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Old 04-26-2009, 10:48 AM    (permalink
BroadwayJoe10
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I'm honestly not thrilled with our WR situation, but I'm not as worried as some i guess. Cotchery has already proven he can equal, if not exceed Coles' production and I would bet good money that if given the #2 or #3 spot, Stuckey can improve upon his 32 catches, 360 yards and 3 tds.

That was Stuckey's line in limited duty. In all fairness, no one thought Cotchery was going to be putting up 1000 yds and 6 tds a season as well until someone gave him a chance. Stuckey has the skillset to put up 800 yds and ~5 tds. I was all for giving our QBs a shot, but I'm more than thrilled with Sanchez and now I'm all for giving our WR's a shot to see what they can do.
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Oh I hate the Patriots. Next year's draft will be loaded and they again have a ton of picks.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:11 AM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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Touching on some things that were said.

I would rather give up a pick in this draft versus 2010 draft for the move up. I never like giving future picks because you don't know what will be there. This isn't necessarily a deep draft, so getting 2 guys that you feel were in the higher tiers is fine by me.

They obviously felt very strongly about the 2 guys that they got, which is exactly what you want. I'd rater get 2 guys you really like and truely feel are worth moving up for because they can help your team, than just saying that we got some guys and they may help in those areas. Get good players! You highly value them, go get them, don't just sit there and be content with guys who you aren't as high on.

I agree that we have been great in the 4th round, and it suchs giving that up. However, there is a reason they gave it up, they obviously felt strong about Greene.

I love the idea of having a tough defense and deep/strong running game. That is my ideal situation. It will be great to help the young/inexperienced QBs learn. Whether that QB is Kellen (while he lets Sanchez learn the offense and hopefully proves that he belongs as an NFL starting QB) or Sanchez starting starting early or later, this is an ideal to not overload the QB or put to much pressure on their shoulders.

Is Sanchez to those WRs better than Clemens to Crabtree/Cotchery? Maybe it is....that is the thing, you don't really know. You can't look at it in a single year view, and you certainly can't take the view that one will pan out and the other will not. If Sanchez is a top level QB, YES THE SANCHEZ ONE IS BETTER. If Clemens plays like crap, YES THE SANCHEZ ONE IS BETTER. Whether it is either of those, or the opposites, we are yet to see. Fact remains, there was obviously some level of understanding between coaches and management that Clemens couldn't be the guy to lead us, or Sanchez really blew them away. Similarly, there was something that let Crabtree fall.

I'll be honest. When they traded up to #5 i was stunned and worried (once i saw the details i felt a whole lot better, as i think we got a great deal) and initially thought Crabtree might be our selection. I agree, having that potential #1 WR locked up would be great. Also, a WR usually takes a year to get acclaimed to the league, so we could have been a year in there if we drafted a QB next year if Clemens busted. But, if you see a QB you think can excel, you take him. QB is a much more important position and is harder to find. Let him learn the offense, get a year under his belt is more important than getting a WR that year.

I can see both sides of the fence, and pros/cons of both. QB is a huge risk, but a necessary one. I am very happy that management did a bold move to get what they wanted. They have the perfect setup to not overload and put everythign on his shoulders with the run game and defense. Get a QB while you can. I'm looking at this in a positive light, as it is what we have. Quality over quantity. Don't give up on Clemens? Don't sell short our WRs then, maybe they will be the ones to surprise. Obviously they see somethign in them that let them not address it right now. Or, they think the current philosophy will let them be adequate and address that position through other means or next year.

Let's not be downers on what could be a great turning point for the franchise. It may be a big downfall, but at least we get to give it a shot while not giving up anything that hurts our future, and get a highly touted QB.

I'm pumped.
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Old 04-26-2009, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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They obviously felt very strongly about the 2 guys that they got, which is exactly what you want. I'd rater get 2 guys you really like and truely feel are worth moving up for because they can help your team, than just saying that we got some guys and they may help in those areas. Get good players! You highly value them, go get them, don't just sit there and be content with guys who you aren't as high on.
The picks the Jets have been giving up are the ones that are used to build the foundations of their teams. Trading up for 2 guys every year might give you a Dustin Keller or a David Harris, but you'll miss out on all of the mid to late round steals that makes the draft so compelling and make teams go from the bottom of the barrel to the top of the heap in one year.

