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Old 05-02-2011, 12:24 AM    (permalink
bigbuc
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Default The ATL Trade?

Do you think that if the ALT called AZ and offered two 1st rounders a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder for Fitz they would have taken it?
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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Can't trade players so we'll never know.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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There's not a wide receiver in the league I'd trade two #1s for (let alone two #1s and change), so if I'm Arizona and I'm able to trade Fitzgerald and am offered that deal, I jump at it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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I just ask cause wouldn't you want Fitz over a unproven Jones.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
There's not a wide receiver in the league I'd trade two #1s for (let alone two #1s and change), so if I'm Arizona and I'm able to trade Fitzgerald and am offered that deal, I jump at it.
I would laugh Atlanta out of the building if they offered only two firsts for Fitz. Heck, I wouldn't even except the deal they offered Cleveland. Without Fitz, the Cards go way, WAY down.

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I just ask cause wouldn't you want Fitz over a unproven Jones.
At this point, It is close. Yes, Fitz is proven, but Julio is about as safe a prospect as there can be IMHO. Also, Julio is seven years younger so I can't say with certainty who I'd rather have.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:00 AM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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I would laugh Atlanta out of the building if they offered only two firsts for Fitz. Heck, I wouldn't even except the deal they offered Cleveland. Without Fitz, the Cards go way, WAY down.
As though Arizona is following a positive trajectory with Fitzgerald? Considering that Fitzgerald's contract expires after the 2011 season and is probably not going to want to return if the Cardinals are still a disaster, if I could get a pair of firsts for him now I'd jump at it.

But like I said, if I'm the GM of any team in the league, for any wide receiver on my roster, you offer me two firsts and you can have him. Wide receivers simply aren't that irreplaceable. That Green Bay WR corps last year that all the TV announcers say was "the best in the league" was made up of two second round picks, a third round pick, and two seventh round picks. If you like you can throw in the TEs who were a third round pick, two fifth round picks, and an undrafted guy.

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Old 05-27-2011, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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I just ask cause wouldn't you want Fitz over a unproven Jones.
Jones is also younger. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but high drafted players are like cars. Once you drive them off the lot (select them in the draft), their value tends to go down. In rare exceptions, they become extremely valuable.
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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I think Jones will be offensive rookie of the year and the falcons will have the best offense in the league next season but that isn't what was needed to get past g.b., the team you have to have in mind when boldly aiming for the superbowl with a trade like this. The pack put up 48 points at your place, Aaron Rodgers embarrassed the defense. There is no impact d.e. in free agency and a lot of competition for what's there + your best d.e. is a year or so away from retirement and better suited at l.e. anyways. Not to mention the w.r. need was for a #2 guy that coulda been had at great value with Greg Little in round 2. This woulda been a good move if the falcons were truly one player away or something but that's not the case here imho. It's not like they have an aging q.b. who's window of opportunity is closing or a defense that can afford to be neglected. It's not like the pack beat yall 14 - 10 either.....this was a desperate move by a delusioned owner, making it a bad trade.

B. Reed + G. Little + a first round pick in 2012 > J. Jones

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Old 05-02-2011, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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yes, Fitz is significantly better than Julio will ever be
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Old 05-02-2011, 03:46 AM    (permalink
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Do you think that if the ALT called AZ and offered two 1st rounders a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder for Fitz they would have taken it?
For those picks, they could have gotten any receiver in the league. Or they could have gotten Anquan Boldin twice PLUS Brandon Marshall twice.

Yes, Julio Jones cost twice as much as Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall together. Atlanta was on crack for that trade. It was a ******** Herschel Walker type of trade.

Oh, and you forgot a pick. There was another fourth rounder included.

Julio Jones cost more than a pro bowl franchise QB with a cheap contract coming off a 4500 yard season at age 25.

Incidentally, Mike Brown is really dumb for not taking the trade when he was offered it. But we've come to expect such things from him...

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Can't trade players so we'll never know.

*ring ring*
Cardinals: Whassup?
Falcons: Give me a list of who you want me to draft with these picks. When the lockout is lifted, I'll trade the rights to the players to you for Fitz.
Cardinals: Good idea. Go get a pen.

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Old 05-02-2011, 05:03 AM    (permalink
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Unlike most picks, next year will be very telling if this was a good idea.

If Atlanta gets to the Superbowl, trading up for the last piece to a contender seems like a great idea. If they get bounced early, trading away a ton of picks is stupid if favor of filling other holes.
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:39 AM    (permalink
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Trading two firsts for Keyshawn didn't stop the Bucs from winning a Super Bowl.

