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Old 01-07-2007, 09:50 PM    (permalink
umphrey
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Everyone says they should have taken VY now that he's tearing it up in TN...

Where are all the people who were saying he was a bust who would never learn an NFL scheme 1 year ago? Or criticized his "right arm throwing motion"?

Add that to the fact that the Texans already have Carr who is mediocre and still young...people would have been taking all kinds of shots at the Texans if they had taken VY.
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Old 01-07-2007, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush. He was the Texans pick before they got butt hurt and took Williams instead. Someone on the first page said Bush wouldn't fit in the ZBS? Are you freaking kidding me??
The ZBS requires patience, the ability to break arm tackles, and for the runner to not dance. None of those are qualities Reggie Bush has.
All EASILY teachable. Patience is an easy maturing process that every RB will encounter. I don't see what you're trying to say about breaking arm tackles.... in ZBS you hit the hole once it opens up then bolt and do your thing once you hit the second level. That's it. It's pretty simple and I think bush would put up god like numbers if he's put in a good ZBS system.

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I hate when people use that argument, because if all 3 players turn out great, NOBODY will mention it. It all started when Sam Bowie went before MJ. I got a trivia question for some people. Who was taken BEFORE Sam Bowie? I notice nobody talks about him going before MJ because he actually turned out to be a HOFer.
Olaujuan being a HOFer definitely softens the blow, but please don't tell me you'd rather have him over MJ.
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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More than anything I think the Texans needed a face of the franchise type player that will energize the fans in Houston and give them hope. Right now the team doesn't have a real personality and you have to question where they are going as a franchise.

The fact is that both Bush and Young have had a profound impact on the field for their respective teams. That's not to say that Williams has been bad, but realistically he's been the 3rd best rookie DE, behind Mark Anderson and Tamba Hali, and a guy like Kiwanuka hasn't been bad either.

Now let's say that each of the three players in question, Bush, Williams and Young reach their full potential, which players are going to be more condusive to winning football games? I think a franchise RB or QB ultimately wins more games for you than a franchise defensive end. And to this point the two guys that Houston didn't take have been flat out better than the guy they took. I've got nothing against taking a defensive approach in the draft, but with the #1 overall pick, when you've got your choice of any player on the board? It's just sort of unconventional, not to mention it alienates your fans and makes your organization look cheap for being scared of negotiating with the guy or guys who were widely viewed as the best players available. Especially when you've taken a down lineman with your first rounder they year prior.
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Old 01-07-2007, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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I too believe Mario Williams was the right pick. You win games in the trenches, not in the backfield. Almost all successful teams have a great OL, a great DL, or both. You can win without a franchise running back (see the Patriots of 2001 or the Buccaneers of 2002) and you can win without a franchise QB (see the Ravens of 2000 or the Buccaneers of 2002). But rarely can you win without a good OL and DL. Mario Williams was, and still is the second best DE prospect of the last 5-10 years. And while he hasn't produced up to this point like Young and Bush have, it doesn't mean he can't become a better player.

I believe that despite having better years, both Bush and Young's rookie seasons were overhyped. They both had their moments, but both have a long way to go. In my mind neither has proven to me that the Texans made a mistake in drafting Mario Williams. Bush has shown the ability to do special things with the ball in his hands, but he's been very sporadic this year. And, like it was mentioned numerous times, he was not a good fit for the ZBS at all. I hate to beat the same thing to death, but the prototypical RB for the ZBS is patient, with great vision, and the ability to make one cut and go. Bush has not shown any indication of those qualities as runner.

Vince Young on the otherhand, I believe gets too much credit for the Titans success. Now, I will admit he has exceeded mine as well as most of our expectations, but he is far from a sure thing. Watching the Titans games that I did this year, it seems to me that Titans' success has more to do with the teams' rallying around the young (no pun intended) rookie QB than it did just based on Young's peformance. I mean, he did have the second worst passer rating in the entire league and barely completed 50% of his passes. I'm really not sure the Texans would've had the same success as the Titans did, had they drafted Young.

