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Old 01-17-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
BeerBaron
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Default RGIII Trade Rumors Begin Already

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...rumor-emerges/

It's never too early to start speculating.

With the Colts almost certainly taking Luck, the Rams not needing a QB at #2 and such a steep drop from Griffin to the next tier of QBs, it looks like that pick being traded is inevitable.

Cleveland kicks off the rumor mill. They have the most ammunition and Griffin will provide a spark to that very, very dull offense.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Cleveland just makes too much sense. "The time has come," the Walrus said. They moved out of that 5 spot last year to procure the necessary ammo to trade up this year for their franchise QB. If they don't do it, the trade down last year will have largely went to waste.

I think Washington will throw big bucks at Flynn this offseason. Shanny and Snyder won't have the patient to go in and develop a rookie QB - they're going to want to plug somebody in who can come and run that system immediately, and Flynn can do that.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Colt McCoy sure as hell isn't leading them anywhere. His 5.9 YPA is 2nd worst in the league only behind Gabbert. Even if you adjust for the (lack of) supporting talent, that's horrific.

Griffin at least would bring you the chance to "Cam Newton" his way to a few victories. He'd bring a little bit of dynamism to the offense.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Colt McCoy sure as hell isn't leading them anywhere. His 5.9 YPA is 2nd worst in the league only behind Gabbert. Even if you adjust for the (lack of) supporting talent, that's horrific.

Griffin at least would bring you the chance to "Cam Newton" his way to a few victories. He'd bring a little bit of dynamism to the offense.
Not sure i see the weapons there on offense to "Cam Newton" anyone. Besides Griffin has a long way to go to be in Cam's class but that's probably just me.

On the other hand the Browns defense kept them in near every game so i guess any improvement at the QB position would result in more wins going forward.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Hmm. I don't know. I might be tempted to call the Rams bluff if I'm the Browns. No way they would seriously move forward with Griffin with the type of resources they have invested in Bradford. If the price is right, I could see them pulling the trigger to be safe though.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
Because you're unsold about RG3? Think McCoy can be a decent starter? Or because you'd rather have the "value" of more players?

I dunno, I wouldn't want McCoy starting a game for my team, ever, no matter how much talent is around him. WR and RB are both ridiculously deep and the FA class at WR will be pretty loaded, too.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Because you're unsold about RG3? Think McCoy can be a decent starter? Or because you'd rather have the "value" of more players?
A combination of all of those to be honest.

Ever since guys like Big Ben, Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco were sooo amazing in their rookies seasons, apparently nobody wants to give a QB a chance to develop. Add in the fact that all of those teams were exponentially more talented than the Browns and I think it's fair to give McCoy another shot with legitimate, NFL caliber playmakers.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
Yeah, no. The easiest way to win in the NFL right now is with a great QB. McCoy isn't even adequate. His ceiling and floor are about an inch apart.

You're better served going all in for a chance at someone who may become an elite QB than to doom yourself to mediocrity with one you know isn't.

There's the off chance that in like 7 years with a really, really good rest of the team meticulously built through years of careful drafting that a mediocre QB could become Alex Smith.

But do you really want to wait?

No. Go for the potentially elite QB. McCoy is awful.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, no. The easiest way to win in the NFL right now is with a great QB. McCoy isn't even adequate. His ceiling and floor are about an inch apart.

You're better served going all in for a chance at someone who may become an elite QB than to doom yourself to mediocrity with one you know isn't.

There's the off chance that in like 7 years with a really, really good rest of the team meticulously built through years of careful drafting that a mediocre QB could become Alex Smith.

But do you really want to wait?

No. Go for the potentially elite QB. McCoy is awful.
If McCoy isn't the answer, that's fine, I know he most likely isn't. However, I would rather trade my 2013 and 2014 first rounders to move up for a QB next year after acquiring talent to help them succeed. That's how I think a team should be built.
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Old 01-20-2012, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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If McCoy isn't the answer, that's fine, I know he most likely isn't. However, I would rather trade my 2013 and 2014 first rounders to move up for a QB next year after acquiring talent to help them succeed. That's how I think a team should be built.
well said, sir
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
The best part about this post is what it says about the state of Browns fans.