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They obviously felt very strongly about the 2 guys that they got

Fact remains, there was obviously some level of understanding between coaches and management that Clemens couldn't be the guy to lead us, or Sanchez really blew them away.

Obviously they see somethign in them that let them not address it right now.
I'm going to take a cheap shot. And I apologize in advance for it.

"Obviously the Jets know something the people up here don't".


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You can't look at it in a single year view, and you certainly can't take the view that one will pan out and the other will not.
I do look at it as a single year view. Because a lot of the better players the Jets have probably won't be Jets much longer. Faneca, who pretty much enabled the Jets OL to go from one of the worst to one of the best isn't getting any younger. Pro bowl running back Thomas Jones and one of the best pass rushing 3-4 ends in the league Shaun Ellis aren't getting any younger either. Lito Sheppard may not be a Jet more than this year although I'd hope he would be given the terms of the trade deal.

The way I see it, the Jets are poised to lose a lot of good players in the very near future. So there is a need to win now above the obvious one.

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Don't sell short our WRs then, maybe they will be the ones to surprise. Obviously they see somethign in them that let them not address it right now. Or, they think the current philosophy will let them be adequate and address that position through other means or next year.
That's great, if you're not dependent on those receivers. If Chansi Stuckey or Dave Clowney can play in the slot and show something that indicates that they deserved to go earlier than the 7th round. But they are going to be depended on and its never a good thing to depend on two unproven 7th round WR's for a QB drafted 5th overall.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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The picks the Jets have been giving up are the ones that are used to build the foundations of their teams. Trading up for 2 guys every year might give you a Dustin Keller or a David Harris, but you'll miss out on all of the mid to late round steals that makes the draft so compelling and make teams go from the bottom of the barrel to the top of the heap in one year.

I'm going to take a cheap shot. And I apologize in advance for it.

"Obviously the Jets know something the people up here don't".

I do look at it as a single year view. Because a lot of the better players the Jets have probably won't be Jets much longer. Faneca, who pretty much enabled the Jets OL to go from one of the worst to one of the best isn't getting any younger. Pro bowl running back Thomas Jones and one of the best pass rushing 3-4 ends in the league Shaun Ellis aren't getting any younger either. Lito Sheppard may not be a Jet more than this year although I'd hope he would be given the terms of the trade deal.

The way I see it, the Jets are poised to lose a lot of good players in the very near future. So there is a need to win now above the obvious one.

That's great, if you're not dependent on those receivers. If Chansi Stuckey or Dave Clowney can play in the slot and show something that indicates that they deserved to go earlier than the 7th round. But they are going to be depended on and its never a good thing to depend on two unproven 7th round WR's for a QB drafted 5th overall.
You make it sound like the later picks would have been sure thing steals. For each one that is a steal, there are a large number that don't do anything, or don't become anything special or see the field. I agree, its great to get a Cotchery, Washington, Rhodes, i totally agree, but those are exceptions, not the norm. It would be nice to have that opportunity to see if you could get one of those guys, but if you have a guy high on your board that you feel much more strongly can help your team, I don't know if i disagree with the thought of going to get him. I wish we had way more picks, and RB wasn't necessarily a position of need, totally agree, but as you mentioned, Jones is a guy who may be on the outs soon, and hopefully this helps the philosophy the Jets are building.

I don't know if that was a cheap shot at me, because it sure doesn't bother me. But yes, obviously the Jets know something that you probably don't. They also may have a different roadmap than you, which isn't necessarily good or bad, its different, but they are going with it. They know how the Jones talks are going and what their plan is, obviously a RB in this mold was valued higher. Who's right? I don't care. They went and got him and i hope badly he works out. I'll assume this follows their roadmap or addresses an issue they see occuring.

