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-   -   Revist 2004 QB draft. (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=743)

eacantdraft 08-22-2006 12:17 PM

Revist 2004 QB draft.
 
If you knew now what you knew then, who would you take if you had to start a team today.

I'd take Big Ben who I liked the best before the 2004 draft. He's big and throws well on the run.

To provide balance in the choices I ranked them to the order that the QB's were drafted.

08-22-2006 12:22 PM

Eli is going to be very good, probably a pro-bowler, but Ben has the ring so i would have to choose him.

bsaza2358 08-22-2006 12:27 PM

I don't think the Giants would have done it any differently. I'm guessing the Chargers liked the deal they got to trade back from #1 to #4. Rivers was their guy, and I don't think either Ben or Eli would have cracked the lineup with Brees playing the way he did. Since Marty and AJ both liked Rivers, he'd probably still got #4. I'm not sure Ben would have been as good without the great O-Line and running game in Pittsburgh. Still, the Steelers love him. I don't think I would have done it any differently.

Number 10 08-22-2006 12:49 PM

Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.

BehrenMan007 08-22-2006 12:53 PM

The man with the ring on his finger

danman253 08-22-2006 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 10
Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.


That title under your name is very true.

Unless Eli takes the Giants very far, i'm not putting him ahead of Ben. No way no how.

bigbluedefense 08-22-2006 01:01 PM

When you draft a qb, he is your guy for the next 12 years. Not 2. I like Ben alot and think he will be a great qb, but knowing what I know now, Id still take Eli because he will be the better qb over the coarse of their careers. Ben has won a SB and has a better win % yes, but thats not entirely him, and knowing what I know about my team, I know for a fact that Ben wouldn't be as successful as he is now if the Giants drafted him. That doesn't mean Ben is bad...if you think just because he throws 17 times a game and he has an all world oline/run game/defense that he is not good, then youre wrong. Hes a great qb in his own right, but at the same time, I think the media and common fans alike have overrated him because they relate the Steeler's success directly to Ben Roethlisberger which is not true.

Eli will make the leap this year and prove all the doubters wrong. I think Ben and Eli will be similar to Marino/Elway in a way because both will be great and you can make a strong argument for both...but ultimately you can't go wrong with either.

I like Phillip Rivers and Im rooting for him, but I think Ben is better, but again, that doesn't mean that Rivers will be bad. Schaub winded up being a 3rd round sleeper, hes good too.

Honestly, Im not a believer in JP Lossman, never have been. I believe every qb must get 4 years before you call them busts, but I have a feeling Lossman will disappoint.

Number 10 08-22-2006 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danman253
Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 10
Even though I have admitted Big Ben has played better QB over the course of their first 2 years in the NFL, I would still take Eli over him if I were starting my own team. This is the year Eli will be put ahead of Big Ben on almost every board.


That title under your name is very true.

Unless Eli takes the Giants very far, i'm not putting him ahead of Ben. No way no how.

We'll see.

draftguru151 08-22-2006 01:04 PM

I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

Ward 08-22-2006 01:06 PM

I voted Rivers. I liked him better in college than the other two.

bigbluedefense 08-22-2006 01:07 PM

And while I agree that the ring on Ben's finger makes him better as of now, its unfair to make him out to be the best based solely on that reason. Many great qb's don't have rings, and many average ones do, but you wouldn't confuse the 2. Dilfer, Rypien, Theisman, etc is no way, shape or form better than Marino.

I think its much too early to make a consensus decision on who was the best qb from this draft class. Based on what we've already seen, Ben is the best at the moment. But none of us can see the future, and much can change over the next 10 years. Especially since alot of these qbs are still developing. Eli will make the leap this year, Rivers finally gets to start, Schaub has yet to get his much deserved starting job on a different team...its faaaar too early to look back on this draft class.

Number 10 08-22-2006 01:12 PM

And like I have said before, I hold off my big time judgments on QBs until they have played for three years. Ben has one year left, Eli has a year or 2 left, and Rivers has 3 left.

Immaculate Tackle 08-22-2006 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draftguru151
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

I'm not saying that Eli Manning is a bust. But he's done nothing to show anyone that he is better than Roethlisberger. Sure, Roethlisberger has some better defensive talent (that's about the limit of BB's advantages). And it's possible that he will be better than Roethlisberger. But there's no actual positive evidence that he will be.

bigbluedefense 08-22-2006 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Quote:

Originally Posted by draftguru151
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

Well, theyre pass protection isn't the best best in the league, but its by far not the worst. Ive paid attention to Ben's footwork in the pocket, and its not great which leads to some of his sacks. He doesn't step up in the pocket enough, he likes sitting back there and rolling out...this looks flashy on tv but is not the proper way. A couple of times Ive seen him roll out and get sacked when he couldve easily stepped up and evaded pressure, and made the throw, so while the pass protection may not be Seattle's, its not as bad as the numbers indicate.

Number 10 08-22-2006 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Quote:

Originally Posted by draftguru151
I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.

Wow...you're taking a guy with a career percentage of 50% and a guy who has done nothing over someone who has posted back to back 98 QB ratings? Not to mention 3 great ROAD playoff performances?

