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Old 02-10-2007, 01:21 PM    (permalink
 
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Montana may have had an even better supporting cast on offense than manning. And he damn sure had a better defense.
Elway also had 6 pro bowlers on offense with him.
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ELWAY HAVING NO SUPPORTING CAST IT IS THE 80S!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone admits his super bowl teams were great. But hell, he was 37-38 years old by then. When Bobby Humphrey is the best player on your offense other than you for the greater part of a decade, that is a problem.
Wow, overreact why don't you? I was just talking about Stats' post saying what if Elway had a great supporting cast.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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1). Joe Montana
2). Peyton Manning
3). Brett Favre
4). Steve Young
5). John Elway
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Old 02-10-2007, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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I'm not gonna say that Favre never played with any great offensive players around him, because there were a few, but he made a career out of making mediocre players around him look like all-pros. I mean on just about any other team I doubt Antonio Freeman even sniffs the Pro Bowl. During the Super Bowl years our defense was amazing, which definitely brought the Pack up to elite level, but for the majority of Favres career they were merely solid but unspectacular.

I think a lot of the younger members on this site who didn't watch Favre in his prime underrate him because of the poor seasons he's had the last few years during the downside of his career. The fact of the matter is that Favre put together some of the single best seasons from a QB ever when he was in his prime, including 8 seasons of 30+ TD's. His "penchant" for throwing lots of INT's is also vastly overblown. In 16 seasons in the NFL he's only had 4 seasons in which his INT's were equal to (or greater than) the amount of TD's he threw. Yea, his gunslinger mentality has gotten the best of him on many occasions leading him to throw uneccesary INT's trying to make impossible throws, but it's that same mentality that made him great. The majority of his career he's been in the top 5 in every major statistical category for QB's, even in his later "washed up years". Anybody who doesn't have Favre in their top 5 is delusional.



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Old 02-10-2007, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
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Originally Posted by someone447
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Originally Posted by cardsalltheway
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Originally Posted by someone447
Montana may have had an even better supporting cast on offense than manning. And he damn sure had a better defense.
Elway also had 6 pro bowlers on offense with him.
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ELWAY HAVING NO SUPPORTING CAST IT IS THE 80S!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone admits his super bowl teams were great. But hell, he was 37-38 years old by then. When Bobby Humphrey is the best player on your offense other than you for the greater part of a decade, that is a problem.
Wow, overreact why don't you? I was just talking about Stats' post saying what if Elway had a great supporting cast.
We have been saying it for 6 pages now... Yes, and he won 2 super bowls with that cast.
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Old 02-10-2007, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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Montana may have had an even better supporting cast on offense than manning. And he damn sure had a better defense.
Maybe for his 3rd and 4th SB. But not the 1st two.
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Old 02-10-2007, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Montana may have had an even better supporting cast on offense than manning. And he damn sure had a better defense.
Elway also had 6 pro bowlers on offense with him.
I think it took about 10 seasons for Elway to have a WR or OL of his make the pro bowl....and he took those teams to 3 SBs(4 AFC Championships). Now think about what he would have done with Wayne, Harrison, Edge, and Pollard/Clark.
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Old 02-13-2007, 03:33 AM    (permalink
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Favorite:
Jim Plunkett
Ken Stabler
Rich Gannon
Warren Moon
Randall Cunningham

Best:
Joe Montana
Terry Bradshaw
Tom Brady
Troy Aikman
John Elway
Honorable mention: Jim Plunkett
RINGS COUNT!
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Old 02-13-2007, 07:48 AM    (permalink
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Elway was definitely better, but the number of HOFers they had on their team shouldn't be an indication, especially with all the snubs and terribly underrated players there are out there. But, you can compare them to the teams of the time, in which case the Steelers were vastly superior to their opposition opposed to Elway's teams (granted, they were exceptional as well).
3/5 of elway's teams were not exceptional.

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But in all actuality, the only "great" QB to never be surrounded by a great supporting cast is probably Peyton, and possibly Marino. That I can think of anyway.
i have no idea what you're trying to say. if you're implying that peyton had as little talent as marino... well, i'm curious how you came to that conclusion.
I think Elway's teams got underrated considerably, but I don't imagine that argument getting anywhere.

As for comparing Marino and Manning's teams, well, no, that's not what I was saying at all.
elway's 97 and 98 super bowl teams were underrated. his late 80's and early 90's teams were most definitely not. vance johnson, mark jackson and ricky nattiel weren't making anyone worry during game planning, and the broncos running game (for most of that period) was atrocious.
They actually had some pretty good defenses. Nothing like the Steelers or Cowboys or whomever, but certainly more than they're being given credit for. But I don't see that point getting anywhere.

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the only "great" QB to never be surrounded by a great supporting cast is probably Peyton
i see no other way that can be interpreted than with you saying that peyton has no talent around him.
I actually don't see what you can't comprehend about this. I am saying he has considerably less talent on his teams opposed to most other HOF/HOF-worthy QBs beyond Marino, but that's it.
Peyton has had a very talented team around him in recent years. He has a future HOF'er to throw to in Marvin Harrison, he had a very good RB in Edge, Addai is coming along as well, and not to mention one of the best offensive lines over the last decade. His offensive line is unbelievable, especially during the regular season, they have collapsed at points in the playoffs, but they are a very good group. Reggie Wayne is one of the top 3 #2 receivers in the NFL. His offense has been pretty stacked. He hasn't had the benefit of having a good defense to back him up like some other HOF qb's. The Marino comparison isn't that far off, they were similar defensively (not including this year during the regular season), both decent units, more bend but don't break than anything else. Marino had no running game, and while the Mark's bro's were good, they were no Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. Also Peyton actually has a run game.
Duper was rather over-rated honestly he was more of just a sprinter made by marino's accurate arm. Clayton was a solid WR but by no account elite without the QB making him so. I would think Wayne would be considered better then either. Nat Moore was at the end of his career when Danny was starting up sadly. Defensively the team was "alright" but never anything special. After Dwight Stephenson went down with the injury in the mid 80s it would be 5+ more years before he would get a decent offensive line. He never had a RB worth a damn and really never had a dominating player on the defensive side really unless you wanna count Offardahl (sp) MLB, but really he was a bust for his potentials.