All teams are going to have turnover, and obviously we have some high valued and respected players that are in that group for the Jets. Greene can help the Jones transition. Fanaca will be around a few more years, so don't act like this is the end of the road to address this. Sheppard, if he pans out, will still be around. Hopefully Lowry can expand his game and enable us to have a smoother transition if Sheppard busts. 3-4 linemen are hard to find, and we obviously created a bigger hole with the Coleman move. There wasn't anyone in the 1st that would have helped. Aside from Brace (NT) or the Purdue DE, i'm not sure if there was many that would have quickly addressed this.
Fact remains, if you look at this in a 1 year scope, and needing to win this moment, it doesn't change the fact that we would have had an inexperienced and unproven QB in Clemens, and a WR coming off injury who we are assuming would have been the missing link on offense......getting a 'franchise' QB for a relatively cheap price isn't all that bad a thing. Bold and always risky, but something that is necessary to be able to build a strong franchise. I'd love for Clemens to start this year and let Sanchez grow, then in that time show he's more than capable. That wouldn't be a negative. However, if Clemens doesn't show that, at least we have someone learning and who has everything the position needs. If Sanchez beats him out and starts right away, then that also says Clemens wasn't the guy.

Favre was a win now approach that you are talking about, and as we all saw, it didn't get the job done.

I agree, its not great having to rely on unproven 7th round WRs. But Crabtree would still be a rookie coming off an injury. Clemens would still be a relative unknown. It would still be unproven to unproven, only we'd be going in with a QB that obviously hasn't drawn the faith of management or coaching staff. Plenty of what could have beens, and many different directions could hav ebeen taken. Hopefully the 2 players selected turn out good to ease any pain. There is no telling who would have been drafted if we had stayed, only lots of people being optimistic about any other player who pans out. Depth is required, but who knows how that depth would have turned out in the end - stud or out of the league.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Really briefly:

Wasn't Clowney a round 5 guy?

We still have time to address the offensive and defensive lines, absolutely. But if Kris Jenkins or any of the offensive lineman gets hurt this year, we're absolutely ******. Jenkins is understandable, but our offensive line depth is horrid. And that worries me big time with a young quarterback. Hopefully we can pick up a decent free agent or two or somebody around cut time, because it's pretty damn scary how thin we are there. At least next year's 5-techs should be sick, I already want one of them or a WR in round 1.

I still love Shonn Greene.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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You make it sound like the later picks would have been sure thing steals.

For each one that is a steal, there are a large number that don't do anything, or don't become anything special or see the field. I agree, its great to get a Cotchery, Washington, Rhodes, i totally agree, but those are exceptions, not the norm. It would be nice to have that opportunity to see if you could get one of those guys, but if you have a guy high on your board that you feel much more strongly can help your team, I don't know if i disagree with the thought of going to get him. I wish we had way more picks, and RB wasn't necessarily a position of need, totally agree, but as you mentioned, Jones is a guy who may be on the outs soon, and hopefully this helps the philosophy the Jets are building.
They're not sure thing steals, but its how teams fill out their rosters with decent depth. And yes, there are several players out of the 4th/5th rounds who come in and contribute every year. The players you listed are proof of that.

Right now the Jets have 3 very good players from the past 2 full drafts. And thats not a lot.


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I don't know if that was a cheap shot at me, because it sure doesn't bother me. But yes, obviously the Jets know something that you probably don't.
It was a reference to the comments from the Jets fans in the Jets draft blunders video. Obviously the Jets know something they don't. When they drafted Kyle Brady over Warren Sapp. And Ken O'Brien over Dan Marino.



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All teams are going to have turnover, and obviously we have some high valued and respected players that are in that group for the Jets. Greene can help the Jones transition. Fanaca will be around a few more years, so don't act like this is the end of the road to address this. Sheppard, if he pans out, will still be around. Hopefully Lowry can expand his game and enable us to have a smoother transition if Sheppard busts. 3-4 linemen are hard to find, and we obviously created a bigger hole with the Coleman move. There wasn't anyone in the 1st that would have helped. Aside from Brace (NT) or the Purdue DE, i'm not sure if there was many that would have quickly addressed this.
Faneca will be 33 this year. No offensive linemen, even the best last much past that.

