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Old 02-28-2013, 06:28 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Default Jonathan Cooper is an elite prospect.

A couple of months ago I started thinking that Cooper > Warmack as a G prospect, which I made known on multiple boards. There's power to his game, but that is secondary to the athleticism and intelligence. He does freakish, athletic things on tape that, maybe due to a lack of experience, I just have no seen out of a G prospect in recent memory (including the "best since Hutchinson" candidates like DeCastro and Iupati).

There's other aspects I enjoy about Cooper that are more subtle maybe:

- Comes from a program that is and has been producing some really quality to high end athletes for the NFL in very recent years (basically, they have a hot hand). Hakeem Nicks, Marvin Austin before he messed up and slipped out of the first, Quinton Coples, Gio Bernard, TJ Yates (for a clear non-first round QB he's extremely likable), Gio Bernard, Zac Brown, Cam Thomas, Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter, and even Greg Little are all players with quality or better upside in the NFL from within the past not even 5 years.

- He's an Academic All American and a high character/makeup player. His post-combine interviews outline his ability to come up with and achieve goals (he never threw up 35 reps until combine according to him) and self assess himself objectively (wanted to run a 4.9, ran a 5.11).

- He's a highly intelligent player on the field. This FO piece outlines one of my favorite individual plays/actions from any OL prospect in recent memory - his downfield blocking for Gio Bernard on a screen against Duke:

Quote:
Cooper is No. 64, bringing up the rear of the three linemen working to the right flat on this screen pass to fellow top prospect Giovanni Bernard. As the play progresses, Cooper demonstrates a skill beyond that of athleticism -Ė selectivity.

Cooper diagnoses the first opportunity downfield and shows the restraint not to bite. The guard can tell that the defender (No. 38) has no angle to his running back.

This may not be a fantastic physical feat, but itís a great display of subtlety. Cooper doesnít get a good block downfield, but his ability to process information and use that in the scope of his athleticism is among the reasons why he has top-shelf potential.
http://www.footballo....onathan-cooper

That FO piece covers alot of what there is to like about Cooper on the field. He's got the hands and hand strength to be a high end interior OL prospect. He's got the on field intelligence to diagnose and the athletic ability to translate what he diagnoses on the field into a positive action and result. He's as fundamentally sound and his game as technique driven as it is driven by his athleticism - which speaks both to his coaches' ability and then his ability to translate coaching. His body is projectable - rare in the NFL draft and often only seen in the most physically gifted young talents - and as the FO piece points out there is a strong belief that he can get stronger in his lower body (specifically the thighs) and his core. His movements on the field are with purpose, explosiveness, and efficiency - three qualities to love in any player.

Most definitely I would take Cooper over Warmack. The way I see it he was the best player on UNC's offense even over Bernard, the more obvious candidate because he gets the ball. They do things with Cooper that you just do not see with other Gs and he makes it happen. That's a truly elite prospect to me and in a draft that lacks truly elite prospects I have zero qualms about this guy being the pick.

So basically, 6 weeks before the draft I'm on the Mingo or Cooper train at 9 with Cooper being the safer option. That's IF the FO is not into Geno Smith, who I lean towards buying as a quality QB prospect who can give this team the average, efficient QB production the roster has been dying for since '08.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
A couple of months ago I started thinking that Cooper > Warmack as a G prospect, which I made known on multiple boards. There's power to his game, but that is secondary to the athleticism and intelligence. He does freakish, athletic things on tape that, maybe due to a lack of experience, I just have no seen out of a G prospect in recent memory (including the "best since Hutchinson" candidates like DeCastro and Iupati).

There's other aspects I enjoy about Cooper that are more subtle maybe:

- Comes from a program that is and has been producing some really quality to high end athletes for the NFL in very recent years (basically, they have a hot hand). Hakeem Nicks, Marvin Austin before he messed up and slipped out of the first, Quinton Coples, Gio Bernard, TJ Yates (for a clear non-first round QB he's extremely likable), Gio Bernard, Zac Brown, Cam Thomas, Robert Quinn, Bruce Carter, and even Greg Little are all players with quality or better upside in the NFL from within the past not even 5 years.