Regardless of which group of players they'll roll with, fear the elf is automatically assuming that he's going to have to take his lumps... lol

He didn't say "I think we'd be better off with..." or "we have a better chance to win with..." No. He already knows the team is going to suck so he's just choosing guys based on who he wants to see suffer.

I'm sorry, Cleveland.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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The best part about this post is what it says about the state of Browns fans.

Regardless of which group of players they'll roll with, fear the elf is automatically assuming that he's going to have to take his lumps... lol

He didn't say "I think we'd be better off with..." or "we have a better chance to win with..." No. He already knows the team is going to suck so he's just choosing guys based on who he wants to see suffer.

I'm sorry, Cleveland.
It is sad, but 2 winning seasons since 1999 coupled with one of the worst offenses in that time will do that. I think without a huge influx of talent at the skill positions and an upgrade at RT this team will have to rely on the defense to win every game, which it just isn't equipped to do yet.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
There is this amazing thing called free agency and a ton of good players in it this year.

I also doubt we would have to give up the ATL first round pick to move up two spots, probably only our second rounder and maybe a future third.

RG3 + Wright + (insert random free agent receiver out of the million that will be there) + (insert Hillis or one of the random free agent running backs out of the million that will be there) > McCoy + anything
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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There is this amazing thing called free agency and a ton of good players in it this year.

I also doubt we would have to give up the ATL first round pick to move up two spots, probably only our second rounder and maybe a future third.

RG3 + Wright + (insert random free agent receiver out of the million that will be there) + (insert Hillis or one of the random free agent running backs out of the million that will be there) > McCoy + anything
Condescension is not going to help convince me. I'm aware of the existence of free agency, thanks though, WB.

Assuming we are active in free agency, I would still rather roll with McCoy this year and move up (if needed) in the 2013 draft for a QB if needed.

I prefer not to bring a rookie QB into the worst offense since the team came back in '99. Get some pieces at other positions this year, go after Tyler Wilson next year.
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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Condescension is not going to help convince me. I'm aware of the existence of free agency, thanks though, WB.

Assuming we are active in free agency, I would still rather roll with McCoy this year and move up (if needed) in the 2013 draft for a QB if needed.

I prefer not to bring a rookie QB into the worst offense since the team came back in '99. Get some pieces at other positions this year, go after Tyler Wilson next year.
I just see no benefit in sticking with McCoy. He has no deep ball, poor accuracy and a small frame. I like him as a person and hes tough as hell but he isn't any good.

This team could be an 8 win team next year if we are active in free agency as Heckertt said we would be and get a good quarterback whether it be Matt Flynn or RG3.

I would love to see this team grow a sack and do something to get some playmakers. Flynn Blackmon Stevie Johnson and Little would be 10x better than what we have right now. Get over the whole Hillis bull **** and bring him back then go out and get a right tackle and RDE and we would be light years ahead of where we are.

Lots to do, but we have a ridiculously large amount of cap space and there really is no reason not to go wild in this free agent class.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Condescension is not going to help convince me. I'm aware of the existence of free agency, thanks though, WB.

Assuming we are active in free agency, I would still rather roll with McCoy this year and move up (if needed) in the 2013 draft for a QB if needed.

I prefer not to bring a rookie QB into the worst offense since the team came back in '99. Get some pieces at other positions this year, go after Tyler Wilson next year.
The trouble with this theory is that by adding supporting talent, you don't necessarily get to draft top 5, you can never guarantee 4 wins and 6 wins takes you to possibly #10 in the draft and trading down from there becomes much more difficult and far more expensive. Your saying, waiting till next year which could cost them the #10 pick vs this year which may only cost them a 2nd rounder or the 22nd pick in round 1, makes sense. I see no sense in it.