If Lito Sheppard pans out, with the deal he has, he will still probably be released. Don't believe me? Just ask Ty Law who had 10 picks in one season the first time the Jets signed him, but was still released because of his mammoth contract.


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Fact remains, if you look at this in a 1 year scope, and needing to win this moment, it doesn't change the fact that we would have had an inexperienced and unproven QB in Clemens, and a WR coming off injury who we are assuming would have been the missing link on offense......getting a 'franchise' QB for a relatively cheap price isn't all that bad a thing.
1. "Potential franchise" QB. You mention that Clemens is inexperienced, but by definition, Sanchez is far more inexperienced having just been drafted. And having not played a down, Sanchez is far from being an ACTUAL franchise QB.

2. Drafting a "potential franchise quarterback" without the tools on the team for him to succeed throwing accomplishes what?

3. You're comfortable with a quarterback who has 16 college games under his belt throwing the ball to a bunch of 7th round/UDFA receivers? More than Michael Crabtree? Really?

People talk about QB who succeeded from day 1,

Roethlisberger had Hines Ward, Plaxico Burress and Antwaan Randle El from day 1. And then Heath Miller too after one year.

Matt Ryan had Roddy White and Michael Jenkins. Not that Jenkins has been a great receiver, but he hasn't been chopped liver either.

Carson Palmer from the day he began starting had Chad Johnson, Peter Warrick and Kelly Washington. And then T.J. Houshmandzadeh who earned his spot after developing as an NFL WR for 3 years. And then Chris Henry as well.


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But Crabtree would still be a rookie coming off an injury. Clemens would still be a relative unknown. It would still be unproven to unproven, only we'd be going in with a QB that obviously hasn't drawn the faith of management or coaching staff. Plenty of what could have beens, and many different directions could hav ebeen taken. Hopefully the 2 players selected turn out good to ease any pain. There is no telling who would have been drafted if we had stayed, only lots of people being optimistic about any other player who pans out. Depth is required, but who knows how that depth would have turned out in the end - stud or out of the league.
This seems kind of like an argument why the Jets should wash their hands of the draft completely. "Well they're all unproven, so why bother?"

After the draft history the Jets have had, there's no way I would look at who they've taken and say "they must know what they're doing" no matter what. They have 3 good players from the past 2 drafts.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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I'll be honest. I'd love to have a Patriots type situation where you get a deep draft class with various types of players with lots of talent. I'm not huge on the Greene trade up, but i am on the Sanchez one. I would have loved to have had those picks for depth, that would have been my preference. I'm just trying to get a grip on what actually went down and assume that there is a master plan - basically looking on the bright side....
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I'll be honest. I'd love to have a Patriots type situation where you get a deep draft class with various types of players with lots of talent. I'm not huge on the Greene trade up, but i am on the Sanchez one. I would have loved to have had those picks for depth, that would have been my preference. I'm just trying to get a grip on what actually went down and assume that there is a master plan - basically looking on the bright side....

QB - Mark Sanchez - Kellen Clemens - Erik Ainge

RB - Thomas Jones - Leon Washington - Shonn Greene

FB - Tony Richardson

WR - Jerricho Cotchery - Chansi Stuckey - Dave Clowney - Brad Smith - Marcus Henry?

TE - Dustin Keller - James Dearth

LT - D'Brickashaw Ferguson - Wayne Hunter

LG - Alan Faneca - Stanley Daniels

C - Nick Mangold

RG - Brandon Moore, Robert Turner

RT - Damien Woody, Mike Kracalik

There's the offense.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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crickett, we also got kris jenkins in last year's draft, and also got shepphard with the help of this year's 5th rounder.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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QB - Mark Sanchez - Kellen Clemens - Erik Ainge

RB - Thomas Jones - Leon Washington - Shonn Greene

FB - Tony Richardson

WR - Jerricho Cotchery - Chansi Stuckey - Dave Clowney - Brad Smith - Marcus Henry?

