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Old 01-22-2008, 08:08 PM    (permalink
dbtb135
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Where have you pointed out that Stovall doesn't have good speed? All you say is we have big, slow receivers. Where's your proof?
Everything he's shown, our UNDOUBTED need of speed at WR past Joey. He's a big, bulky WR who everyone called a possession WR coming into the draft. He didn't run any better than a little below average. Wouldn't that be your first clue? A guy like Colston who is big, but not known as much as a possession WR, ran better than him, gets more separation than him (using his speed, cuts rather than his SIZE-Stovall). Just because they are big guys doesn't mean they are slow, thats not any correlation I made. But the fact that he has never shown what anyone could consider good speed. Outside of ALL that, how is he speedy until proven otherwise? Thats ridiculous.

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Galloway is one of the fastest in the league. Ike is slow. Clayton improved his speed this year and looked a lot faster. He's not a burner, but he's above-average in that department.
Joey is incredibly fast, but that takes nothing away from the other WRs. You can have Brandon Jacobs, Darren Sproles, and Garrett Wolfe on the same team and it's not that they look small in comparison, but that they ARE small. Same with Joey and the other WRs when it comes to speed. I'm not saying our WRs all have to be Joey Galloway fast, but they aren't anywhere close. They have adequate speed at best. Clayton, like Stovall, never gets separation. He hasn't looked anywhere near fast since he could actually play in 04.

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Originally Posted by etk View Post
Stovall is anything but slow. Every draft report and magazine I've seen has said that he's a deep threat, he has good speed, and he proved it on the field. He was always our first guy down on the punt team and he was one of the best gunners in the league because of it.
He WAS a deep threat at ND. Their line gave him plenty of time to get down the field and he used his SIZE to make the catch. Plenty of other WRs have been the same in college only to have their speed and separation ability questioned at the pro level. I'm sure Clayton would make a good gunner too, but his size and physicality go a long way there. Punts take longer to develop than passing plays.

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If he played more on offense he would've shown his speed there too. He and Clayton were both kick returners at one point, and Ike was our punt returner. If these guys were the slowest players in the league...why were they so prominent on special teams, which is basically geared for speed and athleticism.
They were poor returners is the answer. Mark Jones was great for us. Pittman was much better than Clayton (who wasn't terrible), and miles better Stovall. And Pittman, while having solid speed, is no burner. Yet he looked like one in comparison. Ike was there for his sure hands, and our team has been CONSTANTLY criticized having such a slow guy back there. Although, P-Buc has great speed and always fair caught the ball.

The thing I find absolutely mind-boggling is that you use these things as a REASON WHY they have good speed. The reverses with Clayton were some of the most highly criticized and downright stupid playcalls of Gruden's time here. They weren't particularly successful at all. Ike returning punts was highly criticized, since we didn't have anyone capable past recycled Torrie Cox and Mark Jones (who finally figured it out before going down). He wasn't successful. Yet you use these instances to prop up their speed, when our entire fanbase is complaining about their lack or speed and the fact that these plays haven't been successful by and large. They must have speed if they are calling reverses and returning with them. Assumptions get you nowhere.

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Our only other receiver was Michael Spurlock, who looked slow as hell as our kick returner. We have one lighting-fast receiver, one slow receiver, and 3 with good speed. How do we have the slowest bunch in the league? They all look slow on offensebecause Gruden doesn't use them on anything but slants and curls, and Clayton's reverses were never well executed.
Yeah, the problem with Clayton's reverses are that they aren't well executed. Other teams use Devery Henderson or Randy Moss or Antwan Randle El or Steve Smith. Some speedster on reverses. We use a WR who only one man on the face of the earth could pass as fast. That probably has something to do with it.

I've seen Clayton try a couple of double moves, hitch-and-go, and it wasn't a pretty sight.

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I'm not talking out of my ass here. I saw these guys up close against the Panthers. I saw Clayton running in the pre-game, and he looked like the fastest guy out there. I saw on him running posts and ins and he looked very fluid. If we used him more on those kinds of plays he would be effective.
Why don't we just post a poll, and get some objective opinions on this?
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Once again, I haven't seen any evidence posted by you to prove how Clayton and Stovall are slow. Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own. When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.