I think it's funny that people think the Julio trade was all about winning the Super Bowl next season. The guy just turned 22. He could potentially be an elite WR for a decade. It's not all about 2011.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Atl only gave up 1 first round draft pick in the trade not two why is this so hard for people to understand? Yeah they officially traded two, but we got one back in the trade.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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Atl only gave up 1 first round draft pick in the trade not two why is this so hard for people to understand? Yeah they officially traded two, but we got one back in the trade.
Would be the same as trading 2 for Fitzgerald. Yes, you kept one, but took a WR with it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Falcons wasnt gonna trade for a vet WR like Fitz who like Roddy White is around 30 years old. They said this a move for the future as well as the short term. Roddy White is 30 years old and while one of the best WR's in the league could only have 3 peak years left. Tony G could retire at any time and we all know about how long HB's left.

Falcons only gave up 4 players in this draft and two of them was 4th rounders. Here is a recent look at 4th round players drafted by the falcons since 2000. None of the guys they have drafted in the 4th round has went on to be anything to worry about losing.

C - Joe Hawley - Has yet to see the field
DE Lawrence Siburry - Can't get on the field with a weak DE unit
TE Martrez Milner - Never did anything
LB Stephen Nichols - average starter for a few years could sign with another team
DE Chuancy Davis - Still on the team avg at best rotaional guy
LB Demorro Williams - Had one solid year starter before leaving as a FA not sure if he is in the league anymore
FB Justin Griffith - nothing special and was drafted early for a FB
OG Martin Bibla - Did nothing
LB Matt Stewart - Did nothing
OG Michael Thompson - Dont't remember him
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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i have no idea why anyone ever makes a deal like this for a wide receiver. since 2000, only TWO top ten draft picks at the position have won a super bowl. and one is the immortal travis taylor, who lucked his way onto the ravens. wide receivers are *never* worth a top ten draft pick, and they're certainly not worth what atlanta gave up for one.
Almost not even worth responding to as I'm sure you'll run and hide behind your head moderator tag, but alas, I will try to explain.

Atlanta doesn't have roster room for that many players, period. So giving up 4 draft picks, and swapping 1, doesn't really hurt us, especially when 2 of those players were likely to not amount to much/if anything. Atlanta has been in this position before, when we could have moved to get Calvin Johnson and didn't, we stood pat with our 3 draft picks that year and drafted Jamaal Anderson, Chris Houston, and Laurent Robinson. 2/3 aren't on our roster, and 1 is just around cause he was the #8 overall selection.

The Falcons also don't want to go spend crazy money on someone like Fitzgerald, his contract is going to be insane next year to lock him down for the back end of his career. So the Falcons instead of just trying to win right now, which is what Fitz would have been, gave themselves the best opportunity to win now, and in the future. One thing I think people forget is Atlanta isn't going to be in a position to draft a WR like that for quite some time, and it's not a small step to go from good to elite either. So the Falcons are doing what they can to take that step.

The Falcons offense just went from one where any team in the league could drop the SS in the box to stop the run + add coverage on Tony, then Roll the Free Safety over the top to help on coverage with Roddy, and leave Michael Jenkins alone in 1 on 1 coverage and have no fear of an explosive play, except for an exceptional play by one of these players. The issue is, the guy who should have been raking in catches and yardage in 1 on 1 coverage plays super soft, and now after being a vet in the league for 6 seasons, he still has yet to record a 100 yard receiving game. Despite being 6'5 220+ he's one of the softest WRs in the league and refuses to use his frame, or come back to a ball for anything. Now the Falcons have a WR who will instill fear into opposing team's defenses to the point where you can't leave him 1 on 1 or he will house you on the regular.

Jones doesn't just transform an offense, he transforms a team. When your defense doesn't have to play from behind, or in close situations a lot, when your defense can take chances and have no qualms about your offense being able to catch you back up in 1 quick strike, it opens up not only offensive, but defensive playbooks as well. It also tells the players on the team, we are serious about winning now, and in the future. Jones is the picture perfect WR for the Atlanta Falcons, his workman attitude will fit in great, his blocking allows Atlanta to continue to pound the run which they will not stop doing, his athleticism allows Matt Ryan to not have to be perfect on every throw. His H/W/S causes mismatches everywhere on the field, and the dude isn't afraid to take a hit, and is tough as nails, plays through anything.

It also now allows the Falcons to run a set of Jones, Jenkins, White, Gonzo, Turner/Quizz. Giving the Falcons a 3 wide set with 5 tremendous pass catchers, and 3 playmakers. I understand you guys are all jealous that your Front Office doesn't go out and get your team a serious game changer, so I'll let you continue to gripe on, but how often can a 13-3 team dramatically improve themselves for what will likely be a #25+ draft pick next year, and a high 50s selection this year? The Answer, not often.