- He's an Academic All American and a high character/makeup player. His post-combine interviews outline his ability to come up with and achieve goals (he never threw up 35 reps until combine according to him) and self assess himself objectively (wanted to run a 4.9, ran a 5.11).

- He's a highly intelligent player on the field. This FO piece outlines one of my favorite individual plays/actions from any OL prospect in recent memory - his downfield blocking for Gio Bernard on a screen against Duke:



http://www.footballo....onathan-cooper

That FO piece covers alot of what there is to like about Cooper on the field. He's got the hands and hand strength to be a high end interior OL prospect. He's got the on field intelligence to diagnose and the athletic ability to translate what he diagnoses on the field into a positive action and result. He's as fundamentally sound and his game as technique driven as it is driven by his athleticism - which speaks both to his coaches' ability and then his ability to translate coaching. His body is projectable - rare in the NFL draft and often only seen in the most physically gifted young talents - and as the FO piece points out there is a strong belief that he can get stronger in his lower body (specifically the thighs) and his core. His movements on the field are with purpose, explosiveness, and efficiency - three qualities to love in any player.

Most definitely I would take Cooper over Warmack. The way I see it he was the best player on UNC's offense even over Bernard, the more obvious candidate because he gets the ball. They do things with Cooper that you just do not see with other Gs and he makes it happen. That's a truly elite prospect to me and in a draft that lacks truly elite prospects I have zero qualms about this guy being the pick.

So basically, 6 weeks before the draft I'm on the Mingo or Cooper train at 9 with Cooper being the safer option. That's IF the FO is not into Geno Smith, who I lean towards buying as a quality QB prospect who can give this team the average, efficient QB production the roster has been dying for since '08.
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:54 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.
I prefer the bigger and better athlete. Warmack is a less versatile for me.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.
perfect description.

you cant go wrong with either...both are legitimately awesome players
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.
This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.
personally i was concerned about coopers weight the exact same way i was leery about tyron smith playing LT at 285, then he comes in and maintains 315ish and my concerns are gone. Cooper coming in at 311 has left me with zero questions...he could be a start LG on any team, and my bet is he will be

I dont think teo was a slam dunk top 10 prospect, but i do think hes going to be a damn good pro. He was trying to put the team on his back in the NC and failed miserably, but in the pros hes gonna learn he just has to play MLB, i do hink hes better than Mcclain was coming out. Teo is to me what would happen if brandon spikes and sean lee made an asian looking MLB baby together, which isnt anything to just scoff at as a NFL caliber player goes, i wish him the best i think hes a good player...he wasnt a heisman finalist for nothing. Warmack is a legit monster though. I would take him or cooper in a heartbeat to play LG for the steelers. Adams, Cooper/Warmack, Pouncey, Decastro, Gilbert is just sex on turf when it comes to a young offensive line
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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I think both have top 10 talent but only Warmack has a real shot of getting picked there. Warmack simply dominates every opponent he faces and open holes that made Lacy's life pretty easy. For a team that wants to run between the tackles, Warmack is you man, if a team prefers a ZBS system then Cooper might be more effective.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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personally i was concerned about coopers weight the exact same way i was leery about tyron smith playing LT at 285, then he comes in and maintains 315ish and my concerns are gone. Cooper coming in at 311 has left me with zero questions...he could be a start LG on any team, and my bet is he will be

I dont think teo was a slam dunk top 10 prospect, but i do think hes going to be a damn good pro. He was trying to put the team on his back in the NC and failed miserably, but in the pros hes gonna learn he just has to play MLB, i do hink hes better than Mcclain was coming out. Teo is to me what would happen if brandon spikes and sean lee made an asian looking MLB baby together, which isnt anything to just scoff at as a NFL caliber player goes, i wish him the best i think hes a good player...he wasnt a heisman finalist for nothing. Warmack is a legit monster though. I would take him or cooper in a heartbeat to play LG for the steelers. Adams, Cooper/Warmack, Pouncey, Decastro, Gilbert is just sex on turf when it comes to a young offensive line
Anything with Marcus Gilbert in it is the furthest thing from sex that I can think ok...
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Anything with Marcus Gilbert in it is the furthest thing from sex that I can think ok...
lol gilbert isnt a bad player, hes had a knack for injuring other olinemen but he has a future at RT for us i think
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.