And bigbluedefense has some good points, but he continues to overrate the Steelers pass protection. They are fierce run blockers, but terribly inconsistent pass protectors.

I'm not saying that Eli Manning is a bust. But he's done nothing to show anyone that he is better than Roethlisberger. Sure, Roethlisberger has some better defensive talent (that's about the limit of BB's advantages). And it's possible that he will be better than Roethlisberger. But there's no actual positive evidence that he will be.

And that's why there will be no winner to this debate. They both have a ways to go in terms of becoming complete QBs in this league. Ben can do things Eli can't, Eli can do things Ben can't. They are both in good situations right now in terms of the team they play for. This debate can't seriously take place for another 2-3 years even though it will have it's own thread at least 10 times between now and February.

Immaculate Tackle 08-22-2006 01:38 PM

Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

08-22-2006 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Look at this

Player G Att Cmp Pct Tot /Att /G TD TD% Int Int% Sack Rat
Eli Manning 16 557 294 52.8 3762 6.8 235.1 24 4.3 17 3.1 27 75.9





Player Team Yds Yds/Att Yds/Gm Att Comp Comp % TD INT Sacked Rating
1. Ben Roethlisberger PITTSBURGH 2385 8.9 149.1 268 168 62.7 17 9 23 98.6


Now shut up

steel man 08-22-2006 01:46 PM

i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!

Number 10 08-22-2006 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Honestly, I don't even want to get into the discussion because other people will jump in and start bantering about how I think too highly of Eli....etc. Once the season is under way we will all have more ammo to fire with, so I'd rather wait til then to have a full blown debate. But to answer your question shortly...I think Eli has more pocket presence and awareness than Ben does. Eli has a feel for pressure that I rarely see in any veteran QBs-let alone a first year starter. I feel that he is more clutch than Ben is (even though Eli played the worst I have seen any playoff QB play against the Panthers last January). He is so dependable late in games when the team needs points on the board, can't say that about Ben yet. I'm not saying he can't be dependable, but that offense has never been in his hands and when it needs to be, I just don't see "it". They both have strong arms, but I would give the arm strength edge to Eli, especially on the 5-10 yard throws and the 40+ yard throws.

Shiver 08-22-2006 01:49 PM

Yeah, I agree. It takes three years to first judge a draft class. No one knows how good Losman or Rivers will be. This thread would be much better next year.

drowe 08-22-2006 01:51 PM

who in the bloody hell voted for jp losman.

it has to be ben. i know he didn't throw 25-30 times a game. but all he's done is win. he's played smart and done what he's had to do.
manning does have an upside as of now, and he COULD take the next step. but how can you argue with results.
and i know it wasn't all big ben...but A LOT of those players were there when tommy maddox was under center.

Jughead10 08-22-2006 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steel man
i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!

Ben is no where near smarter than Eli. That might be the one thing that will always hold him back from being head and shoulders above Eli.

Also how hurt and tired was he really? Cowher didn't seem to think so.

SuperMcGee 08-22-2006 01:52 PM

Losman beating Rivers? :lol:

I figured I'd throw JP a homer sympathy vote, but apparently the guy that needs it is the guy I'd actually take - Philip Rivers

Immaculate Tackle 08-22-2006 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagfan33
Quote:

Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Out of curiosity, what do you think Eli can do that Ben can't?

Look at this

Player G Att Cmp Pct Tot /Att /G TD TD% Int Int% Sack Rat
Eli Manning 16 557 294 52.8 3762 6.8 235.1 24 4.3 17 3.1 27 75.9
Player Team Yds Yds/Att Yds/Gm Att Comp Comp % TD INT Sacked Rating
1. Ben Roethlisberger PITTSBURGH 2385 8.9 149.1 268 168 62.7 17 9 23 98.6
Now shut up

Great argument, moron. Care to explain how that proves anything? Also, were you shaken as a baby?
To the other guy:
Quote:

He is so dependable late in games when the team needs points on the board, can't say that about Ben yet. I'm not saying he can't be dependable, but that offense has never been in his hands and when it needs to be, I just don't see "it".
You've got to be kidding me. Roethlisberger has SEVEN come-from-behind victories. The reason he's lost so few games is that he almost never comes up short when they need him the most. Read and weep:
Quote:

Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit. The others are Marc Bulger (10-5), Ben Roethlisberger (7-2), Steve Young (7-4) and John Elway (7-6). Bulger, who ranks eighth by this metric, is the only one in that group that has yet to win a Super Bowl.

Jughead10 08-22-2006 02:08 PM

Quote:

Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit. The others are Marc Bulger (10-5), Ben Roethlisberger (7-2), Steve Young (7-4) and John Elway (7-6). Bulger, who ranks eighth by this metric, is the only one in that group that has yet to win a Super Bowl.
Sounds like one of those dumb KC Joyner metrics. I think this stat is an abberation. Look at how many opportunities Ben has already had. 7-2. Elways was 7-6 in his entire career. So in two years Ben has had 4 less come from behind oppotunities than Elway did in his entire career? My guess would be a lot of those comebacks were of 3 or less points.


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