The Saints went out and traded a 2nd rounder this year, higher than the Falcons, and a 1st rounder next year, again likely a 25ish pick, for a Runningback who wasn't even the best running back on his own college team. Yet everyone is talking about the 2 -4th rounders we gave up, as if we really had room on the roster for them anyway. Wonder how many teams out there would have given up a top flight starting running back for a 1st and 2nd round pick, I'd be willing to bet Carolina, and a few others would have gladly moved Stewart or Williams for that price, and with the impending free agency of Ronnie Brown, could have been had for no draft picks.

So, you guys hate on all you want, just know it's your jealousy that's showing. When the #5 scoring offense in the NFL is able to dramatically improve itself, and give one of the brightest young QBs in the NFL a significantly better weapon, I'm happy to take it, and thankfully so were the Browns, and the Falcons front office.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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that's cute. 'i'm so oppressed because like, you're a mod, so let me start off with a bizarre, inane comment that has no relevance whatsoever to the conversation, so that when you DO reply, i can further compalin about how mean you are because you're a mod and like, your name is a different color than mine. boo fricking hoo.'

grow up.



so, you should always package your draft picks so that you don't have to cut players (which you'll do anyways) and so that a bad scouting department isn't exposed? that seems... logical, or something.



so, instead of spending crazy money on a WR who's actually proven that he can play in the nfl, you're going to spend crazy money on a WR who's proven nothing. brilliant. but hey, look at all of those stud wrs who've won the super bowl. oh... right.



why would i fear a rookie who's proven nothing in the nfl? i do appreciate the assumption that he's already a top tier nfl wideout, it's cute, but until he actually shows that he can beat an nfl cb, or run an nfl route, no one cares.



ah, more "he's already a top tier nfl receiver, and he's so good that he's actually made the defense better". is that why the lions won so many more games the year after they drafted calvin johnson? is that why the texans have gone to the playoffs so many times with andre johnson? is that why the cardinals won so many super bowls with fitz AND boldin? let me know when you catch onto the theme.



yes, i'm *jealous* that the broncos didn't trade their next 53 first round picks to take a wide receiver in the top ten. how'd you know? every single time i think something is stupid, it's clearly just jealousy.



i.e. - waaaaaaah, someone else did it to! why are you picking on us! other teams make dumb trades!



yup, not only am i 'jealous' i'm also 'hating'. i mean, you were clearly a julio jones away from winning the super bowl for the next decade straight.
LMAO @ you. Your Man Thong must be riding up.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Atlanta doesn't have roster room for that many players, period. So giving up 4 draft picks, and swapping 1, doesn't really hurt us, especially when 2 of those players were likely to not amount to much/if anything.
This argument always baffles me. If Atlanta's roster is so packed with talent, top to bottom that they don't actually have to make draft picks and they're basically obligated to trade away picks... explain to me why teams with better rosters, like New England and Green Bay made 9 and 10 draft picks respectively.

The argument doesn't make sense anyway. How is a team in any way lessened by bringing in guys to compete for the roles of the middle of the roster guys. It's not like Atlanta was incapable of improving at any position other than wide receiver (you have to admit they could use help on defense, too.) Training camp competition makes your team better. You start training camp with 80 guys, no matter how many guys you drafted, and you end up cutting at least 27 of those guys. Personally, I would prefer to end up cutting 27 good players because the rest of my players are even better.

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Old 05-02-2011, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Julio made the best sense for the team both short and long term. The biggest gripe is the falcons could have used the 1st round pick on a DE. Look at the DE's that was off the board by pick #27 Miller, Watt, Claborn, Jordan, Quinn, Kerrigan. They would have been left picking the 7th ranked DE from the likes of Haywood, Brooks Reed, Sheard. The falcons have lots of bodies at DE just most of them are rotaional guys. A rookie DE would have just been another rotaion guy. If falcons are able to sign a good FA DE the trade makes more sense.

The other positon you potential could have used was CB, but the top 2 was off the board. Jimmy Smith was never gonna be a falcon with his off the field stuff. They also wasn't gonna draft a DT or S in the first round. They wasn't a OLB worth the pick either really.

Most of the core at every positon is set and they figured it was worth giving up 2 players in this years draft to take a WR. We still filled needs with the other 6 picks.


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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
This argument always baffles me. If Atlanta's roster is so packed with talent, top to bottom that they don't actually have to make draft picks and they're basically obligated to trade away picks... explain to me why teams with better rosters, like New England and Green Bay made 9 and 10 draft picks respectively.