I could do the same things you do...like when you say we have the slowest receivers in the league, I could say "Jacksonville Jaguars". I choose to focus on the actual argument in itself, which is you saying Clayton and Stovall are slow when they really aren't. Once again, to imitate you, Clayton struggles to get separation because he doesn't have good quickness in and out of cuts. Our offense involves short-drops where speed is basically stripped of you unless you can make plays after the catch. Galloway is very effective because he is quick and has the suddenness that the bigger guys lack. What Clayton does have is good straight-line downfield speed. I don't see how that opinion is subjective. I'm not a Clayton fanboy, I just repeat what I see.

I think you're confused, to be honest. You're mixing up different kinds of athleticism. You say Pittman has good speed, when I disagree. Pittman is elusive and quick, so he looks fast, but I'd bet good money that Stovall and Clayton would beat him in a race. Of course 2 6'4 receivers aren't as shifty so they don't look fast, which I understand. Stovall can run, as we saw at ND, the Senior Bowl and on punt coverage. I've never seen him look slow on a fade or go.

Let me read you this quote from tSN, which devotes more people to scouting the draft and the NFL than probably anyone. "Stovall is built like a tight end, but he's fast...he plays a little like Randy Moss and Terrell Owens, minus the attitude." Is that not an objective opinion for you? Obviously there's a lot more to the story, but a player as talented as Stovall should be getting more touched in our offense.

I also found it funny how you credited ND's line for Stovall getting deep in college. ND's line was constantly criticized from what I remember, and should you fault Stovall for using his size to make catches? Marques Colston is another guy with similar speed (good, not great speed) to Stovall who does the same. I think Stovall has the talent to be used as a Colston, but I guess Gruden has different thoughts.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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Once again, I haven't seen any evidence posted by you to prove how Clayton and Stovall are slow. Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own. When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.
Sure, play speed, separation, 40 time, no evidence whatsoever. And your evidence? "I saw him in Carolina, and I think he's fast." How am I supposed to refute that?

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Instead, all you do is point out flaws in my argument instead of making your own.
If I disagree with something, why wouldn't I point it out? Is that not allowed? I've made PLENTY of my own arguments, go back through the page my god! It's like talking to a wall here.

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When I do post something you agree on, like how Spurlock has good speed, you just ignore it in your response.
I'm trying to cover everything I can here, sorry it doesn't measure up to standards. Spurlock, I don't really have any opinion on him. He won't make our next cut and his return was mostly blocking.

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I could do the same things you do...like when you say we have the slowest receivers in the league, I could say "Jacksonville Jaguars".
Hey, they're fast because they aren't the slowest! That is the point of this whole thing, remember?

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I choose to focus on the actual argument in itself, which is you saying Clayton and Stovall are slow when they really aren't.
I've given you all I can. The consensus, so not MY bias in any way, shape or form. Their below average 40 time(no bias). Their SEPARATION, which you haven't answered but it clear they don't get (again, no bias). And all you keep saying is "yeah, they do have good speed(room for bias). See, we used Clayton on a couple of reverses (assumption). He MUST be fast! I saw him in warm-ups and he looked fast to me(room for bias)."

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Once again, to imitate you, Clayton struggles to get separation because he doesn't have good quickness in and out of cuts. Our offense involves short-drops where speed is basically stripped of you unless you can make plays after the catch.
In mid-season when our line came together, and a lot when Luke McCown was in, players were given more time for their routes to develop than before. Even then, when Clayton actually got on the field, he wasn't getting anything. His timed speed was poor coming into the league, but played faster. I'm not going to take away from his rookie year because he PLAYED FASTER, but since then obviously his speed, hands, production, separation, everything has gone well downhill. Leaving only his blocking.

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I also found it funny how you credited ND's line for Stovall getting deep in college. ND's line was constantly criticized from what I remember, and should you fault Stovall for using his size to make catches? Marques Colston is another guy with similar speed (good, not great speed) to Stovall who does the same. I think Stovall has the talent to be used as a Colston, but I guess Gruden has different thoughts.
ND's line was pretty good until bowl games. Then they dropped up big time this year. In 05 though, they gave Quinn plenty of time except against OSU. Even played SC well, though they were no defensive powerhouse then.

