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Old 11-11-2008, 07:39 PM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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Originally Posted by Xonraider View Post
Its not going to be as simple as that because every defensive linemen will simply move with the motion of the play, giving little room for the fullback if its give and then there's a DE that could as well murder your QB (I certainly wouldn't want Troy Smith optioning Julius Peppers)
That's true Xon. The thing is though that if it was ran in the NFL one time I think it would get about 7 yards the first try and then forever be cursed just because of it being spontaneous. In high school, size is key. College, speed is key. NFL, if I had to guess, intelligence is key. This only applies to flexbone.
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CC.SD View Post
My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.
I LOVE Wing-T. I played it all my life and now as a coach I run it.

I got: Bucksweep, Trap, Waggle, Midline, Sally, Belly, Fake Belly Pass, Triple Option, RocketSweep, Jet Sweep, Counter trap, Dives, wedges, Criss Cross.... the 400 and 600 (shotgun) packages.... it simply pwns
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Old 11-11-2008, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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Great 1st post Shockey. I've been working on a 4-4 "Stack" D for my middle schoolers next year and from what you posted, well... did I leave my playbook in your office?
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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Great 1st post Shockey. I've been working on a 4-4 "Stack" D for my middle schoolers next year and from what you posted, well... did I leave my playbook in your office?
Why does everyone have the same avy??
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Also, thought I'd ask for help. I will be the defensive coordinator for this Flag football league for kids from ages 8 - 12. The rules are VERY different. There can be up to 8 people in the LOS but the minimum is 7. And everyone on the field is elegible... tackles, guards and centers. Help me with some sort of ideas for a scheme. I'm thinking of some sort of Tampa two with certain adjustments of course.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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If I'm the DC against 8 year olds, flood the LOS. Make them beat you with the pass and jam the run.

Cyber-coach

Here are your most basic 5-3 sets. If nothing else it's a start.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
If I'm the DC against 8 year olds, flood the LOS. Make them beat you with the pass and jam the run.

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Here are your most basic 5-3 sets. If nothing else it's a start.
I know of the 5-3 defense, we ran it with our 10-12 year olds. The problem with really staking the line is that there's 12 year olders that CAN throw the football. I hadn't thought of the 5-3 for flag though, gives me some ideas, thanks.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Here is why I said that. I can guarantee you there is some coach thinking up how he can hide a receiver type kid on the line and run "bread and butter" crap all day long, which is fine. You stack the line and shut that play down a few times, by sending 5 kids after the QB and assigning a MLB spy - that coach is going to resort to 25 dives and trying to go deep.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.
We ran the double wing in high school, is that similar/the same as wing t? We had two TE's two RB's on opposite edges of the line and a FB behind the QB. It was very effective but I hated it because it was so boring and predictable. Every time you saw the 2 or 4 back go in motion you knew where the play was going. But watch out for that reverse, it worked like a charm sometimes. Passed maybe 5 times a game, if that. I think if I was coaching HS now I'd install some form of the spread if I had a QB that was capable enough. Here is the formation with the same freaking play we always ran.

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Old 11-11-2008, 09:55 PM    (permalink
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We ran the double wing in high school, is that similar/the same as wing t? We had two TE's two RB's on opposite edges of the line and a FB behind the QB. It was very effective but I hated it because it was so boring and predictable. Every time you saw the 2 or 4 back go in motion you knew where the play was going. But watch out for that reverse, it worked like a charm sometimes. Passed maybe 5 times a game, if that. I think if I was coaching HS now I'd install some form of the spread if I had a QB that was capable enough. Here is the formation with the same freaking play we always ran.

Crazy play. We use it too as a variation to our Wing-T. We call it super power:


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Old 11-11-2008, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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I love the double-wing!!!!
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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Well he wanted to know about defense, so he PMed me. So I am going to start with that, and then move to offense, which is my side of the ball.

So that's the DL. I am going to list of the 4-3 fronts now played in the NFL. So when you hear fans talk about how to stop the run or something. Not always do you need to "stack the box". Instead you can just change your front OR run the same front but tag certain players to line up in different places.

Here is a list of existing 4-3 fronts.

4-3
4-3 Under
4-3 Over
4-3 Wide
4-3 Under Wide
4-3 Swim
4-3 Over Swim
4-3 Wink4-3 Under Swim
4-3 Sink
4-3 Over Sink
4-3 Under Win
4-3 Over Sim
4-3 Stack
4-3 Stack Wide
4-3 Stack Switch
4-3 Cub
4-3 Over Cub
4-3 Bear
4-3 Over Bear


Now these above are most of the 4-3 fronts I know of, and teams can tag players accordingly.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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What do most of them mean? like Sink or Swim
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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I would assume anything that starts with a S goes for Strong side
And everything that starts with W = weak side....