The argument doesn't make sense anyway. How is a team in any way lessened by bringing in guys to compete for the roles of the middle of the roster guys. It's not like Atlanta was incapable of improving at any position other than wide receiver (you have to admit they could use help on defense, too.) Training camp competition makes your team better. You start training camp with 80 guys, no matter how many guys you drafted, and you end up cutting at least 27 of those guys. Personally, I would prefer to end up cutting 27 good players because the rest of my players are even better.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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i remember not too long ago the Browns traded down in the Mark Sanchez situation and got a good not great player in Alex Mack. They may have done the same thing here. Like they couldn't use Julio Jones?

as a general note Julio was way underrated, all draft season. He ran a 4.3 on a broken foot. He made a ton of huge plays at Bama and he run blocks like a beast. For a playoff team like the falcons, extra draft picks aren't gonna make the roster, better off getting a real blue chipper.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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People can come up with this reason and that reason why the Falcons made a bad trade, but I doubt even the harshest critic of the team will have a problem with it if Jones plays up to his potential for a long time. He just turned 22 and could be helping Matt Ryan for the next decade. When Roddy White starts slowing down, the Falcons won't need to worry about finding a new go-to WR. Obviously, the Falcons would be in big trouble if Jones struggles with durability or just busts.
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Old 06-20-2011, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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i remember not too long ago the Browns traded down in the Mark Sanchez situation and got a good not great player in Alex Mack. They may have done the same thing here. Like they couldn't use Julio Jones?

as a general note Julio was way underrated, all draft season. He ran a 4.3 on a broken foot. He made a ton of huge plays at Bama and he run blocks like a beast. For a playoff team like the falcons, extra draft picks aren't gonna make the roster, better off getting a real blue chipper.
Alex Mack is one of the top 10 centers in the league and like what 23 years old?

Pretty sure I would consider him a great player.
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Old 06-24-2011, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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Now you're trying to change your argument from "Julio plays slow" to "You don't need elite speed...". I doubt you really even believe he plays slow. You're just another poster on a message board who can't make an argument without exaggerating.

And the reason I said Julio is fast is because Julio is fast. The LSU games just backs up my point. You obviously don't want to accept any evidence of the truth.
Jesus Christ, you're an idiot.

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Originally Posted by SativaDominant
The problem here is that we're working with an inherently flawed premise. It's common knowledge that you don't need elite speed - whether it's timed or "playing" speed - to do well against any collegiate defense. Trying to equivocate success to speed is where the disconnect in logic occurs.
First of all, look at that bolded, italicized word. Collegiate. Cute how you end my quote with an elipses after “You don’t need elite speed” instead of finishing my god damn sentence. Further on this point, you don’t need elite speed to do well against NFL defenses either. Again, though, there is a reason that Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall were drafted in the second AND traded for a couple second round picks each instead of two firsts, a second, and two fourths.

The original question of this thread and my subsequent argument were that the Falcons ceded too much in their trade for him and that he was over-valued as a prospect. That was my original argument, it has been in this entire thread. I gave multiple reasons for it.

YOU are trying to paint my argument as "lolz he slowz." I've acknowledged that he has elite top end speed. It's evident in that video you posted (although, his poor acceleration is also painfully obvious as well), and it was evident in his sup 4.4 forty time.

His playing speed is a sub-argument of my original argument. I have not changed or flip-flopped on anything. You either lack the reading comprehension skills or the attention span to understand that an argument can go beyond one small point.

So I'll summarize this all again, and in a simple outline so you can understand it this time.

Thesis: The Falcons gave up too much for Julio Jones

I. WR is not an inherently valuable position
A. Even with gaudy statistical success, highly drafted wide receivers have historically had little to no impact when it comes to helping a team win a Superbowl
B. The type of WR role the Falcons were looking to upgrade - possession receiver with YAC ability - is even LESS valuable than a number one receiver, and can easily be filled with later picks.
II. Julio Jones was overvalued as a prospect.
A. Goes hand in hand with point I-B. He’s perfect for the role they want to use him in. Once again, though, that role isn’t inherently valuable.
B. Excellent measurables and production, but translatable NFL traits suggest a #2 receiver in a #1's body
1. Has poor acceleration/doesn’t play as fast as timed
2. Struggles tracking ball in the air
3. Loses speed out of breaks, despite relatively good hip flexibility for a man his size
C. Wide receiver was arguably the deepest position in this draft class
Wanna see the player Julio Jones was cloned from? He was arguably the best blocking WR in the NFL, too. The similarities are astounding.