I never faulted Stovall for using his size, I don't know how you are reading some of this and responding in the manner you are. It's mind-boggling really.

Colston was and still is heavier, faster, and smoother than Stovall. I like Stovall, but he can be more of a big, lumbering guy at times. I'm not saying he is, but he is not on par with the better big, smooth, athletic WRs of the league. But I'm sure you'll twist that into a slight on the guy.
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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I have one question. If you're so negative about every player on our team, why are you a fan? All I've ever seen you do here is pick arguments with me where you give negative commentary to players.

This argument is pointless. I've given non-biased examples to how Stovall and Clayton aren't slow, among other things, and you just ignore those points and reply to the ones that suit your picking needs. If I keep replying, you will continue with this pick-and-choose style.
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Old 01-23-2008, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I have one question. If you're so negative about every player on our team, why are you a fan? All I've ever seen you do here is pick arguments with me where you give negative commentary to players.
How am I negative about every player on our team? I've supported guys like Trublood, Sears, and I'm not sure but I think Adams too. I supported Jeff back before he won the QB job, when I believe it was you knocking him. I support tons of our players. I support Haye, even though I don't think he's an every down lineman. He's way better at the Ellis Wyms role than Ellis Wyms ever was. My problem is our WRs are by and large slow and lackluster past Joey Galloway. Again, when the consensus within AND outside the fanbase is that our biggest need may be WR and that we definitely need speed at WR, then I don't think I'm out of line at all to say the same thing. Why do you?

I've agreed with you sometimes, it's just that more often than not I don't. I don't target anybody, I just come on here and post my thoughts. If there's something I agree/disagree with, I'll point that out too.

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This argument is pointless. I've given non-biased examples to how Stovall and Clayton aren't slow, among other things, and you just ignore those points and reply to the ones that suit your picking needs. If I keep replying, you will continue with this pick-and-choose style.
I broke down that plain and simple. The only thing that you have brought up that was unbiased were the draft mags, which I'm sure some questioned his speed. Didn't get a chance to cover that.
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry for accusing you of hating our players. You've bashed Haye, Stovall & Clayton pretty hard in this thread so that's where I took it.

Not trying to assume anything from your posts, but it seems like you're simply taking out frustration on 2 culpable targets when really you're missing the point. Our receivers are poor and they do lack quickness and burst out of cuts (beyond Galloway). I think you're making a large overstatement by saying they're slow, because I don't think Stovall, Clayton, Jones, Spurlock, etc. are slow. I think all 4 of them have ample speed and I don't know why you find that so obnoxious. Our WRs by and large lack overall athleticism, but I like what they have to offer on deep speed (fades, posts, etc.).

We definitely do need speed at WR, but not the way you imply it. We need an Avery/Caldwell type that breaks smoothly and sharply in-and-out of cuts. Any Bucs fan would agree on that.

It probably was me knocking Jeff. It took me a little while to realize Simms just didn't cut it in Gruden's offense, so I took it out on Jeff because I wanted an answer for our future QB. I've completely reversed my thought process on that issue since then.

If Haye's not an every-down lineman, what's your solution? Do we play have him share minutes with Hovan at UT and start Sims? Do we draft or sign someone? I think all we need is Greg Peterson to step up and spell Haye more often to give him more resting time. Haye is a motor guy and that motor fell off towards the end of the season as he wore down, especially at the end of drives. I don't think we need any drastic change there.
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Old 01-23-2008, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry for accusing you of hating our players. You've bashed Haye, Stovall & Clayton pretty hard in this thread so that's where I took it.

Not trying to assume anything from your posts, but it seems like you're simply taking out frustration on 2 culpable targets when really you're missing the point. Our receivers are poor and they do lack quickness and burst out of cuts (beyond Galloway). I think you're making a large overstatement by saying they're slow, because I don't think Stovall, Clayton, Jones, Spurlock, etc. are slow. I think all 4 of them have ample speed and I don't know why you find that so obnoxious. Our WRs by and large lack overall athleticism, but I like what they have to offer on deep speed (fades, posts, etc.).

We definitely do need speed at WR, but not the way you imply it. We need an Avery/Caldwell type that breaks smoothly and sharply in-and-out of cuts. Any Bucs fan would agree on that.