But all three rookies have shown immense potential to go along with their question marks. But I still think that Mario was the correct pick. He plays [arguably] the most important position of the three and filled the biggest need at the time. You also have to remember that David Carr just received a contract extension and RB are not a high priority for a team running a ZBS. And finally, like it was pointed out, the Texans didn't even put much thought into taking Bush or Young. There were heavy rumors that their interest in Bush was a smokescreen and they never had any intention of taking him. And as for Young, they stopped considering him for their pick at least a month before the draft.
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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I voted for Mario and it isn't even close in my mind. If Houston couldn't take Mario, they should have taken D'Brick.

Remember, Mario Williams was the leagues youngest starter last year and still only 21 years old. He is close to two years younger than Gaines Adams and Quinton Moses who are entering the draft this year.

Everybody knew Mario was going to be raw. Throw in his foot problems and you shouldn't have been expecting an all-pro rookie season.
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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yall are forgetting Rbs are a dime a dozen if Kubiak can implement his system correctly. Also Bush wasn't and won't be the best RB in that class MJD,Addai and Maroney will all be better nfl runners than him. And all of those guys would fit better in the zone blocking system than Bush would.
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Old 01-09-2007, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.
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Old 01-09-2007, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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I don't know if this was already mentioned, but when vince young beat the texans, the whole houston stadium was cheering, and then vince young jumped into the crowd and everyone was patting him on the back etc.
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Old 01-09-2007, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ks_perfection
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.
In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ks_perfection
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.
In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.
Well said!
As good as Julius Peppers is, and Jason Taylor, Dwight Freeney are, how many Super Bowls have the THREE WON COMBINED? How many for BRUCE SMITH or Reggie White?
Just ONE, REggie, when he went to FAVRE's PACKERS.

Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.
No THEY did make a mistake. But I guess it will take a few years to convince some people.... or prove me wrong. So far, I think Tennessee and New Orleans are happy the Texans chose Mario.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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Make no mistake, they made the right call by selecting Maio Williams.
No THEY did make a mistake. But I guess it will take a few years to convince some people.... or prove me wrong. So far, I think Tennessee and New Orleans are happy the Texans chose Mario.
But i'm sure the texans front office is fine with Mario, make a topic about this in three years or so.
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Old 01-09-2007, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ks_perfection
I forget where I heard it but someone laid out a higharchy of positions when comparing Mario to Bush. First naturally was QB, second a WR, than DE, CB, LT and than a RB.

The reality is these days good RBs are everywhere, good DE aren't. Take Jon Abraham for example. If there was an injury prone great running back no way a team would trade a 1st rounder for him.
In certain schemes, e.g. a Tampa 2 style defense I can see where a DE is key. But having a great DE isn't the only way you can create pressure on the QB. And I'll agree that there are many token 1000-1200 yard running backs in the NFL, but there aren't alot of elite, MVP candidate 1600+ rushers.

...Which is something Reggie hasn't come close to proving he can.

Only one position ranks above DE, and that's QB. They thought they had their QB. Also, Vince, despite what everyone may be saying, hasn't proven he's a great QB yet. He got lucky a few times, and after a year of watching film on him, defenses will be ready, if he doesn't improve. Keep in mind, he had a very low passer rating(2nd lowest, I heard someone say) 51.7% completions, and a TD:INT ratio of less than one. He still needs to become a better passer. None of the top 3 picks have really proven anything yet, even though VY won OROY. They've all had struggles.


Keep in mind, I am a BIG VY fan and absolutely LOVE what he could become. But he's not there yet, and there is no guarantee he ever will.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.