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Old 06-24-2011, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Jesus Christ, you're an idiot.
That's not a nice thing to say about our lord almighty savior in heaven. Besides, he's not the one that makes you create multiple accounts. I'd bump this thread to rub your nose in it when Jones is killing it in the NFL, but you'll have probably gone through 5 more accounts by then.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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This argument always baffles me. If Atlanta's roster is so packed with talent, top to bottom that they don't actually have to make draft picks and they're basically obligated to trade away picks... explain to me why teams with better rosters, like New England and Green Bay made 9 and 10 draft picks respectively.

The argument doesn't make sense anyway. How is a team in any way lessened by bringing in guys to compete for the roles of the middle of the roster guys. It's not like Atlanta was incapable of improving at any position other than wide receiver (you have to admit they could use help on defense, too.) Training camp competition makes your team better. You start training camp with 80 guys, no matter how many guys you drafted, and you end up cutting at least 27 of those guys. Personally, I would prefer to end up cutting 27 good players because the rest of my players are even better.
This is a really weak draft, and you're talking about a 13-3 team with a really great core of very young players. There comes a point of diminishing returns, of course you want competition, and you want your team to keep getting better, but in order to step up from a 13-3 team to a big winner in the playoffs you have to have another level of talent. Bringing in late first, 2nd, and 4th rounders weren't going to change that bar at the WR position.

Falcons Roster:
QB: Ryan (star w/ superstar potential), Redman (qualified backup played well when called upon) John Parker Wilson (developmental clipboard guy)
RB: Turner (Pro Bowler), Norwood (crazy injury prone had to be replaced), Snelling (ultra productive backup), Rodgers (just drafted to replace Norwood)
FB: Mughelli (Pro Bowler, best run blocking FB in the NFL) Snelling
TE: Tony (HoFer heading towards the twilight) Peelle(suitable backup, good blocker, solid hands, no big play potential) Nothing else of note.
WR: Roddy (emerging superstar WR), Jenkins (soft, non competitive #2 WR), Douglas (coming back from injury, we'll see if he's 100% this year, not to be relied upon as a #2 for sure) Finneran (retiring), Meirer (showed promise in camp until injured, may not be worth much coming off major knee injury) Weems (Pro Bowl kick return guy, not much of a threat in terms of WR)
OL: Solid across the board, with 2 Pro Bowlers and a 3rd with Pro Bowl potential, LT is still a point of concern

DE: Abe (aging star), Kroy (try hard with super motor, hasn't had great production yet), Anderson (busted #8 overall selection, gives good swing ability) Sidbury (4th round selection with great ability, but unable to see the field other than special teams) Davis (qualified backup) Another area of concern
DT: Babs (one of the most underrated players in the NFL), Jerry (coming back from knee injury, showed great burst towards the end of the season) Peters (stepped in and played great as a 3rd rounder) Walker (had a couple of very nice games, tons of potential)
OLB: Spoon (1st round pick with tons of production before his injuries, looking for big things) Peterson (long in the tooth, yet somehow still a playmaker) Nicolas (great pass rusher, not the best scheme fit, may go in FA) Wire (great depth and ST player)
MLB: Lofton (potential star MLB with Pro Bowl potential, fought through injuries a lot last year) Wire (again great depth here) Dent (3rd round pick for additional depth and ST play)
CB: Robinson (played well but not great, hoping he gets more comfortable this year in his new scheme) Grimes (over achiever to the max) Williams (old, slow, time to go) Franks (flashed against Fitzgerald in the Cardinals game with a pick and pass breakup on the 2 passes thrown his way, should be nickel this year) Owens (showed great potential late in his rookie year, but struggled a bit trying to play nickel last year) Another area that the Falcons could use an upgrade)
S: Decoud (Pro Bowl caliber player) Moore (potential stud SS with tons of playmaking ability) Depth behind is fine


As you can see, there aren't a lot of positions with room for people to just come in.

DE, CB, WR, OLB. Sucks that 3 of the 4 are on defense, but where the Falcons are picking, they don't need more warm bodies, they need difference makers, and if that means getting all the way up to #6 for a WR who can change the face of an offense, so be it.

The issue I'm sure you can see is that it's going to take some big time talents to come in and take positions from the guys even at the question spots, it's going to take a big Free Agent defensive end someone who is polished and understands the game, not another youngster trying to adapt. This team given the schedule is looking like another 11+ win season is on the way, of course barring major injuries.

I know the Falcons aren't a flawless team, but they need to get to that next level, and mid rounders don't get you there, heck, not even many late firsts get you there at skill positions.
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