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Old 06-28-2008, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Not as bad of a list as I was expecting it to be. Only a few things I don't agree with. Welker, Tatupu, and Sanders are overrated on this list while Urlacher and Jared Allen are definately underrated.

Not a bad job overall tho.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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The Cowboys snubs (Romo, Newman, Witten) are unwarranted. I am willing to put Romo in the same class as Palmer and Roethlisberger and the same goes with Newman and Witten with many of the players of the same position ranked ahead of them. Might be favorites involved here hmm.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Happy to see four vikings in the top 25 of the 50.
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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How come Aaron Kampman doesnt get the same love as Jared Allen?

Kampman (Last 3 years): 34 Sacks: 47 Games
Allen (Last 3 years): 34 Sacks; 46 Games

Also I believe Kampman plays the run better, but im not entirely sure how good Allen is in that department. I think Allen is a bit better, but I dont think he's 32 spots better. Granted Kampman has had a better supporting cast.

I dont know if one is overated or underated.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Allen was solid against the run but our defense, as a whole, was bad.

Like you said, Allen did the same without the supporting cast, but Allen WAS our defense for a few years. The Packer D has many outstanding players where we had maybe two or three.

That being said, I do not think JA is THAT much better than Kampman, and surely not 32 spots better. I think Kampman is a bit low BECAUSE of the great defense around him. This list really undervalues him.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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what i was talking about with Peterson and his high school was the whole debacle where he wanted to declare for the NFL after high school, and he wasnt allowed. He was NFL ready, or at least some thought he was, straight out of high school. Just look wat he did his freshman year in college.

Its all fine and dandy to say andre johnson, steven jackson, or drew brees are better players then adrian peterson, but based upon last season, they arent. And like I said, i believe hes baseing his opinion on the players current status, not their pedigree. Who cares if they put up good numbers 3 seasons ago? 3 seasons ago, ray lewis was a dominant interior force, but he isnt on this list. This is a what have you done for me lately league, and lately Adrian Peterson right now is a better player then the guys you listed.
three years ago ? for example : how many 4000 y seasons does brees need , to get a little love ?

again : iam not a homer and i couldnīt care less about these lists , but if peterson ( who i think very high off) falls on his face next year , the whole ranking is more than a farce.

@jonathanvilma :

iam not saying he isnt an nfl top player RIGHT NOW , but i just donīt know what was the writers criteria , if it was stats or career peterson is too high. if its based on potential , he is right in the mix ( again : no bashing , i think he will be a new prototype of RBs ).

at the very last , he plays one of the easiest position to success on nfl level.


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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Thats funny how you will hold that against Peterson, yet its like you forgot how Drew Brees started off his career in San Diego...So just a few good seasons from him means he should be ranked higher?

i donīt get what you want to say . but i wouldnīt have ranked brees in the top 50 after his first two years ....

maybe on potential , but that is kinda crap-shooting
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by A Perfect Score View Post
Its all fine and dandy to say andre johnson, steven jackson, or drew brees are better players then adrian peterson, but based upon last season, they arent. And like I said, i believe hes baseing his opinion on the players current status, not their pedigree. Who cares if they put up good numbers 3 seasons ago? 3 seasons ago, ray lewis was a dominant interior force, but he isnt on this list. This is a what have you done for me lately league, and lately Adrian Peterson right now is a better player then the guys you listed.
Well the problem is, Drew Brees did really well last year. Heres the thing, Drew Brees and Carson Palmer have scary similar stats - over the last 3 years, both have around 1,100 completions - 1650 attempts, 80 TDs and 45 INTs and around 13,000 yards.

However, in 07 Drew Brees had more TD's, Less INT's and a higher completion percentage than Carson and yet Carson is ranked higher on this list. The biggest problem is you want to say that Adrian Peterson deserves to be on here for 1 year, then Drew Brees does too and Carson doesn't (or at least he shouldn't be so high).

Now, the beauty of a list like this is 1) if he makes the list based purely on stats, and not judging things like how the player performs in pressure, their upside etc. then he would just be copying and pasting which would be boring. and 2) when we review his list, if we judge by anything other than stats it will turn into a homer fest :) oh the irony!!!
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Grant had a similar YPG (also including the two playoff games where he had about 230 in 2 games) as Adrian Peterson.
Just sayin
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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Well the problem is, Drew Brees did really well last year. Heres the thing, Drew Brees and Carson Palmer have scary similar stats - over the last 3 years, both have around 1,100 completions - 1650 attempts, 80 TDs and 45 INTs and around 13,000 yards.