TE - Dustin Keller - James Dearth

LT - D'Brickashaw Ferguson - Wayne Hunter

LG - Alan Faneca - Stanley Daniels

C - Nick Mangold

RG - Brandon Moore, Robert Turner

RT - Damien Woody, Mike Kracalik

There's the offense.
Cool, thanks for pointing that out for me......

I see your point, but this is a chicken and the egg thing. Does the WR make the QB, or does a QB make a WR? Back and forth back and forth. You don't pass on a QB because you don't have that WR. You say Sanchez has less experience than Clemens, but the same could be said about Crabtree to the current WRs.

I see where you are coming from on a lot of things and can tell you really wanted Crabtree, but i'll try to see the bright side of getting a new QB and be hopeful. It is a lot more happy on this side.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Wallace Wright probably works his way in at WR. That position concerns me, but TE and the offensive line concern me more. Keller is basically a WR as far as I'm concerned, so if you consider him our #2 target things are at least a little better there, and both Clowney and Stuckey have a little potential. It's not ideal, but we can make it work there and get guys in future years. We're going to build around Sanchez at this point, so we have time. But if we don't keep whoever is behind center protected that will be a major problem, and we literally have nothing at tight end. An injury anywhere on the OL causes major issues. I still think there will be some signings of backup types who can contribute if necessary, otherwise all of these trades are setting us up to be in major trouble if there are injuries this year (especially trying to develop a young QB), and the FO has to know that.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Great Jonathan Vilma View Post
Cool, thanks for pointing that out for me......

I see your point, but this is a chicken and the egg thing. Does the WR make the QB, or does a QB make a WR? Back and forth back and forth. You don't pass on a QB because you don't have that WR.
But if you don't have that WR for the QB to throw to, whats to stop them from needing that QB in 2012?

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Wallace Wright probably works his way in at WR.
Wallace Wright is a free agent. He's an RFA, but with no tender, there isn't any restriction, and he might as well be a UFA.
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Old 04-26-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Sammie Lee Hill got taken with out 4th rounder. That hurts.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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I liked moving up for Sanchez but not so much for Greene at this point. May work out but I dont want to lose depth.

As far as trading up, im ok with trading up for a potential franchise QB but to trade up from 17 to 5 to draft a WR (when we have no QB) coming off an injury is a huge risk. As much as Crabtree may become great that would be hard to swallow. Its a crap shoot not matter how you slice it, but I think the went the right way by finding a franchise QB and building around him, not the other way around.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Sammie Lee Hill got taken with out 4th rounder. That hurts.
I personally dont know much about him but all of the reports that I have read aren't too complimentary on him. Scott even said he is late round or FA.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Wallace Wright is a free agent. He's an RFA, but with no tender, there isn't any restriction, and he might as well be a UFA.
Interesting, good to know. My bad there.

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Sammie Lee Hill got taken with out 4th rounder. That hurts.
:(

Shocked Vaughn Martin got taken in the fourth. Thought for sure we'd have a shot at him in the sixth after the trade if Rex wanted him.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Chip Vaughn you mean?
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Well I guess we need linemen. I expect us to be very busy in the UDFA market.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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His draft profile.

Height: 6-47/8 | Weight: 316 | 40-Time: 5.26
Matt Slauson | Nebraska Cornhuskers
Official Bio

Stars
Strengths:
Decent athlete...Very good size with a large frame and big hands...Is stout at the point...Solid range and holds his own in space...Fantastic motor...Good awareness...Is tough and nasty...Durable...Experienced.

Weaknesses:
Has short arms...Is not real strong or powerful...Lacks a violent initial punch...Gets caught leaning...Doesn't always use proper leverage...Not a dominating run blocker...Struggles to recover when beat...Upside???

Notes:
Spent one season at Air Force Prep School (CO) before joining the Cornhuskers...Played extensively as a true freshman in 2005 and even earned three starts at right tackle...Starter at right tackle in 2006 but was limited by an ankle injury down the stretch...Started 8 games at right guard in 2007...Started all 13 games at right guard in 2008 and was named 2nd Team All-Big 12...Cited for criminal mischief in 2007 after allegedly vandalizing a couple of cars...Possesses a good mix of physical tools and intangibles...Best fit might come in a zone blocking scheme...His versatility could help him earn a roster spot as a backup.

