So do people still believe the Patriots skill players are good?

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Pretty obvious they have a fast paced up tempo scheme and an all world QB who inflates these players stats.

Wes Welker kind of is a joke. Put him on a run first team like the 49ers and tell me how he'd fare. Deion Branch and Julian Edelman could do what he does.

Kaepernick only had 215 yards but on 25 attempts making that a YPA of 8.6. Brady had 440+ yards on 65 throws making that a YPA of 6.8.

So you get all these loser fans that go gaga over welker's "number of catches" even though half the time he's catching little underneath crap thanks to Brady having a lightning quick release.

To sum up, Patriots run a diferent type of offense than most teams which allows them to get several more offensive plays off than the other team due to the tempo. This inflates their skill player stats along with the all world QB play they have with Brady.

Put a Michael Crabtree on the Patriots and he'd destroy Welker's output.

[Ness]

[descendency]

I find it funny that you say Edelman or Branch could do it, because the games without Welker have been disastrous for NE (since 2007, when he was traded for).

For example, Welker was inactive (torn acl) during the Ravens playoff game in 2009. It was one of Brady's worst games ever.

[Halsey]

Did Wes Welker kick your dog?

[PACKmanN]

Thanks for telling us how good Brady is, but Rodgers is better

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by descendency

I find it funny that you say Edelman or Branch could do it, because the games without Welker have been disastrous for NE (since 2007, when he was traded for).

For example, Welker was inactive (torn acl) during the Ravens playoff game in 2009. It was one of Brady's worst games ever.

And as we all know, Welker being gone is why they lost that Ravens game. The 6 catches for 44 yards and 2 TDs by Julian Edelman just weren't enough in that 33-14 blowout loss. Clearly, with Welker, they win that game easily.

First, Welker would've STUFFED Ray Rice. No 22-159-2 for him.

Then, he would've stopped Brady from throwing 3 interceptions, and kept those linebackers/scrub corners from shutting down Randy Moss. ...



Edelman also caught 8 passes for 98 years against the Jets in week 2 of the 2009 season with Welker out, and 10 passes for 103 yards against the Texans in the season finale after Welker left the game early with the torn ACL.

Yeah, he's just so hard to replace. Who else can catch screen passes and run behind a convoy of blockers for 7 yards? Who else can run drag routes and beat a linebacker and get 7-10 yards? Who else can get open off a pick play over the middle?

Just so rare to find guys who can do those things, maaaan.

[Bengalsrz]

I don't think its fair to question that some of the players Brady has been able to throw to over the years haven't been spectacular players (Gronk, Welker, Hernandez, Moss) but he does have an uncanny ability to make the offense work almost just as well with the next man up.

I do think Brady inflates the perceived talent level of the players around him, but a lot of them are still great players and this kind of thing happens with all elite quarterbacks.

[prock]

Gronk and Hernandez are terrible, no idea why people think Brady has good weapons.

[cmarq83]

Originally Posted by prock

Gronk and Hernandez are terrible, no idea why people think Brady has good weapons.

Thank god for the system inflating his numbers, or else this guy would be out flipping burgers

[JordanTaber]

Glad someone started a thread on this so I didn't have to.

Carlos Rogers shadowed Welker all game long and completely shut him out last night. Welker didn't beat him even once.

Rogers is a good corner...and that's what happens when a good corner covers a guy who is really a #3 caliber receiver. But Rogers couldn't cover Danny Amendola earlier this season...which is interesting.

Is Welker even as "good" as Amendola?

I think it's just silly that people still can't see what has been going on here. He plays for the same coach from when 8th round pick career #3 receiver Troy Brown caught 83 passes in 2000, 101 in 2001 and 97 in 2002. The same coach who put Brown and Julian Edelman at corner and got results. The same coach who lined Mike Vrabel up at tight end in goal line situations to go out and catch passes.

Belichick has an enormous ego, and he loves rubbing it in everyone else's face that he can win with anyone. He loves making stars out of journeymen caliber players like Danny Woodhead, Wes Welker, and Troy Brown. Other brilliant minds have tried this and wound up getting burned by their own egos - Mike Shanahan and Mike Martz are prime examples. As great as their schemes are/were, their offenses are still much better if they have actual talent to enhance the effect of what they do.

Belichick, on the other hand, has found the right balance for himself - he'll acquire a Randy Moss or a Brandon Lloyd to put it over the top when reality hits in the playoffs.

[Halsey]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Glad someone started a thread on this so I didn't have to.

Yes you did, you just created another account. You made a similar thread the other day, which got deleted for violating the rules. lol

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by Halsey

Yes you did, you just created another account. You made a similar thread the other day, which got deleted for violating the rules. lol

Yeah, that must be it...have the mods check the IP address if you're so convinced.

[Caulibflower]

I think Bill Belechick just smiles a little to himself every time Welker makes the Pro Bowl.

[FUNBUNCHER]

Has Brady ever had even a mediocre WR corps, excluding TEs??

It's criminal IMO that Belichick has never surrounded Brady with dynamic, explosive talent at wideout for the majority of his career.

[G Mobile]

Im

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

Has Brady ever had even a mediocre WR corps, excluding TEs??