Swim/Sink/Sim/Wink/Win

Over/Under/Stack/Bear
Those probably have to do with your backers...
Over = cheat strong side
Under = stack weakside
Stack = behind lineman
Bear = inbetween lineman

Those are my guesses...we'll see how smart/stupid I am
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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What do most of them mean? like Sink or Swim
Everything stems from the original 4-3



The original 4-3 techniques are

40 00 40

6i, 2i, 2i, 6i


4-3 Swim:

40i, 00, 30

5, 2i, 3, 7


So basically the WIll LB is moved inside one technique, while reducing the RE in as well. By reducing those guys in you are moving the RDT move from a 2i to a 3 and moving the LE over.

So in essence you are moving the DL over to the offenses's right, while reducing the LBs in one spot, which translate to 1 technique.



4-3 Sink:


You have 5 guys on the LOS.

00 40

70(WILL), 5, 2i, 3, 7



SO you can visually see that the line has 5 guys on it, and the mike backer is over the center at LB depth, while the SAM is still over at a 40. Now to compensate for this the LE is out wide more. This is an example where the LE is NOT in the box. The box is defined as 4 X 1 tackle to tackle with 1 yard to the right or left respectively. The LE is shaded to the right of the TE in this, so that means he is NOT in the box.
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Old 11-12-2008, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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I would assume anything that starts with a S goes for Strong side
And everything that starts with W = weak side....

Swim/Sink/Sim/Wink/Win

Over/Under/Stack/Bear
Those probably have to do with your backers...
Over = cheat strong side
Under = stack weakside
Stack = behind lineman
Bear = inbetween lineman

Those are my guesses...we'll see how smart/stupid I am
Not always true, though in the ones he asked it was right. I don't know why they named the way they did, but alot of them are all mixed. Move the DTs over, and flex out out the DE or reduce it, and put the backer on the LOS. It all really depends.


Stack in HS means behind the DL, but in the NFL stack can mean doubling or "stacking" a particular gap. Doesn't have to be lined up directly behind a DL person. Also you stack because you are shielding your LBs from the OL's blocks. Teams do that against the giants OL because it makes them harder to chip off or directly block the 2nd level.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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I despise almost everything about the Wing-T and all its derivatives. We run the flexbone at my school. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

Actually I don't hate it quite as much as I'm letting on. My problem with it is that everything about our team says that we should be running the I. Our tackles are big and powerful, but far too slow to run a Wing based offense. We have two backs that would easily be 1000 yard rushers in the I. We've got a kid that would be a bruising fullback. All the pieces are there for the I, but our offensive coordinator only knows the Wing T, so that's what we're stuck with.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Dont die!!!!
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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I despise almost everything about the Wing-T and all its derivatives. We run the flexbone at my school. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

Actually I don't hate it quite as much as I'm letting on. My problem with it is that everything about our team says that we should be running the I. Our tackles are big and powerful, but far too slow to run a Wing based offense. We have two backs that would easily be 1000 yard rushers in the I. We've got a kid that would be a bruising fullback. All the pieces are there for the I, but our offensive coordinator only knows the Wing T, so that's what we're stuck with.
Is there anything that you can do about it?
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
So is E gap wide of the TE then? I thought E gap was where you have D gap...
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Old 11-14-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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BBD schooled me about the 46 Defense, and Thule's thread had a great read on it, but to reiterate what he said it's tough to have that kind of personnel on a defense but if you have the capable players it would be a tough scheme to beat, but I guess you could argue that for any D though.
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Is there anything that you can do about it?
Not really. It's the offensive coordinators scheme. As an oline coach, it's just my job to teach his scheme to the linemen. He's doesn't know anything, really, besides the Wing-T.
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Old 11-14-2008, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Not really. It's the offensive coordinators scheme. As an oline coach, it's just my job to teach his scheme to the linemen. He's doesn't know anything, really, besides the Wing-T.
It couldn't hurt to present some new ideas, could it? Is he the type that would take offense to that?
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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So is E gap wide of the TE then? I thought E gap was where you have D gap...
Nope that's D gap, after that it's outside or considered the "alley". Also, the "box" is 4 X1, so outside the TE is not considered in the box.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Nope that's D gap, after that it's outside or considered the "alley". Also, the "box" is 4 X1, so outside the TE is not considered in the box.
Huh, I could've sworn I saw a different gap chart before, but that makes sense. Then again, maybe I confused gaps and techniques.
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