It probably was me knocking Jeff. It took me a little while to realize Simms just didn't cut it in Gruden's offense, so I took it out on Jeff because I wanted an answer for our future QB. I've completely reversed my thought process on that issue since then.

If Haye's not an every-down lineman, what's your solution? Do we play have him share minutes with Hovan at UT and start Sims? Do we draft or sign someone? I think all we need is Greg Peterson to step up and spell Haye more often to give him more resting time. Haye is a motor guy and that motor fell off towards the end of the season as he wore down, especially at the end of drives. I don't think we need any drastic change there.
No problem man.

Jones has good speed, although I don't know how well he'll come back from the same injury Caddy got. You could tell the difference between him on returns and everyone else we've had on returns. I do think Clayton is pretty slow to be honest. He wasn't his rookie year, but since then he isn't getting much separation on anyone. Stovall I think has slightly below average timed speed and plays at about the same level. I really don't think he needs great speed though to play the same position Ike Hilliard and Keyshawn have both excelled at. But just him with the group of Clayton, Ike, Warren just don't get it done from a speed standpoint.

Hovan is not a UT since his pass rushing days are well behind him. I think we should look to draft someone and try to develop Peterson at LDE. Like Haye, not a starter, but I think he would be a good run defending DE and has a little flash of pass rushing like Spires used to. I'm probably in the minority on Peterson to end though. I don't think he's terrible or even bad to have there, it's just like LT to me though; so important that if you can get an upgrade you should go after it. Luke Petitgout looked good last year when he played and Penn did a little too, but I wouldn't hesitate to pick someone with great talent because of any of them. Haye is only in his 2nd season though, so the staff may want to hold off on anything that might phase him out as we all saw how quickly Wyms went from being "the guy" at UT after the Booger trade to completely out the door.

Good stuff.
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Old 01-24-2008, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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I think Peterson could take over Carter's role at LDE for the short term, with Gaines taking over on passing downs. I'd rather see us draft an every-down LDE or another pass rusher though. There's Campbell and Merling in the 1st, L. Jackson in the 2nd, but the most realistic is Jeremy Thompson. He explodes well off the snap and sets up blockers well with his moves. He uses his hands to separate on an edge rush like White, but he also has counter moves to the inside. He would be a great pick-up.

I think elite UTs are very rare, and we have a good one in Haye. Sapp, Harris and Kevin Williams don't grow on trees. All we can do is add competition to the position unless Ellis falls or someone great becomes available in FA.

Wyms was just a notch below Haye, and injuries killed off any chance he had of being "the guy". If we go DT, I think Trevor Laws would be our best bet. He's good enough with leverage to play Hovan's role, but he separates well enough from blocks (great handwork and technique) to provide depth at UT, and a better option versus the run.

In the other thread, I said Chris Williams would be a good upgrade. If Penn continued to improve, I wouldn't hesitate to have him replace Trueblood and his wide base either.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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I think Peterson could take over Carter's role at LDE for the short term, with Gaines taking over on passing downs. I'd rather see us draft an every-down LDE or another pass rusher though. There's Campbell and Merling in the 1st, L. Jackson in the 2nd, but the most realistic is Jeremy Thompson. He explodes well off the snap and sets up blockers well with his moves. He uses his hands to separate on an edge rush like White, but he also has counter moves to the inside. He would be a great pick-up.

I think elite UTs are very rare, and we have a good one in Haye. Sapp, Harris and Kevin Williams don't grow on trees. All we can do is add competition to the position unless Ellis falls or someone great becomes available in FA.

Wyms was just a notch below Haye, and injuries killed off any chance he had of being "the guy". If we go DT, I think Trevor Laws would be our best bet. He's good enough with leverage to play Hovan's role, but he separates well enough from blocks (great handwork and technique) to provide depth at UT, and a better option versus the run.

In the other thread, I said Chris Williams would be a good upgrade. If Penn continued to improve, I wouldn't hesitate to have him replace Trueblood and his wide base either.
With Greg White likely moving over to LDE as Adams becomes more comfortable, I think we just need a solid player and not a 1st rounder at the position. Peterson would work great as he balances White very well. I think we need more of a rush up front, mainly at NT if could be had.

I want to keep Haye and get him a good number of snaps, but if we can add more to the position, I'd be in favor of it.