__________________________________________________ _




Sounds like a replacement for Jonathan Goodwin.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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His draft profile.

Height: 6-47/8 | Weight: 316 | 40-Time: 5.26
Matt Slauson | Nebraska Cornhuskers
Official Bio
Callahan must know him from Nebraska
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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I see your point, but this is a chicken and the egg thing. Does the WR make the QB, or does a QB make a WR? Back and forth back and forth. You don't pass on a QB because you don't have that WR. You say Sanchez has less experience than Clemens, but the same could be said about Crabtree to the current WRs.
I'd say its a bit of both.

Well, I'll ask. What is the point of a franchise QB if you have nobody to throw to? If Sanchez hands the ball off 40 times a game to the Jets three headed monster at RB, and passes for, lets say 63% completion percentage for 2,200 yards for the next two years because his only real WR is Jerricho Cotchery, will it be worth it?

Having Randy Moss and Chris Carter made Daunte Culpepper one of the best QB's in the league. Having Nate Burleson, Travis Taylor and Troy Williamson made him one of the worst.

With David Patten, Troy Brown and David Givens, Tom Brady was a pro bowl QB. With Randy Moss, Donte Stallworth and Wes Welker, he was a record setting QB.

But on the flip side, having T.J. Whosyomomma and Chad OchoCinco did nothing for Ryan Fitzpatrick.

I don't look at it as (at least on offense) as a player being the master of his own destiny. In Arizona, Thomas Jones was horrible, in Tampa Bay, he was decent. In Chicago, he was very good. Here, he wasn't very good behind Adrian Clarke and Anthony Clement, but replace them with Alan Faneca and Damien Woody and Thomas Jones was [b]awesome[b].

I look at it the same way with Mark Sanchez and Chansi Stuckey and Dave Clowney.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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Obviously great WRs can make a QB look better, but if the QB is destined to be good you'll see that without all the star WRs. But first and foremost, unless the guy's Calvin Johnson, you need to go franchise QB over franchise WR. And like that AlexDown always says, he's not on our team for just a year. We can get a first round WR (or even Braylon) next year. Plus, you just have to realize the philosophy Rex is coming from. He just came from a Ravens team that had no real receiving option beyond an aging Mason. So let's just see how it works.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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Chip Vaughn you mean?
Nope I meant Martin, the dude from Western Ontario with the sick measurables. Thought he could have been a developmental nose guy, but I'm pretty sure the Chargers took him in the fourth unless I misread.

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Callahan must know him from Nebraska
Yeah the team website has an article, apparently he came to Nebraska specifically to play for Callahan so he's really psyched to be a Jet. Had some good explosion numbers (vertical, broad jump) at the combine and he's actually worked on snapping and stuff to be able to play center in a pinch, so it seems like he's versatile and a hard worker.

Definitely will have a shot to do some things with us because we're so thin there and he'll have a great opportunity to learn behind Faneca and maybe start down the road, but definitely get backup time. It'll be interesting to see what UDFA's we sign and if Slauson plays at center at all.


Also with the whole QB vs. WR's argument, I think we were unproven in both regards. QB's help WR's and WR's help QB's, there's no real other way around it. We have some weapons in the passing game, and apparently ultimately decided that a run attack and those options would be enough for the moment. Probably came down to us having Sanchez graded very, very high and even higher than Crabtree. We'll see how it plays out and if WR's step up, but at this point all we can do is hope for the best.

I do think it's really a chicken or egg argument, although run game and OL are huge for both as was the case with Fitzpatrick. Yeah he sucked with great WR's, but their line and run game were balls last year. Anybody would've struggled, even Palmer wasn't playing well.



EDIT:

We're talking to Plax? That could be...interesting. Doubt anything comes of it though.

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Old 04-26-2009, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Ive been hearing that the Jets will sign 15 UDFA's.
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