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Old 01-29-2007, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
Sure Fire;

Brett Favre
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
LaDainian Tomlinson
Marvin Harrison
Orlando Pace
Jonathan Ogden
Michael Strahan
Champ Bailey
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
Brian Urlacher
Junior Seau
Warren Sapp
Urlacher is not sure fire. A Superbowl MVP or another DMVP would definitely help the arguement but he is not a lock yet.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, it was entirely Roaf. And why is it you don't mention any of the Cheifs interior linemen?
They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by throwback54milkman
don't forget about Adam Vinatieri....

as for coaches go (some may be in already)
-Parcells
-Gibbs
-Belichek
-Holmgrem
-Cowher
I'm not sure Holmgren gets in or not. He got to 3 SBs but only won one of them. He has a good record but he could go either way. Same for Cower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neko4
Ahman Green: Green Bay's (future or present) all-time leading rusher, which means he beat out Jim Taylor and Paul Hornung.
No way Green gets in. He is not deserving at all of the HoF.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088
i see like 4 lists without Brett Favre. Call me a packers homer, but that's just *********** stupid. he's easily the biggest lock currently in the NFL.
I think they're probably just forgetting him. Anyone that thinks he won't get in has to have some kind of disability.
Texico...
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Quote:
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.
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If Chase Daniel finishes top 5 in the Heisman I'll cut my balls off.

2008 COTTON BOWL CHAMPIONS
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Quote:
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.
Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaddenPlayer52
Do yall think Ed Reed is a lock or does he have to do more. IMO if he continues to be the best safety in the NFL he will but as of now im not sure he is a lock. Maybe 1 more year.


Try like 5 or 6. You need at least 7-8 years at the top of your game to even be considered. Ask Terrell Davis.

It always amazes me how you guys think everyone gets into the HOF.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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Ahman Green was listed in this thread That made my day
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Quote:
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.
Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.
Pay attention: awards aren't "stats", they are awards, and there are a multitude of reasons why a particular player may get voted for an award. Is Ogden a great OT? Sure? Is he one of the top 5 ever? No. Was he at least the best in his era? NO.

As a Baltimore fan, i'm surprised that you continue to defend Ogden's performances against dominant speed rushers - he has struggled against them his entire career. Are you a new Ravens fan? That's the only excuse I can think of.
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Old 01-29-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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hines ward is above swann and stallworth on pretty much all steeler receiving records, has a ring, and is a superbowl mvp

alan faneca has six pro bowls in a row and will probably continue that until he retires/doesn't start. (he's only 30)
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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Olin Kruetz anyone? He's been one of the best C's in the NFL for what, 8 seasons now and he's got 2 more years left on his contract.
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Quote:
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.
Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.
Pay attention: awards aren't "stats", they are awards, and there are a multitude of reasons why a particular player may get voted for an award. Is Ogden a great OT? Sure? Is he one of the top 5 ever? No. Was he at least the best in his era? NO.

As a Baltimore fan, i'm surprised that you continue to defend Ogden's performances against dominant speed rushers - he has struggled against them his entire career. Are you a new Ravens fan? That's the only excuse I can think of.
Wow, are frigging serious?
sta·tis·tic /stəˈtɪstɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[stuh-tis-tik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Statistics. a numerical fact or datum, esp. one computed from a sample.
http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...stic&x=37&y=15
How is a number of awards not a statistic?
As for speed rushers, how about Kearse? Kearse faced Ogden twice a year with the Titans and got dominated by him annually. Is Kearse not a speed end? How about Joey Porter? What is he, a power guy?
Again, please, I'm dying for some examples of these guys who dominated Ogden in his prime. And I've been a Ravens fan since 1996 if you're so interested.
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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Er I forgot about Will Shields, I knew I would miss someone. Larry Allen too.
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoods
IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking
Had he stayed in Minnesota with Culpepper he would make the HOF but he fell off the face of the earth into the black hole and has not produced much so I don't think he will get in.
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Old 01-29-2007, 09:54 PM    (permalink
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoods
IMO, Randy Moss should be a HOF.

- Currently 5th on the all-time list for TDs by a WR
- Currently 21st on the all-time list for yards by a WR
- Had one of the most dominant rookie seasons for an offense player
- Led the league in TDs three times
- 1st player in history to average 100 yards and 1 TD per game
- Was regarded as one of the most dominant WR during his years as a Viking
Unless he starts to produce more in OAK, his reputation will keep him out.
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Id just like to point out that everything is Moss's fault.
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:55 PM    (permalink
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doingthisinsteadofwork
Id just like to point out that everything is Moss's fault.
You're right. Andrew Walter and Aaron Brooks are great QB's.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
Kevin Carter is not a HOF. Some of y'all need to raise your standards quite a bit.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:22 PM    (permalink
 
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Dan Klecko is a lock. Along with the Sorginator.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetness34
Olin Kruetz anyone? He's been one of the best C's in the NFL for what, 8 seasons now and he's got 2 more years left on his contract.
He's far from a sure thing. Interior lineman rarely are.

Again, raise your standards people, drastically.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
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Old 01-29-2007, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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When did the Hall of Fame become "The Hall of Pretty Good Players?"
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sodar21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody56
can't believe i left him off my list, but Marshall Faulk is a lock
He isn't in the NFL anymore but will be eligible for the HOF soon and will definetly get in. Same with Cris Carter, Rod Woodson, Deion Sanders.
Wrong on more than one count.

First off, Marshall Faulk hasn't yet turned in his retirement papers to the league office.

If he does, considering eligibility doesn't occur until 5 years after the last game played and Faulk's last game was Week 17 of the 2005 season, Faulk wouldn't be eligible until the 2011 ballot.
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