Even if a rookie QB has success in year 1, it usually takes 3 to 4 years before they can be called a finished product capable of taking a team all the way to the Super Bowl, every year you put off drafting a potential franchise QB, you are adding a year to that 3 or 4 year period, that's an awful long wait for us Cleveland fans.

Then there is the strong possibility that if the Browns gamble on McCoy and he fails, that Holmgren and the whole management team is fired within a few years and I doubt our management team is willing to take that risk unless they are absolutely positive that McCoy is the answer. You have to remember that continual losing does lead to empty stadiums and a huge loss in revenue and few owners ever put up with that fact.

The coaching staff will make the decision on McCoy not another year of playing, if they believe strongly that he can develop into a solid starter, you won't hear about Cleveland moving up for a QB, but if they turn thumbs down on McCoy, then they trade up at whatever the cost or sign Flynn. They aren't going to stand pat unless their belief in McCoy is absolute.
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Old 01-19-2012, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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The trouble with this theory is that by adding supporting talent, you don't necessarily get to draft top 5, you can never guarantee 4 wins and 6 wins takes you to possibly #10 in the draft and trading down from there becomes much more difficult and far more expensive. Your saying, waiting till next year which could cost them the #10 pick vs this year which may only cost them a 2nd rounder or the 22nd pick in round 1, makes sense. I see no sense in it.
I feel like we have this discussion every year in the team forum (since our QB always sucks). I disagree; in my opinion, you build the team first so you can place a young QB in a situation that gives him every opportunity to succeed. It's hard enough being a young QB on a good team, let alone a team like ours.

Just look at how many "good" QBs there are in this league...maybe 15? And that's with the dozen or so graduating each year. If there are 15 "good" QBs out of hundreds that try, it must be pretty freaking hard...why not make it as easy as possible?

If we get the talent in place this season and we are just a QB away for the 2013 draft, then trade the #1, #2, and a future #1 and get that **** done. Until we get to that point, I'd rather avoid another Tim Couch situation.

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Even if a rookie QB has success in year 1, it usually takes 3 to 4 years before they can be called a finished product capable of taking a team all the way to the Super Bowl, every year you put off drafting a potential franchise QB, you are adding a year to that 3 or 4 year period, that's an awful long wait for us Cleveland fans.
I agree, it can take 3 or 4 years, yet we want to be done with Colt after 2. Again, he has very little support around him, and I'm not saying he's the answer, but until there is a WR with legitimate NFL talent and somebody that blocks on the right side, what's the point in bringing in someone else? So they can have their confidence destroyed when they are leveled by T-Sizzle and Harrison/Woodley while their WRs drop the most passes in the NFL?

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Then there is the strong possibility that if the Browns gamble on McCoy and he fails, that Holmgren and the whole management team is fired within a few years and I doubt our management team is willing to take that risk unless they are absolutely positive that McCoy is the answer. You have to remember that continual losing does lead to empty stadiums and a huge loss in revenue and few owners ever put up with that fact.
The stadium keeps filling up every season for the past decade+ of misery and ineptitude, why would next year be the tipping point? No way do we turn over the entire FO unless we go 2-14 or worse.

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The coaching staff will make the decision on McCoy not another year of playing, if they believe strongly that he can develop into a solid starter, you won't hear about Cleveland moving up for a QB, but if they turn thumbs down on McCoy, then they trade up at whatever the cost or sign Flynn. They aren't going to stand pat unless their belief in McCoy is absolute.
I don't agree with that. If it makes sense to make a move they will, but they won't just draft or sign somebody that they don't believe in just because they aren't sold on McCoy. You don't go out and say, "hey, I don't really like Flynn/RGIII, but lets bring him in because I don't like Colt either." What sense does that make?
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
I also doubt we would have to give up the ATL first round pick to move up two spots, probably only our second rounder and maybe a future third.
Are you forgetting the Washington Redskins, Miami Dolphins & Seattle Seahawks ? Not to mention another team who could surprise and sneak into the mix ? If the Browns want RG3 they are going to have to compete with other teams looking to get up to 2 or 3. So that 2nd first rounder will possibly need to be in play (or a 2013 first rounder). Why would St. Louis trade back with you for 4, 37 & a future 3rd if one of those other teams is offering this years 1 & 2 + a future #1 ?