Overall I think the only critism in his entire career for Don Shula was he never put enough pieces around Marino to make it happen. Don himself has said that many times, as had people that played with Danny.

So yeah I completely agree that Most of the QB's ahead of him on some of these lists had alot more work with. Specially Montana, Brady, Peyton, Bradshaw.

As for the superbowl of winning one or two or three it is an interesting debate to wage with folks. I always find it interesting how folks equiate the Super bowl victory to the QB. Why they dont do that with other positions though. Yes a QB touches the ball every time on offense, but it is a 11 offense, 11 defense, and special teams (subs too) team.

Would anyone on this board say Franco Harris is a Better Running back then OJ Simpson was? Or Gale Sayers? How about Barry Sanders?

Harris won 3 Super bowls and is a Hall of Famer, Sanders won none. But never had a team around him.
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Old 02-13-2007, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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Harris won 4 superbowls. He was also a better all around back than Sanders. Sanders was knoen as stone hands and he couldn't block. As a pure runner, there is no doubt Sanders was better. Just 2 different kinds of ball players. I think that goes with alot of qb's also. Lots of different styles, so it is kinda hard to compare. I think that is why it is important to realize what kind of leadership a player has or had and who called the plays and also who made what players better around them. There is alot that goes into what makes a qb great besides how many yards they throw for.
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Old 02-13-2007, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Harris won 4 superbowls. He was also a better all around back than Sanders. Sanders was knoen as stone hands and he couldn't block. As a pure runner, there is no doubt Sanders was better. Just 2 different kinds of ball players. I think that goes with alot of qb's also. Lots of different styles, so it is kinda hard to compare. I think that is why it is important to realize what kind of leadership a player has or had and who called the plays and also who made what players better around them. There is alot that goes into what makes a qb great besides how many yards they throw for.
I know Harris is a heck of a back I watched games taped of him more then a few times, very nice player. But, if you asked any NFL GM if they would take him over Barry Sanders you might find 1 in the whole NFL. I concur there is alot around a great QB, I always find it amusing how Peyton gets credit for audibles at the line but in the old days QBs used to do that all the time. The announcers today need to watch tapes of some of the older QBs.

OJ? Gale Sayers?

My point is great backs are out there that never won the superbowl, I feel that the QB position gets hyped up as "the man" that did it all.

Look at brady for instance in his super bowl run (the first one) he had exactly 1 TD pass the whole Playoffs and superbowl.

Or Vinatari, he is mister "clutch" well the first super bowl he went only 1 for 3.

It is sorta funny how the ESPN/Sports talk Mentality has infiltrated sports in every possible way in every sport.

Till this past year Arod had a better OPS then Jeter in the playoffs but Jeter was clutch. Dwyane Wade can miss every shot at the end of the game for the rest of his life but will be considered "clutch" and a winner for what he did last year in the playoffs (vs pistons and then finals) and the first few years of his career.

I think some of the labels are just over-rated is all specially the coach worship and QB worship in the NFL to a point.
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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1 Montana
2 Unitas
3 Elway
4 Marino
5 Manning
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Old 02-13-2007, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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Dan Marino
John Elway
Joe Montana
Brett Farve
Warren Moon
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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Montana
Elway
Brady
Favre
Unitas

*manning wins another one he cracks the lineup
**Brady wins another one he's the best ever, period.
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Old 02-15-2007, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Otto Graham = #1
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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No order

Montana
Favre
Manning
Elway
Marino
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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1a. Unitas
1b. Montana
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Elway

Marino
Favre

Too many great QBs to make a Top-5 as if you want to go OLD OLD school, we'd have Benny Friedman.
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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1. Joe Montana
2. John Elway
3. Dan Marino
4. Johnny Unitas
5. Troy Aikman
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Wow, we're still talking about this. Id have Montana in at #1 if I didn't view Unitas so highly. I respect what Unitas has done for the game, so I put him at 1A and Montana at 1B.

And for those that knock Montana, youre putting way too much emphasis on measurables. Who cares about measureables. Deacon Jones was drafted in like the 9th round of the draft, and he's the best DE ever. Measureables are overrated.

Montana is arguably the most clutch qb ever, constant winner, won SBs with and without great offensive talent, and proved his worth when he took a KC team to the AFC Championship game. He hardly had the cast he had in SF there, and still made them instant winners. That team had Montana, Allen, an average supporting cast around those 2 offensively, and a good defense. And Marty Schottenheimer. I love Marty, but his playoff resume is well noted, and Montana took him to the AFC Championship game. For him to do that with the talent he had around him was amazing, he wasn't supposed to be in the AFC championship game. Montana was in a purist sense, the best ever. I put Unitas ahead of him because of how he changed the game.
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Best

1. Montana
2. Marino
3. Favre
4. Manning
5. Elway
6. Brady
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Old 02-22-2007, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Tony Romo :D :D :D
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