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Old 01-30-2007, 12:29 AM    (permalink
Finz99
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
Oh god, Bearsfan_51 is getting mad again, I have a feeling a poll is going to be made soon...
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
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Old 01-30-2007, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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this poll doesnt make any sense at all
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Old 01-30-2007, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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I choose Cingular
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Old 01-30-2007, 03:23 AM    (permalink
niel89
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the one guy i wish that would make it but i know he wont:

Rod Smith


i love his attitude toward the game. One of the greatest hard workers ive see. went from undrafted to where he is now. i just really think he is one best wide recievers just based apon attitude. sadly he only has 3 probolws and 1 allpro, is 15th in catches and 16th in yards. has 8 1,00 yard seasons. 2 SB rings. but sadly he never really dominated that i know of.


After setting Denver Broncos franchise record for touchdowns: "I really don’t want to talk about me," he said. "I didn’t want to talk about me last week, and I don’t this week. I want to talk about our team."
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Old 01-30-2007, 04:55 AM    (permalink
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the only ones in without doubt would be...

favre
peyton manning
tomlinson
ray lewis
and tom brady

all others are open for discussion.
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Old 01-30-2007, 05:17 AM    (permalink
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Torry Holt...WILL make the HOF....also to the guy who said Warner will make it....
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:03 AM    (permalink
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If Art Monk can't get in, Harrison sure won't. Monk has 3 superbowl rings and higher ypc than Harrison, led the NFL in receptions and broke every single major record for a WR at his time, and Art Monk still isn't in.



:evil: fuking peter king.
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
I will take Edwin Pope's opinion over yours thank you. Considering he is one of 4 people that have been to every super bowl and has been covering the NFL before you lived most likely. At the same time he has a HoF vote. He says Zach is a HoF then he is.

Kevin Carter could end up making the lists, I said Could not for sure.

But Zach Thomas will be in the HoF.
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Old 01-30-2007, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eazyb81
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
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Originally Posted by Bohleive
All homerism aside, anyone who has an OL and not Ogden, or defensive player and not Ray Lewis is rediculous. Ray has two DPOY awards and a super bowl MVP, and [Ogden has been to more probowls than any active OL and was the most dominant OL of his era. People have short memories; not long ago Ray was winning the argument over who was the greatest MLB of all time. Same with Ogden at OT, he was in the mix. They're as sure fire as it gets along with Brady and Manning. Thats the list. You have to be dominant in your era, understand what that means. That's not flavor of the month or who was good for the past three years. Think about how many probowls (is it approaching double digits?), DPOY/OPOY's, records, MVP's and rings the guys on your list have been to compared to those guys.
I beg to differ; Orlando Pace and Willie Roaf were better during their prime, and they shut-down the very best DEs in the league. Ogden dominated average and below-average talent, but struggled against the top DEs in the league.

Ogden gets a lot of hype, but he is a step below Pace and Roaf on the all-time OT rankings.
What?? Who did Pace line up against in the NFC west? And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs. Why don't you compare Pro Bowls or All Pro's; those are the only stats you can get on OL and JO dominates those for his time. The only guy who could challenge JO for the title was Boselli and tragically he didn't get his chance.
Yes, guys like Priest Holmes, Trent Green, Derrick Blaylock...they've always been known as great NFL players, right? They were the ones that were making that KC O-line look good, not the other way around. The odd thing is that KC's offense took a huge nosedive this year for some reason....I still can't figure out what was missing.

You're right, Pro Bowls and All Pros are the only way to compare HOF credentials, thanks for making that highly intelligent point.

Do you think Ogden still has nightmares about Freeney?
Maybe KC's offense took a nosedive because they lost both their OT's, their offensive coordinator, their HC and their starting Quarterback missed half the year with a concussion that he never seemed to recover from. No, maybe it was entirely Roaf. They still weren't bad. A nose dive? Are you saying it their D that got them to the playoffs?
What other tackle are you referring to? Kevin Sampson? Yeah, he was a huge loss. Saunders and Vermeil could have played a small role, but we used the exact same offensive system that we had used in prior years, and kept the coaching staff in tact minus those two. Huard performed very well in place of Green, so that really had no effect.

Yes, the D was primarily responsible for getting KC to the playoffs. I'm guessing you didn't watch many KC games this season, and just assumed that their D still sucks becuase they sucked in past years.


Quote:
Freeny had one good game against JO. How many sacks did Freeny get this year? 0. And thats after JO's prime.
And as for the Pro bowls and ALL Pros please enlighten as to all of the other relevant stats regarding OL. Without stats it's all conjecture.
Of course it's conjecture; this whole thread is conjecture since presumably no one on here gets to vote for HOF. Furthermore, Pro Bowls and All-Pros aren't "stats".

I stand by my original point - Ogden gets overhyped because he dominates against mid-tier competition, but struggles against the elite ends in the game. I've never seen Pace or Roaf get manhandled like Ogden has been on occassion.
Obviously the whole thread is conjecture but you use stats to prove a point. OL only have one stat; awards. Tell me stats don't factor into HOF selections.
And what is this mid-tier competition? And who is this elite competition that the other two faced? Man-handled? Because of one two-sack game against Freeny in his dome? You do realize that since then he's faced Freeny twice and not given up a sack, right? And that was all past his 'prime'. Who else dominated him? I'm dying to know. Give some names.
Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:01 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaddenPlayer52
Do yall think Ed Reed is a lock or does he have to do more. IMO if he continues to be the best safety in the NFL he will but as of now im not sure he is a lock. Maybe 1 more year.
Ed Reed needs to continue to be the most dominant safety of his era for 3 or 4 more years. That will be tough for him since he is already 28, and up and comers like Polamalu, Donte Whitner, Ko Simpson, Michael Huff, and even his own teammate Dawan Landry are all younger and will be at a high level for a longer time.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by Finsfan79
Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
Way to generalize because one Dolphin fan said something about Kevin Carter, who has been on the team for 2 years. :roll:

Someone mentioned Ahman Green but Dolphins fans are the worst? Please.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.
You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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And Roaf, Roaf is the one who's overhyped, simply because he played on a great Chiefs OL, blocking for some great backs.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

You can't really mean that haha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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For the OL argument, I think both Roaf and Ogden will get it, but for who is better, it's gotta be Ogden. Roaf is an amazing player, but Odgen may be the best OT ever (not saying he is, but he is closer than Roaf). I love Roaf, it was obvious how important he was to that offense last season when he was hurt, and this season as well. But pure dominance over a career, it's Ogden.
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Old 01-30-2007, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.
His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas

Definitely JT

Kevin Carter could get in as well for the longevity of his career and what he has accomplished.
God damn you Dolphins fans are the worst. Zach Thomas is not a sure fire HOF. I'm not having this debate again.

And Kevin Carter is just stupid.
Way to generalize because one Dolphin fan said something about Kevin Carter, who has been on the team for 2 years. :roll:

Someone mentioned Ahman Green but Dolphins fans are the worst? Please.
He has something against Zach Thomas (most likely from being a huge urlacher fan seems they often have a problem for some odd reason).

As for Kevin Carter he would be a Ram if he did go in (he was dominate then and won a Ring then), I doubt he will but his numbers arent horrible for the length of time (longevity is looked at for the HoF in the NFL) if he keeps playing another 2-3 years and all. He is the third active leader in Sacks in the NFL currently behind Strahan and Jason Taylor

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3235


As for zach he has average over 150 tackles a year over a ten year career http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/4392

he has done it in multiple systems with multiple D-Coordinators and Head Coaches so it is not just a single system letting him make the tackles. But, whatever he can believe what he wants. I will trust the opinion of the guys that actually have a vote instead of a kid on a message board :)
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.
His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.
Hey, hey... Martin did win the rushing title once! ... by one yard...
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.
His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.
If he hands around for 4-5 years and is a compiler he could do it. But, that is a long time for a running back with wear and tear. It doesnt help his case that the year Indy ditches him they go the furtherest ever (even though it is a team game and people forget that often specially over QBs).

I love Edge though, and I am biased from going to the U.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
I only quickly skimmed through this but has anyone mentioned Edgerrin James. He is by far not a lock but he could get in.
If he didn't get hurt maybe. I love Edge, he is a great player, but he didn't dominate for long enough.
His career isn't over. He'll be 29 in August and is already 17th or 18th I believe on the all time rushing list. People are saying Curtis Martin is a lock. When did Martin ever dominate? He compiled. James could easily do the same until he is 33. And end up with indentical numbers to Martin.

EDIT: Actually James is currently 19th on the list. He coudl easily pass both Eddie George and Tiki Barber and move to 17th in his first game next year.
Hey, hey... Martin did win the rushing title once! ... by one yard...
It a very interesting topic. Taking biases aside because I have one here with Tiki, do you let more people in like Martin because of their total career compiling numbers. Or do you take more guys like Tiki, whose career numbers are decent but dominated for a course of a few years. Sure you are going to get that rare guy like Tomlinson who are both. However lets say James stays on this pace for 4 more years. Most likely he'll have close to 14,000 yards rushing but a 4.0 or 4.1 avg. Tiki on the other hand had three straight years like no other RB and averages 4.7 over his career. But his final rushing numbers will only be 10,400.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.
You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.
I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot - do you even watch Baltimore games? The DEs I named did indeed line up against Ogden during the game; I know this may shock the hell out of you, but DEs sometimes change which side they line up on during a game....crazy, eh?

Finally, i'm not even arguing for Roaf - I think Pace is the best Olineman of our generation. I have no idea why you keep trying to change the argument over to Roaf; i'm guessing you have a serious case of ADD.
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Sorry easy, but I gotta agree with Bohlieve here, please give some names of these guys who dominated Ogden. Ive been a Ravens fan since they came here in 96 and I dont remember these players. And name guys who Pace and Roaf played who were better.
You must have a short memory, because I remember guys like Dwight Freeney, Julius Peppers, Robert Mathis, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Burgess getting the best of Ogden over the past couple years. Sacks allowed is not the only stat to pay attention to when evaluating tackles - hurries are arguably more important, so you really have to use your own eyes and personal judgment.

At one time Ogden was a great tackle, but I don't see him as the best O-lineman of our generation, which was the original point of this argument. It's certainly not an open-and-shut case, but it's my opinion based off watching him play against the best DEs over the last few years. I'm sure his leg injuries have affected his balance, but the majority of OTs have fought through serious injuries as well, so I don't view this as a viable excuse.
I never said Roaf wasn't very good, just overhyped.
And as for your 'list'. None of those guys other than Freeny, for one game out of three, dominated Ogden. Peppers never even lined up against him, he's a LE. Burgess had 0 sacks against him this year and Mathis never lined up against him either. As for Merriman, he had 1 sack lined up against Pashos this season.
Just keep digging that hole. Strange how no one other than Missouri residents agree with you. Your argument is absurd.
How was Roaf over hyped dude went to 11 pro bowls and was the best LT in the game when he played IMO for sure top 3. The guy would take two some times even 3 guys out on a signal play time after time.
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