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Lots to do, but we have a ridiculously large amount of cap space and there really is no reason not to go wild in this free agent class.
Reason A : Washington Redskins.

Reason B : Philadelphia Eagles and the so called dream team.

Spending wildly in free agency doesn't equal wins. Spending wisely is the ticket. Look at my 49ers as an example of wise spending in free agency...we had a need at corner, so we spent a 3rd on Culliver and a couple bags of flaming hot cheetos on Rodgers. Philly traded for DRC and spent the cost of a small tropical island on Aso.

Cleveland should use some of that cap room giving extensions to players of merit and look to add pieces from the free agent market that are of good value and fit in with the scheme and vision of this team. Perhaps you splurge on a player or two....depending on who they are.

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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
I think Matt Flynn plays a large role in the RGIII sweepstakes. If Cleveland signs him then obviously you don't have to jump into the top 4 picks to get Griffin. You'd probably have to jump in front of Washington though, and Washington might want to trade up to secure him (much like people are talking about the Browns doing right now), but how high would be high enough? The Dolphins are the other threat, but of course they'd have to pay the most being farther down in the order.

If Flynn goes to Washington then you'd think that Cleveland would be much more likely to call the Rams/Vikings bluff and let RGIII slide to them without a trade up. Miami would have to give up a boatload to move up into the top 3 picks.

I also look at it like this:

-There are really 3 elite players the Rams could use at the top of the draft: Kalil, Claiborne, and maybe Blackmon.
-Kalil and Claiborne you have to figure at this point are going to be their top 2 targets (I think Claiborne will be considered BPA over Blackmon on most teams' boards).
-If they trade down to #4 then they should get one of those guys.
-If they have to trade down to #6 or #8/9 then they'll have to settle for a 2nd tier guy like Kirkpatrick, Coples, or someone else.

I think the top 5 picks are a lot more valuable in this draft than say picks 6-10 for a lot of teams. There really is Luck/Kalil/Claiborne/Griffin then Blackmon/Kirkpatrick/Coples/Richardson and then a bit of a gap right now it seems. This factor might make the Browns not have to pay so much to trade with the Rams compared to Miami or Washington. Then again someone like Kirkpatrick could really rise and screw this theory up, there's a lot of time between now and late April.
I said something along these lines earlier.

However, the Rams need to play it close to the chest and they likely will. They will likely try to get the most out of Cleveland that they possibly can and use other offers on the table to their advantage/as leverage.

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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Let's say Washington scoops up Flynn in FA, who does Cleveland have to be afraid of to jump them in that scenario? STL or Minnesota won't take RGIII, and
Miami is the only team with an even remote shot at getting up there, but the cost will be much steeper, and will STL or Minn want to move down that far and miss out on Kalil or Blackmon?


I mean, maybe they trade up because when your talking about your franchise QB for the next 13 years why risk it, but if Washington gets out of the picture I'm not sure they have to jump up those 2 spots.
Seattle is a threat to trade up. They sit outside the top 10 yes, but it is not out of the realm that they sacrifice a bunch of picks to get ahead of Cleveland. Last offseason they made there attempts to fix the line, get a #1 receiver and add another tight end...once they resign Lynch all that remains on offense is to get a QB. I could see them dipping back into the free agent market to add depth and some defensive pieces and move all their chips in to landing RG3. It may have to be by way of Minnesota as St.Louis may not want to assist them in landing a QB.