Let's put it this way, when I watched UNC games this year, Cooper wasn't a guy that consistently jumped off the screen at me. You couldn't watch an Alabama game with noticing the best player on the field was consistently #65 from Alabama. Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated and wore down defensive lineman from the best conference in college football this year and for the last couple years. The level of competition isn't even close between the two.

By all accounts, Manti Te'o was regarded as a Top 10 pick before the NC game, possibly even top 5. Hell, Mel Kiper said KC should take him at #1! And who single-handedly dropped Te'o out of the top 15 picks? It was Mr. Chance Warmack. He physically dominated Te'o all game long. And he did it all year long against the greatest quality opponents that CFB has to offer.

I get the versatility aspect of Cooper's game, and I see that the guy has some rare movement skills for a guy that size. He is a special player in his own right. But Chance Warmack, pound for pound, is the best football player in this entire draft. I've been saying it for months, and I'm sticking by it. He legitimately deserves to be considered in the top 5 picks in this draft. When can you ever say that about a TRUE offensive guard?

That is all.
You just went HAM! on Cooper in defense of Warmack.

Definitely agree on Warmack being the one I'd rather have on the Bills if we needed OG, but Cooper would be a nice consolation prize.

Cooper has great versatility and deserves a 1st rnd grade but not until Warmack is off the board. He really does not jump off the screen when you watch him play, which isn't a bad thing because the less you hear an O'linemens name probably the better kind of like with CB's. You watch Warmack on tape, you notice him right away on the field.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:48 AM    (permalink
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This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.
.
Man get out of here with this crap, I hate these types of arguments. There were a TON of people who felt Cooper>Warmack before the combines and as long as you aren't blind in one or both eyes it was clearly obvious that he has insane athleticism, in fact we had been talking for months that depending on the scheme(power vs zone) that Cooper would be the better pick.


And now you have to have watched more then 4-5 games to talk about a prospect? Really? If you want that type of analysis you should go to the combines and sit down with the assistant coaches.


Cooper moves in space like something I've never seen before, the way he seals off his block, and gets to the next level is almost uncanny, there are maybe of handful of Guards in the league now you could say the same about. He doesn't have the brute force that Warmack does but that isn't the only thing that goes into playing Guard and evidenced by his 35 reps on the bench I'd say his 'lack of power' is probably over stated.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:02 AM    (permalink
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Man get out of here with this crap, I hate these types of arguments. There were a TON of people who felt Cooper>Warmack before the combines and as long as you aren't blind in one or both eyes it was clearly obvious that he has insane athleticism, in fact we had been talking for months that depending on the scheme(power vs zone) that Cooper would be the better pick.


And now you have to have watched more then 4-5 games to talk about a prospect? Really? If you want that type of analysis you should go to the combines and sit down with the assistant coaches.


Cooper moves in space like something I've never seen before, the way he seals off his block, and gets to the next level is almost uncanny, there are maybe of handful of Guards in the league now you could say the same about. He doesn't have the brute force that Warmack does but that isn't the only thing that goes into playing Guard and evidenced by his 35 reps on the bench I'd say his 'lack of power' is probably over stated.
I haven't seen anyone say he lacks power.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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I haven't seen anyone say he lacks power.
Before the combines that was the knock on him that he wasn't as strong as Warmack and then people assumed because he was so athletic that he wasn't a really powerful in the box type of Guard. I'd also be willing to bet if most people guessed his reps they wouldn't have said 35, especially with the weight loss which is even more impressive.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
I love Cooper, but Warmack is better. Cooper blocks extremely well. Warmack puts OLmen in wheel chairs and pushes them off of fishing piers.
Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack
No son, he doesn't. Not even the OP is making that argument.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:39 PM    (permalink
JT Jag
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Different strokes for different folks. Cooper would probably do better than Warmack in a zone blocking scheme. Warmack will do better than Cooper in a drive blocking scheme. Cooper has better theoretical athletic upside but that doesn't always translate: Warmack has the skill and experience to produce right now, and that sort of thing is often more important with lineman than with other positions.
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Warmack is not a road grader. Copper has better strength at the point of attack
This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted in these forums. I mean, unless you're trolling, which may well be possible. Someone who holds this opinion either is screwing around or has never seen an Alabama game in the last three years.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted in these forums. I mean, unless you're trolling, which may well be possible. Someone who holds this opinion either is screwing around or has never seen an Alabama game in the last three years.
http://youtu.be/kYVkEOzZkEM