Wyms had some decent numbers last year with 5 sacks in limited time. Kinda Haye-like production over the course of a season. But he never brought it together. Laws would be a great pickup IMO.

I like Williams too, very balanced. I don't think he's an elite level LT, more of a David Deihl type, but I think he'd be a Pro Bowl level RT, like Willie Anderson.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Have these White-LDE rumors been substantiated, or is it just what's assumed on the Bucs boards? I don't love that move and I'd rather have him and Adams split time on the right, with Gaines playing the left side on 3rd downs.

If White is indeed our full-time starter at LDE...NT immediately becomes our biggest need on the defensive front. I honestly never watched ND this year (had enough of them) except for their OT against Navy, so I don't really know any of their prospects prior to know. Laws looks like something special. He's as close to unblockable as you can get from a DT, and he put up ridiculous tackle numbers on that defense.

Williams probably doesn't have the potential of a Ryan Clady or Jeff Otah, but he is solid against run and pass. He looks like a sound pass blocker from a footwork and technique standpoint, but he won't be shutting down the elite pass rushers that have perfected their craft and pass rush moves. I think he does project to LT, but he will need help against guys like Mario Williams and Dwight Freeney, especially early on. Once again, what separates him from a RT prospect like Gosder Cherilus is his footwork and natural bend.
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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Technically the Buc's had White listed at LE for most of the 07 season on the depth chart so take that for what you will.
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Old 02-19-2008, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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Panthers- Julis Peppers: A very rare physical specimin, add to that his unbelievable athletisim. He is one of the best DE's in the NFL. Fits great into the Tampa 2.

Falcons deangelo hall: He may not be a perfect fit for Monte's tampa 2 but he is an elite cover corner and Kiffin would find a way to make it work.

Saints Marques Colston: A young very productive WR that has many good years ahaed of him. Would Give the Buc's a much needed boost a WR and would be a great fit in the west coast offence.
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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in a re-do after the draft:

Carolina - OT Jordan Gross (to play RG)
Tampa Bay - CB Ronde Barber
New Orleans - OT Jamaal Brown (to play RT)
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:00 AM    (permalink
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Post-draft:

Carolina: RT Jordan Gross
Bucs: RG Davin Joseph
Saints: DT Sed Ellis
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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These two Bucs fans sound like a less angry version of me and another Falcons fan poster.

Post draft-

New Orleans- Sedrick Ellis, DT
Tampa Bay- Devin Joseph, OG
Carolina- Ryan Kalil, C

Going young and in the trenches.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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Here is my post draft version.

Carolina - Steve Smith: Despite drafting Dexter Jackson, adding a receiver of Steve Smith's quality would be wonderful.

Atlanta - John Abraham: Nobody excites me terribly about the Falcons but Abraham and Adams would be a force to be reckoned with on 3rd down.

New Orleans - Jamaal Brown: Petitgout and Penn are quality players, but Brown is a tier above them.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
dbro
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Panthers- Julius Peppers
Bucs- Ronde Barber
Falcons- Michael Turner
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:41 PM    (permalink
SaintsMan
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For the Saints...

Steve Smith, WR, Carolina Panthers
Tanard Jackson, FS, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Michael Turner, RB, Atlanta Falcons
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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Since I'm a Chiefs fan I will go AFC West.

SD - OG Kris Dielman

Oak - CB Nnamdi Asomugha

Denver - WR Brandon Marshall
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Falcons: John Abraham
Saints: Jahri Evans
Bucs: ....not sure. maybe Jovan Haye
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Saints: Drew Brees
Falcons: Roddy White
Buccaneers: Gaines Adams
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Old 01-11-2009, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Panthers: Jon Beason
Bucs: Gaines Adams
Saints: Jammal Brown (at RT)
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Old 01-11-2009, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Falcons: Matt Ryan
Panthers: Julius Peppers
Saints: Marques Colston

That was easy.

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Old 01-11-2009, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Ryan....eww no way.

Brees
Peppers
White

Championship.
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Old 01-11-2009, 11:47 AM    (permalink
d34ng3l021
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Ryan's the future!

Bucs: FS Tanard Jackson
Saints: DT Sedrick Ellis
Panthers: OT Jordan Gross
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