But if Cleveland sits still at 4 they could get screwed by Miami or Seattle making that move. Then they get stuck with a lesser prospect.

Last edited by H.O.O.D : 01-18-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 01-17-2012, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.

And the second you see RG3 roll out, out run T Suggs or Woodley for a 22 yard gain you'll be in love.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fear the elf View Post
I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
In today's NFL, I don't think any RB prospect is worth taking over any 1st round QB prospect if your teams needs a QB, and the Browns need a QB.

Same for WR except maybe some leniency on the quality of prospect - I don't know if Blackmon is that, though.

For a team lacking much success in recent years, the Browns have ignored taking a QB early way too much. Since 99, they've done it once (in 99) and it's not like they weren't in positions to try it.
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Old 01-17-2012, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...rumor-emerges/

It's never too early to start speculating.

With the Colts almost certainly taking Luck, the Rams not needing a QB at #2 and such a steep drop from Griffin to the next tier of QBs, it looks like that pick being traded is inevitable.

Cleveland kicks off the rumor mill. They have the most ammunition and Griffin will provide a spark to that very, very dull offense.
Cleveland also makes the most sense from the Rams perspective.

-The Rams could sit at 4 and while Kalil is most likely gone, can choose between Claiborne and Blackmon (trading with Washington, Miami or further down would likely take them out of contention for both of those players), and allow them to get the top prospect at a critical position of need for them.

The 2nd pick could be WR/CB or OL (or perhaps even another area of need) as there should be good talent still available at those spots when the pick comes up. they would also have 3 new players to try and plug in to the lineup from the top 40.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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The Browns have two firsts and a early second so if they trade #5 and #37 to the Rams they would still be able to get weapons for Griffin if they got him. They could even trade up again and get Richardson if he falls to about #10. If not they can get Kendall Wright (which would be best case scenario) or Michael Floyd, Sanu or Jeffery. Plus there are some top WR free agents so they could get Richardson by trading a 2013 1st round pick and get a Vincent Jackson in free agency.

Now an offense of:

Griffin - Richardson - V.Jackson - Little

The Browns offense would be explosive then! And this is a very possible situation as well.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
The Browns have two firsts and a early second so if they trade #5 and #37 to the Rams they would still be able to get weapons for Griffin if they got him. They could even trade up again and get Richardson if he falls to about #10. If not they can get Kendall Wright (which would be best case scenario) or Michael Floyd, Sanu or Jeffery. Plus there are some top WR free agents so they could get Richardson by trading a 2013 1st round pick and get a Vincent Jackson in free agency.

Now an offense of:

Griffin - Richardson - V.Jackson - Little

The Browns offense would be explosive then! And this is a very possible situation as well.
It's sooo very unlikely that'll happen though. Just about every team in the league will be willing to give Vincent Jackson the big money if he decides to leave the Chargers and I doubt he'd pick the Browns out of all them. Specally since he's 99% likely to be signed before the Draft. Anytime you count on stocking your roster up with big time free agents your doomed to fail cuz it's unpredictable not to mention that sometimes even when you DO win in free agency it can work out completely different from how you expected (for examples ask the Eagles this year or the Redskins who've depended on FA for years and never got anywhere). Not saying the Browns shouldn't pick RG3 but they need to be smart so they can load up on talent later in the Draft. I mean honestly I think Washington will pick up their franchise QB in free agency since their not afraid to throw money around (Matt Flynn or POSSIBLY Peyton Manning) and i'm not sold that Seattle and Miami are convinced they need a QB bad enuff to give a kings ransom for one even RG3 so Cleveland may be able to sit at #4 and get RG3 if this offseason works out just right for them.
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Old 01-17-2012, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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I think Cleveland goes after Matt Flynn, especially since Holmgren isn't afraid to take on QB's to be starters(Hasselbeck part 2?). Holmgren then could go Richardson/Blackmon at 4 then go Miller/Jeffery at 21
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