It's criminal IMO that Belichick has never surrounded Brady with dynamic, explosive talent at wideout for the majority of his career.

I'm not sure if your serious. Brady had Moss, Welker & Stallworth and set QB records. Granted Brady had to deal with the Troy Browns and Caldwells for too long, but the offense didn't rely on passing like it does now.

[WCH]

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

Put a Michael Crabtree on the Patriots and he'd destroy Welker's output.

Wait a minute...is this another one of those "49er Player A is better than Other Player B" threads?

[Don Vito]

Originally Posted by WCH

Wait a minute...is this another one of those "49er Player A is better than Other Player B" threads?

This might be trollception

[HypocrisyIsGreat]

Originally Posted by WCH

Wait a minute...is this another one of those "49er Player A is better than Other Player B" threads?

You really believe Welker is a more skilled football player than Michael Crabtree?
Hahahahahahahahaha

[Swoll_Cat]

and just to touch base with the initial argument, how significantly better do the patriots become if they swap receivers with SF? wes welker, brandon lloyd, and deion branch for crabtree, moss, manningham, and kyle williams. with of the utmost ease, crabtree becomes a 1000+ yard receiver while eclipsing 10 td's for the first time in his career. manningham (under the premise that he is healthy) also surpasses his career high in yards set with the giants (944). moreover, kyle williams statistics manifest somewhere in the 700 yard 3-4 touch down range. this notion is without a doubt plausible, given each player's upside and brady's abilities

[WCH]

I opted out of this thread on page 2, after this false inference by HypocrisyIsGreat:

Originally Posted by HypocrisyIsGreat

You really believe Welker is a more skilled football player than Michael Crabtree?
Hahahahahahahahaha

[FUNBUNCHER]

Brady had all those guys together for a couple seasons??

I still would argue the weakest position group during the Brady era has been the WRs.

[Caulibflower]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

I still would argue the weakest position group during the Brady era has been the WRs.

Weakest on an overall strong and balanced team, meaning they've always had pretty decent receivers. Their secondary and running game are also just as arguable for the designation, but it's not really important because they've all been productive. I really think their secondary has been worse than their receivers lately, but I also remember that it seems like every year draftniks wanted the Pats to draft a no. 1 wideout and it never happens, and I suspect that contributes to the perception that they lack talent at the position.

Basically, I think you see Bill Belichick wanting to have certain skillsets in his receiving corps and seeks the ones that fit what he likes to do, so maybe his players aren't as valuable to someone else as they are to him. His receivers have to do their jobs in order to be a league-leading passing offense, but call it a weakness if you like, I guess. I may not like Wes Welker as an All-Pro pick, but he's certainly not one of his team's weak points, and while aside from Randy Moss most of the Pats other receivers have been rather anonymous we'd never be talking about Tom Brady there hadn't been receivers who could get open and make clutch catches in critical moments.

[JordanTaber]

Tom Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, and not one of them came when Wes Welker was on the team.

That has nothing to do with why Welker isn't even a Top 30 current NFL receiver...it's just to discredit the whole, "Tom Brady didn't get to be one of the greatest and a 1st ballot HOFer without throwing to somebody" argument.

There was a time when people were hyping up David Givens and Deion Branch on the free agent market. The teams who bought into it (Titans and Seahawks) got burned.

Now...Current Receivers Better than Welker (not in a particular order):

1. Calvin Johnson
2. Andre Johnson
3. Julio Jones
4. Roddy White
5. Larry Fitzgerald
6. Steve Smith
7. Miles Austin
8. Dez Bryant
9. Mike Wallace
10. Vincent Jackson
11. Brandon Marshall
12. Michael Crabtree
13. Stevie Johnson
14. Demaryius Thomas
15. Hakeem Nicks
16. Victor Cruz
17. DeSean Jackson
18. A.J. Green
19. Reggie Wayne
20. Pierre Garcon
21. Santana Moss
22. Anquan Boldin
23. Torrey Smith
24. Randy Moss (I don't care what anyone says, he can still do it if given half a chance)
25. Percy Harvin
26. Sidney Rice
27. Kenny Britt
28. Greg Jennings
29. Jordy Nelson
30. Randall Cobb
31. Marques Colston
32. Dwayne Bowe
33. Brandon Lloyd
34. Santonio Holmes
35. Jeremy Maclin

Probably missing some others as well. I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt over Amendola.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by JordanTaber

Tom Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, and not one of them came when Wes Welker was on the team.

Crappy argument is crappy. That's the same as me saying:

The 49ers won 5 SBs without their current defense. Thus, their defense stinks. It's just plain dumb.

[JordanTaber]

Originally Posted by Razor

Crappy argument is crappy. That's the same as me saying:

The 49ers won 5 SBs without their current defense. Thus, their defense stinks. It's just plain dumb.

And that's equivalent to me not being able to comprehend very basic English.

I think it was somewhere, like, here:

That has nothing to do with why Welker isn't even a Top 30 current NFL receiver...it's just to discredit the whole, "Tom Brady didn't get to be one of the greatest and a 1st ballot HOFer without throwing to somebody" argument.

Did I not spell it out for you that I was NOT making that argument? Was this somehow unclear? Unbelievable. You should never have been allowed to pass 4th grade.