Find me a snap in that game where Warmack dominates a LSU Dlineman in the run game...you won't. He is remarkable in pass protection throughout the game and he gets to the second level very quickly. He uses levarge to wash lineman out of gaps, sometimes he misses on down blocks and has to cut Dlineman. Hes an effective run blocker but hes not a road grader by any means. He can post Dlineman and give the RB a lane but I haven't seen Warmack whip a Dlineman out of a gap like I've seen Cooper do. People are comparing him to Steve Hutchinson but I think a more realistic comparison would be Ben Grubbs.

If you want to talk football I'm down but save the condescending stuff. Warmack had a good season and then Mayock boosted his stock even further. People are making assumptions about this kid
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SOnMyChest View Post
http://youtu.be/kYVkEOzZkEM

Find me a snap in that game where Warmack dominates a LSU Dlineman in the run game...you won't. He is remarkable in pass protection throughout the game and he gets to the second level very quickly. He uses levarge to wash lineman out of gaps, sometimes he misses on down blocks and has to cut Dlineman. Hes an effective run blocker but hes not a road grader by any means. He can post Dlineman and give the RB a lane but I haven't seen Warmack whip a Dlineman out of a gap like I've seen Cooper do. People are comparing him to Steve Hutchinson but I think a more realistic comparison would be Ben Grubbs.

If you want to talk football I'm down but save the condescending stuff. Warmack had a good season and then Mayock boosted his stock even further. People are making assumptions about this kid
NFL.com posted their pre season ratings awhile back and listed Warmack as the #1 prospect in this years draft ahead of Joeckel who was #2.

That is what is generating all the Warmack talk, not just what Mayock said. Now, perhaps, we are all forgetting that Alabama had one of the greatest OL's of all time and perhaps all will be drafted in rounds 1/2 and just maybe, Warmack had a lot of help opening up running lanes for Lacy, but right now, you cannot deny that Lacy had immense holes to run through and that Warmack played a huge part in that.

Cooper is now getting the credit he deserves and is getting a lot of top 10 talk, so he is obviously no slouch either, I think it is one of those situations where their futures as pros will decide who is the best just like the pro game will decide who in the end, is the best LT in this year's draft.

We are just going to have to wait for those results, but for now, I think Warmack will be picked slightly higher than Cooper.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SOnMyChest View Post
http://youtu.be/kYVkEOzZkEM

Find me a snap in that game where Warmack dominates a LSU Dlineman in the run game...you won't. He is remarkable in pass protection throughout the game and he gets to the second level very quickly. He uses levarge to wash lineman out of gaps, sometimes he misses on down blocks and has to cut Dlineman. Hes an effective run blocker but hes not a road grader by any means. He can post Dlineman and give the RB a lane but I haven't seen Warmack whip a Dlineman out of a gap like I've seen Cooper do. People are comparing him to Steve Hutchinson but I think a more realistic comparison would be Ben Grubbs.

If you want to talk football I'm down but save the condescending stuff. Warmack had a good season and then Mayock boosted his stock even further. People are making assumptions about this kid
Thank you for posting this video, it's actually made me appreciate Warmack even more. He does an outstanding job in this game.

I'd like to challenge you with a counter: Find me instances in this LSU game where the man Warmack is assigned to is primarily responsible for ending a play. By tackle, pass deflection, forcing the ballcarrier out of bounds, anything.

I only found a single pass deflection.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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It would be amazing if the Rams drafted both of them. So cool. Would just love to see them play together.... just not agaisnt the Bucs.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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I totally agree. Most athletic interior lineman I've ever seen.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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I totally agree. Most athletic interior lineman I've ever seen.
I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
And Mike ;)
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
Hopefully he can use that athleticism better than Maurkice does. If I take a first round interior lineman, I'm not at all happy if I get Maurkice rather than Mike.
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Hopefully he can use that athleticism better than Maurkice does. If I take a first round interior lineman, I'm not at all happy if I get Maurkice rather than Mike.
maurkice does a fine job, i do think hes going to be better in the new more ZBS oriented system.

no doubt hed be better at guard though
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