However, in 07 Drew Brees had more TD's, Less INT's and a higher completion percentage than Carson and yet Carson is ranked higher on this list. The biggest problem is you want to say that Adrian Peterson deserves to be on here for 1 year, then Drew Brees does too and Carson doesn't (or at least he shouldn't be so high).

Now, the beauty of a list like this is 1) if he makes the list based purely on stats, and not judging things like how the player performs in pressure, their upside etc. then he would just be copying and pasting which would be boring. and 2) when we review his list, if we judge by anything other than stats it will turn into a homer fest :) oh the irony!!!
your 100% correct, and like i said before, this is all speculation as to the specifications that the writer is making the list under. You may be correct in saying that Brees had a better year then Carson last year, however I dont think anyone on this board would be crazy enough to argue Brees has more potential then Carson, so I think that makes it painfully obvious that the writer is factoring age, potential, and most likely his own bias into his selections. Its a worthless tidbit of writing in a slow time of year, so obviously people will debate it, but im sure that the rest of us could make comparable lists that would be just as accurate as this one
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Grant had a similar YPG (also including the two playoff games where he had about 230 in 2 games) as Adrian Peterson.
Just sayin
Adrian Peterson also averaged .5 more YPC sharing time with another very capable RB, not playing in a ZBS, and without the benefit of Brett Favre and a stellar recieving core.

Just saying :P


in all honesty, Grant has skills, but no where near the skills Peterson has. I hate when people make that argument.
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Adrian Peterson also averaged .5 more YPC sharing time with another very capable RB, not playing in a ZBS, and without the benefit of Brett Favre and a stellar recieving core.

Just saying :P


in all honesty, Grant has skills, but no where near the skills Peterson has. I hate when people make that argument.
True that. I was making a big deal about it. I just read that people were talking about AD so i thought I would bring that up. Grant has no where near the talent and potential that AD has, but he should be a good/great RB this year and years to come.
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Ryan Grant had a similar YPG (also including the two playoff games where he had about 230 in 2 games) as Adrian Peterson.
Just sayin
The thing about stat arguments is every player is in a different situation. Some backs split carries with another guy who wears the defense down. Some backs play in more run friendly systems. Some backs have better supporting casts and lastly all backs have different skill sets. Although Adrian Peterson is freakishly close to being a complete back in the sense that he has strength and size, he's still not the strongest back nor the fastest back.

Stats are a nice way of measuring players, and its fun posting in the argument threads about which player is better etc (believe me, I love researching and comparing two players), but in the end winning is what counts, no matter how your stats look @ the end.

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Old 06-28-2008, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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The thing about stat arguments is every player is in a different situation. Some backs split carries with another guy who wears the defense down. Some backs play in more run friendly systems. Some backs have better supporting casts and lastly all backs have different skill sets. Although Adrian Peterson is freakishly close to being a complete back in the sense that he has strength and size, he's still not the strongest back nor the fastest back.

Stats are a nice way of measuring players, and its fun posting in the argument threads about which player is better etc (believe me, I love researching and comparing two players), but in the end winning is what counts, no matter how your stats look @ the end.
haha good argument, but that wasnt my quote :P neko said that
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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Yah I accidently quoted you, then just copy and pasted and refilled the quote boxes and forget to remove your name :( sorry

I fixed it, move along people; nothing to see here.
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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haha good argument, but that wasnt my quote :P neko said that

Yeah that was weird
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Romo not being on the list is an absolute joke. He was 1000x better than Palmer last season, and considerably better the year before. Big Ben played terrifically last year, and certainly made a huge leap in terms of his actual production on the field.....and was about even with Tony for the year. For both of them to be not just on the list, but in the upper half while Romo isn't even included is a f***ing joke of immense proportions.

Not to make a personal crusade of my own player getting jobbed, because that's what every fan does, as this thread proves, but Romo is easily the best player not on the list, and is certainly a top 25, let alone top 50, player in this league. And for anyone with the idiotic "he choked in the playoffs blah blah blah" line of reasoning, look at the QBs ranked ahead of him. Palmer only played in the playoffs long enough to blow out the second most important ligament in his body, and Big Ben played the worst game of any winning QB in the history of the Super Bowl. Niether of them have lit the world on fire, and I won't even start into Peyton and some of the stinkers he's had. This is agenda driven, vindictive and petty journalism at its finest. Prisco is known for it, so I guess I'm the one to blame for even paying attention in the first place.



All that said, the following are MUCH too high:

- Mario Williams (#6)
His comment is laughable. "He might have been the league's best defensive player in the final 8 weeks of 2008". Rofl. He might have been the best defensive player in the league for half of a season, and yet I'm ranking him as the #2 defensive player in the NFL. Wow.