I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.
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Old 01-09-2007, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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I think that everyone can agree that defense wins championships. I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live. For as long as the Ravens have been a dominant defense, have they had a truly dominant defensive end? Pryce or Suggs are very good but they fit into a scheme where versatility is key and all of the players in the front seven and secondary are able to make plays. The Bears seem to find pass rushers very easily in the draft and in free agency. I think the value in a dominant defensive lineman is overstated and I know it's not a perfect comparison but the Courtney Brown debacle should serve as some proof that it's not always a good idea to draft them with the first pick.

Just objectively looking at Houston's situation, their defense did improve slightly, but is still not near where they need to be even though they added two impact rookies. Their main problem is scoring points. Besides Andre Johnson they have no impact playmakers on offense. They need touchdown makers - Bush and Young are that and they will be scorers for a long time in my opinion. Houston's not winning anything as long as they are one of the weakest offensive teams in the league. I realize that they're trying to replicate the Bronco's style offense but it's important to realize that Shanahan is the mastermind behind it and it will be hard for Kubiak to achieve that type of success without good talent. Frankly they don't have that talent right now, not at RB, not at QB, not on the offensive line. They have one franchise reciever who is going to waste, and that is all.
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.

I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.
Yea, the Rams had a good D that year, someone was throwing around their D stats, and they surprised me.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.
i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
Even if you could make Mario into Peppers, HOW FAR IS DAVID CARR gonna drive that team?

How many more years?
Vince Young was meant to go to the Texans, and someone there ruined it. I think he was fired or forced out after that draft too.... something doesn't smell right about that whole deal to me.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by soybean
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
Anytime you can get a special offensive skill player, you gotta take them. Gotta. Vince and Reggie are SPECIAL, as they proved in college for 2 years and showed right away this season in the NFL. DIFFERENCE MAKERS.
Everyone agrees that defenses wins championships. But now you think that it's inexcusable to pass up a slot receiver/3rd down back? Sorry but that doesn't make sense.
except the 2000 rams. That's what i think the colts are trying to running their game plan off of.

I think the Rams had a top 5 defense that year.
Um yea, St. Louis had a top 10 defense that year and they got a ton of takeaways as well (a defense coached by Lovie Smith). 8)
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.
i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.
Fair enough mr moderator. Reggie White was the greatest ever.

Anyway, that all being said; who was better ON THE FIELD then as a player in college?
Reggie Bush, Vince Young, or Mario Williams? Mario was 4th in voting for ACC defensive player of the year. FOURTH. In his CONFERENCE. This is another CLASSIC case of a GM/Scout overrating size and speed in a testing facility compared to actual PERFORMANCE ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD.... you can have POTENTIAL, give me PERFORMANCE.
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Old 01-09-2007, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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do you mean like bush's running performance? or vince young's astounding passing numbers at the pro level?

or again, maybe you believe ty detmer was the best quarterback prospect ever? or that jay cutler shouldn't have been drafted?

your argument is ridiculous. by your reasoning, all-americans and all conference teams should be drafted before anyone else, regardless of any on field performance. do you actually believe troy smith should be selected first overall? i mean, he was the BEST college football player in the nation.
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
I just want to point out though, that a defense wins a championship by playing as a collective unit. One defensive player does not make a defense, it's about finding a group of players to fit your scheme. If a defensive end was the most important position on the field, then Deacon Jones would be considered the greatest football player to ever live.
i'm sure you see how this could easily be swapped out with offense. great quarterbacks don't guarantee championships. ask marino. great running backs definitely don't. ask payton why he finally won one. or sayers why he didn't. or jim brown for that matter. or, if you'd like to get current, ask LT where his is.

bottom line, i don't buy for one second that anyone can succesfully make the argument that DE is a less important position than, say, RB or that it should necessarily be drafted any lower.
But most would agree QB is a more important position. And I would rather have Reggie Bush on my team than Mario Williams, that's just the way I feel about the two guys after watching them in college. I just think Bush is flat out better and would have helped Houston win more this year and in the future than Williams can. I'm not arguing that offense is more important than defense. It's not.
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