10 is because of lack of playing time.

Basically speaking, playing time does matter, because more playing time = more contributions.

That doesn't change the fact that Graham was a superior player on a PER-SNAP basis.

This ranking takes into account cumulative contributions first and foremost, however.

WCH 05-21-2013 01:32 PM

When hindsight rears it's head, I expect the "JPP was mediocre" talk of this offseason to look just as stupid as the "Clay Matthews was mediocre" talk of last offseason.

Maybe next season Von Miller will have a 6-sack season and we can all question him.

bigbluedefense 05-21-2013 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3369208)
If you read the Graham blurb, the only reason he isn't in the top-10 is because of lack of playing time.

Basically speaking, playing time does matter, because more playing time = more contributions.

That doesn't change the fact that Graham was a superior player on a PER-SNAP basis.

This ranking takes into account cumulative contributions first and foremost, however.

Right, bc more playing time ALWAYS means more contributions right?

So I guess a pinch hitter who hit 1 home run his one time at bat should have hit like 150 home runs on the season right? I mean after all, just extrapolate the numbers over more time and you have your answer right?

I hope you realize that Graham isn't even gonna be a starter this year. Which makes this whole debate even more hilarious.

Giantsfan1080 05-21-2013 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WCH (Post 3369209)
When hindsight rears it's head, I expect the "JPP was mediocre" talk of this offseason to look just as stupid as the "Clay Matthews was mediocre" talk of last offseason.

Maybe next season Von Miller will have a 6-sack season and we can all question him.

JPP was good last year but everyone expected a HOF type season considering what he did in 2011. His 2011 season might be the best if he ever puts up "numbers" wise though.

Nastradamus 05-21-2013 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3369208)
If you read the Graham blurb, the only reason he isn't in the top-10 is because of lack of playing time.

Basically speaking, playing time does matter, because more playing time = more contributions.

That doesn't change the fact that Graham was a superior player on a PER-SNAP basis.

This ranking takes into account cumulative contributions first and foremost, however.

Sure, but you can agree that JPP Is elite despite his sack numbers falling this year right, and that he's a special run defender? Those are the two major issues people have with this subject.

edit - as far as playing time, let me just say that the Giants would never let that happen with JPP. For a guy to be as good as you claim Graham was, but be left on the bench, that strikes me as odd.

LonghornsLegend 05-21-2013 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense (Post 3369215)
Right, bc more playing time ALWAYS means more contributions right?

So I guess a pinch hitter who hit 1 home run his one time at bat should have hit like 150 home runs on the season right? I mean after all, just extrapolate the numbers over more time and you have your answer right?

I hope you realize that Graham isn't even gonna be a starter this year. Which makes this whole debate even more hilarious.

I do find it quite hilarious when people cling to PFF as gospel then when it doesn't fit one of their agendas try and spin it to mean something completely different. Like he wants to run around and gloat with this list for Earl Thomas but in this situation it doesn't matter anymore.


I guess he thinks Vincent Jackson is better then AJ Green then, at least that much is settled.

jrdrylie 05-21-2013 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcheTen (Post 3369208)
If you read the Graham blurb, the only reason he isn't in the top-10 is because of lack of playing time.

Basically speaking, playing time does matter, because more playing time = more contributions.

That doesn't change the fact that Graham was a superior player on a PER-SNAP basis.

This ranking takes into account cumulative contributions first and foremost, however.

This argument is so stupid. If he was really that good, he would get more playing time. That is like me saying Kevin Kolb is a better QB than Rom, Luck, Stafford, and Newton because he had more TDs per attempt.

I know stats are everything, but he has 8.5 sacks in three seasons. Over the last three seasons, that total has been surpasses in a single season74 times.

bigbluedefense 05-21-2013 02:46 PM

Look guys, it's simple. If Graham was so good, he'd start. He doesn't. Bc he's not.

And let's totally ignore that the guy has been playing in a wide 9 scheme this whole time that exaggerates pass rush performance.

Graham can be a good player, I'm not saying he's a bum. I was a huge fan of his coming out of the draft. He was my favorite DE in that draft, with JPP being a close 2nd (only bc he was raw, if he wasn't such a wildcard he'd be my favorite), but Graham is what he is at this point, and I don't see him ever becoming a dominant pass rusher like JPP.

Borat 05-21-2013 02:46 PM

Quote:

For those not doing the math the San Francisco 49ers led all teams with 13 players selected. The next most were Denver and Seattle with six each, followed by Minnesota and New England with five.
Booooooom.

robert pancake gallery 05-21-2013 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrdrylie (Post 3369281)
This argument is so stupid. If he was really that good, he would get more playing time. That is like me saying Kevin Kolb is a better QB than Rom, Luck, Stafford, and Newton because he had more TDs per attempt.

I know stats are everything, but he has 8.5 sacks in three seasons. Over the last three seasons, that total has been surpasses in a single season74 times.

i'd liken it more to of a darren sproles type thing; sure he is among the most valuable runningbacks in the league on a per-snap basis, but his skillset is limited to appearing in only certain formations and situations. as a result, it's not unreasonable to assume that his stats are inflated on account of: being well-rested when he is on the field, facing defensive schemes with more defensive backs, being involved almost exclusively in plays conducive to the strengths of his game (other guys who may have similar strengths but are more well-rounded may see a dip in their overall efficiency-related statistics by mixing in more of those runs that sproles never has to make).

Imagine a scenario:
- Player A has an overall avg/obp/slg is .275/.333/.415, batting .300/.340/.430 vs righties and .250/.325/.400 vs lefties
- Player B hits .300/.340/.430 but faces exclusively righties because he can't hit lefties

phlysac 05-21-2013 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borat (Post 3369302)
Booooooom.

Yeah, he not only loses the JPP thing but he has stated how overrated the 49ers players are.

cmarq83 05-21-2013 06:13 PM

One thing that kills me about people who harp on PRP for guys who don't get a ton of sacks is that a good portion of pressures and knockdowns are ultimately irrelevant. It's a crucial flaw in the formula, and the weight should be nowhere near as high as .75 of a sack. For example by mid-season last year the Broncos had 110 non-sack pressures and knockdowns, and 135 total pass rushes. At the same time they had only forced 8 interceptions and 118 incompletions on 296 passing attempts.

It's simply an absurd weight to be putting on something that has a far more ambiguous, and far more likely inconsequential result on a play.

TitanHope 05-21-2013 07:37 PM

Glad to see Michael Roos (5th OT), Derrick Morgan (6th DE), and Jurrell Casey (7th DT) get some love. Three very underrated players.

Morgan is higher than Brandon Graham too. TAKE THAT GHOST OF SNIPER26! TAKE IT WHILE BEING SERVED GRAPES BY FAIR MAIDENS IN SNIPER26 HEAVEN!

J-Mike88 05-21-2013 10:06 PM

Stands out to me:


36. Casey Hayward, CB, Green Bay Packers
58. Antoine Winfield, CB, Minnesota Vikings
59. NaVorro Bowman, LB, San Francisco 49ers
60. Ndamukong Suh, DT, Detroit Lions


Also:

23. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle Seahawks
24. Clay Matthews, OLB, Green Bay Packers
31. Robert Griffin III, QB, Washington Redskins
79. Drew Brees, QB, New Orleans Saints

No Andrew Luck.

gpngc 05-21-2013 10:10 PM

Reminder. Antoine Winfield is the Seahawks nickel back.

Caulibflower 05-22-2013 01:06 AM

Wonder when somebody's going to call it collusion?


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