- Bob Sanders (#7)
Don't understand this, never will. Would any team in the leaugue trade the following 5 defensive players on the list straight up for bullet Bob (Ware, K Williams, Merriman, Allen, Haynesworth)? No, they would laugh at Polian and hang up the phone. Let alone guys like Osi, Kampman, Urlacher, Harris, Newman, or the dozens of other players on the list. I really like the guy, and its starting to piss me off how much people are overrating him, because it taints my ability to enjoy watching him play. Very good football player, but just can't hang with the other guys on the list.

- Shawne Merriman (#11)

Gotcha.

- Charles Woodson (#18)

Doesn't belong on the list. Its that simple. I think this is a case of elitist bull ****, with the writer trying to look smarter than the average fan by pegging an underrated guy as being among the best in the biz. Good player though.

- Lofa Tatupu (#40)

I have watched this guy, literally, his whole career. I have had him on my fantasy teams. I have gone out of my way to track his play on the field in an attempt to understand the hype. I have never seen him as a top LB in the league. I don't get it. There is literally no difference between him and guys like Mike Peterson and Antonio Pierce. Nice players. Good leaders. Maybe even Pro Bowl replacements on the right year. Top 50? Please.

- Kellen Winslow (#44)

I love his explosiveness, but he is nearly worthless as a blocker, and isn't good enough to make this list as a WR (which he basically is), so thanks but no thanks.

- Wes Welker (#48)

Lol. Everyone loves an underdog, I guess.

- Fred Taylor (#49)

Please tell me how many teams would rank him as the best RB on his own team?

- Devin Hester (#50)

Now this is just plain indefensible stupidity. Wow.

As for the players that were far too low and/or ommitted entirely:

- Brian Urlacher (#32)

How quickly we forget, although Prisco tries to pawn him off as being overrated a few years back, I don't buy it. For my money, one of the top 2 or 3 defensive players we have today. Having him this low is a disgrace.

- Tommie Harris (#36)

Imo, the best interior lineman in the league today.

- Osi Umenyiora (#42)

Don't know that its THAT low, but he belongs in the top 30-35 at least. While last years performance was overrated largely, as much of his sack production came in one game and he wasn't a regular in the opposing back field, he has played at the level of a top 5 or 6 pass rusher in the league for 3 straight years now.

- Aaron Kampman (#45)

Maybe the worst pick of the list. This guy belong, minimum, in the top 12 and I would likely have him at 8 or 9 overall. A dominant player who does everything well.

- Adrian Wilson (NR)

A significantly better player than Bob Sanders. Belongs in the top 50 without a doubt. Just a complete force of nature.

- Larry Johnson (NR)

Far better than Fred Taylor, who got a "career achievement" nomination, and at least as good as Jackson. A guy who was regularly ranked in the top 15 the last two years. One injury filled season later he isn't even top 50? O......k........

- Terence Newman (NR)

An annually underappreciated player. Is as good or better in coverage than any other player in the game, both in man and zone, and plays the run well to boot. If he improved his ball hawking skills he would be in the same league as some of the all time greats at the position.

- Romo

- Witten (NR)

Call this the Cowboys section if you like, but Witten just turned in one of the all time great seasons for a TE in NFL history. He was significantly better than Gates (slightly better as a receiver, leaps and bounds better as a blocker), which I had previously thought was impossible, and set numerous team and league records. As an all around player, there wasn't a better TE in the league last year.

- Kerry Rhodes (NR)

Might be a borderline guy, but I really like his game. I would take the combination of Wilson and Rhodes over Reed and Sanders any day of the week.



All told, these are just the glaring problems. There are many more small ones (Palmer a little too high, Gates a little too high, Hutchinson a little too high, Nnamdi, Brees, Westbrook a little too low) that I could go on and on about.

Really, the lasting impression when I read things like this is "How does this guy get paid for that crap?"
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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- Charles Woodson (#1

Doesn't belong on the list. Its that simple. I think this is a case of elitist bull ****, with the writer trying to look smarter than the average fan by pegging an underrated guy as being among the best in the biz. Good player though.
I still have mixed feelings about Al and Charles. Woodson is more of the play maker and often looks better, but he also typically plays against the #2 WR, who at times can be much worse than the #1 WR (Like in Carolina where they have Steve Smith and then some joke on the otherside) But Charles Woodson is more of the playmaker and often gets more attention because of it. I agree that guy was probably trying to sound smart.



WAAAAAAY Too many Dallas Cowboys were snubbed.
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Old 06-28-2008, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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I still have mixed feelings about Al and Charles. Woodson is more of the play maker and often looks better, but he also typically plays against the #2 WR, who at times can be much worse than the #1 WR (Like in Carolina where they have Steve Smith and then some joke on the otherside) But Charles Woodson is more of the playmaker and often gets more attention because of it. I agree that guy was probably trying to sound smart.
I noticed this same thing. He was way overrated when he played in Oakland. In fact, he was the Roy Williams of those years--you know, the guy who annually gets voted to the Pro Bowl while playing like crap. Now he has become, in some circles, a bit underrated with the resurgence he has experienced in GB. Still, a better player than Newman, Aso, Asante or Trufant? Its just a joke.

And that doesn't even list the non-CBs that he's ranked ahead of that make it even more ridiculous.


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WAAAAAAY Too many Dallas Cowboys were snubbed.
Not sure if this is sarcasm at how many of our guys I mentioned or if you genuinely believe that, but you'll notice that a lot of writers and media types try to "make 'em pay" when covering the Cowboys. Its like they resent how much attention is given to them, and how much they are required to write about them because of their popularity, so they either apply a different standard for judging their performance or they are simply overly-critical and/or vindictive in their assesments. I guess its the price to be paid for being the highest profile team in your sport, but it sure is enough to piss you off as a fan.
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Old 06-29-2008, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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Obviously players are going to get snubbed. Theres 50 people on the list, there is 32 teams in the league with 11 offensive starts, 11 defensive starters = 704 players. Obviously after you file through the crappy players you can narrow it down quite a bit but some people have their own opinions. More important all lists like this are vague - the top 50 players at what? the top 50 players who will perform next year? The top 50 players who performed in 07? The top 50 players who performed since their career started? The top 50 players sitting in a weight room right now preparing for next season?

Either way though, I think the "out to get you" attitude as far as cowboys fans are concerned might be outa hand but Witten and Newman deserve to be on the list and maybe Romo too :P
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Old 06-29-2008, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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All that said, the following are MUCH too high:


- Shawne Merriman (#11)

Gotcha.

- Charles Woodson (#18)

Doesn't belong on the list. Its that simple. I think this is a case of elitist bull ****, with the writer trying to look smarter than the average fan by pegging an underrated guy as being among the best in the biz. Good player though.


- Devin Hester (#50)

Now this is just plain indefensible stupidity. Wow.
good write up, but if I may, how is it plain stupidity to have Hester, arguably the most electric player in the entire LEAGUE, a guy who has a much bigger influence on the game then almost anyone else on the Bears team, one who consistantly forces opponents to give up mass amounts of field position (the most underrated advantage in football) or else risk giving up a touchdown? I mean, I dont even like the Bears and I would have Hester rated higher then #50. Hes the best kick returner EVER, how many other guys on that list can claim to be the best ever at their respective position? And dont even start that special teams is overrated, because it really is 1/3 of the game and has such a huge influence on the outcome. Hester belongs in the top 50, nothing stupid about it.

Charles Woodson belongs in the top 50 as well IMO, but for me it would be between 40-50 and not at 18. Hes an excellent player and still very underrated, one of the more physical corners in the league.

Shawn Merriman you say is too high at 11, but if anything he deserves to be higher. If you watch him play, hes absolutely dominant. scary dominant in fact. Just my opinion, I think his positioning on the list is justified
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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- Larry Johnson (NR)

Far better than Fred Taylor, who got a "career achievement" nomination, and at least as good as Jackson. A guy who was regularly ranked in the top 15 the last two years. One injury filled season later he isn't even top 50? O......k.......
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaamen.
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Old 06-29-2008, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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@jonathanvilma :

iam not saying he isnt an nfl top player RIGHT NOW , but i just donīt know what was the writers criteria , if it was stats or career peterson is too high. if its based on potential , he is right in the mix ( again : no bashing , i think he will be a new prototype of RBs ).

at the very last , he plays one of the easiest position to success on nfl level.
i'm assuming that the criteria is overall current ability and talent....which says more than just the stats, career production or potential because it should take all of them into account. You can't really hold it against someone for having only played one season, when by all accounts, that individual proved to be a extremely highly talented individual. Why do we need to break it down into 3 or more seperate categories, why not just take the big picture into account, which should be all means include all the aspects?


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Ryan Grant had a similar YPG (also including the two playoff games where he had about 230 in 2 games) as Adrian Peterson.
Just sayin
not sure what your looking for with this. It can't be a direct comparison of the two players because that would just look bad on your part. To be honest, i'm not sure what it is your saying because this has basis for an arguement at pretty much any level. Its called gametape (if your being serious)
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