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Old 05-18-2009, 11:27 PM    (permalink
parrish_lemar24DBSkins
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Default TE Vernon Davis - Pro Bowler??

I didn't get a chance to see that many 49er games the last few years, but I was shocked when Vernon Davis didn't blow up in the league the last 3 years.
In college, he was a scary player; faster than all the WRs, ( except DHB!!), and when he caught the ball, it took at least 4 guys to bring him down. Coach Friegen used to tell him it's no shame to go down when 4 or five guys are trying to tackle you, to prevent being injured, but Davis wasn't having it.

Now, I realize in SF he had Alex Smith throwing him the ball most the time, but a TE is usually a safety valve for a young QB, and I can't believe Davis had trouble getting open in coverage, and I can't imagine he was double-teamed much since he hasn't proven he's a threat in the passing game.

SO for those who have seen him play more than 2 games, is Davis overrated, still has potential, or a bust in the making?
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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He has potential, but I'm just not sure he'll ever realize it, or ever fulfill it.

The man has amazing physical abilities and is a wide receiver in a tight ends body, but Mike Martz had him primarily blocking, while Delani Walker seemed to be more of a pass catching option last year. And with the 49ers moving to more a power running scheme, I don't know if Davis will ever get the catches he needs to make an impact. Especially with Crabtree, Morgan, and company outside too.

I guess time will tell.
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Him living up to his potential is one thing, there's also the Pro Bowl politics. The other guys in the conference.

As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in. Chris Cooley is a Pro Bowl TE. And now Kellen Winslow is in Tampa. Jeremy Shockey has a year under his belt and might be as healthy as he can be, if he puts up really good numbers he could very well get the nod.

Davis needs a breakout season to help him get the cred for next year, maybe. But him being very productive and effective in and of itself is more important than the Pro Bowl nod. If he plays well, you'd hope that sort of thing works itself out and recognition deserved is obtained, although it hasn't yet with Dallas Clark of the Colts.
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Old 05-18-2009, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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His physical potential is unmatched....but he needs to get some better work ethic and a better attitude to make something of himself in the league. There are plenty of athletes out there that will actually work hard.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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I hear that as a rookie he was better than Antonio Gates.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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He won't be anything better than average.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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Not on the Niners. I could see him catching on somewhere else though..
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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I remember when he came out of Maryland everyone was worried about whether or not he could block. Well.. He certainly can do that.

If you were to tell me he would be this kind of blocker this early in his career I would have said he's the best TE in the game. I have no idea what the problem is in San Francisco, but someone deserves some blame on that coaching staff.

I don't get to see too many Niner games, but he's being under utilized and not coached good enough, clearly. I refuse to believe it's his work ethic, because he went from not understanding how to block to being a complete monster.

He's either going to need a new team to fill his potential or he's going to get it done this year under Singletary. We will see.

I'm still buying the potential. Call me delusional if you may..
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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John Carlson will go to a pro bowl before Vernon Davis.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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John Carlson will go to a pro bowl before Vernon Davis.
It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end. Not to take anything away from Carlson, he's a good player. I just don't think he's head over heels better than Vernon Davis.

Really, Davis has been a victim of under-utilization and poor quarterback play his entire tenure in San Francisco. When he's given the opportunity to shine, he has shown he has the power to dominate. He does have his issues though. There have been reports of him being a prima donna type, and his hands aren't that great. But he can be a gamebreaker in this league. If he were on a team with a much stable quarterback situation, I'm sure he would have already made a Pro Bowl easily.

He's a little bit slimmer in training camp now and by the looks of what has been said and heart, Jimmy Raye does plan to use him more in the offense as a pass catching target and not just a blocker like Martz did. Shaun Hill has provided pretty decent quarterback play thus far, so that helps. If Hill is the starter and plays like he did last season for the eight games he started, then Davis may finally have a breakout season. It might be a little difficult though still since Morgan, Bruce, and Crabtree could take away looks from Davis' way.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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He's a little bit slimmer in training camp now and by the looks of what has been said and heart, Jimmy Raye does plan to use him more in the offense as a pass catching target and not just a blocker like Martz did. Shaun Hill has provided pretty decent quarterback play thus far, so that helps. If Hill is the starter and plays like he did last season for the eight games he started, then Davis may finally have a breakout season. It might be a little difficult though still since Morgan, Bruce, and Crabtree could take away looks from Davis' way.
You know you look at the kind of firepower the 9ers can bring to the table (I have big respect for Josh Morgan, and obviously Bruce, Crabtree, Davis and Gore are in there too.) and you have to wonder why they have such trust in Shaun Hill. The guy might pan out, but seriously they needed to try a little harder to bring somebody in.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:03 AM    (permalink
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It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end.
What?

Matt Hasselbeck only played in 7 games last year. Only 1 of Carlson's 5 TDs was from Hasselbeck, the other 4 were from Seneca Wallace and Charlie Frye.

Not sure why you're bringing up QB play. John Carlson put up better numbers as a rookie than Vernon Davis ever has with not much better of a QB.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Him living up to his potential is one thing, there's also the Pro Bowl politics. The other guys in the conference.

As long as Witten remains productive, the star on his helmet will get him voted in. Chris Cooley is a Pro Bowl TE. And now Kellen Winslow is in Tampa. Jeremy Shockey has a year under his belt and might be as healthy as he can be, if he puts up really good numbers he could very well get the nod.

Davis needs a breakout season to help him get the cred for next year, maybe. But him being very productive and effective in and of itself is more important than the Pro Bowl nod. If he plays well, you'd hope that sort of thing works itself out and recognition deserved is obtained, although it hasn't yet with Dallas Clark of the Colts.
The NFC has these tight ends:

Tony Gonzalez (how could you forget :(), Jason Witten, Kellen Winslow, Chris Cooley, Jeremy Shockey, John Carlson, Vernon Davis, Greg Olsen, and Brandon Pettigrew.

Damn thats loaded.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Vernon has struggled with injures his whole carrer until this season, and sadly it was the one season that the TE is not featured at all in the passing game. He is a tremendous blocker, and a much improved receiver. He had a terrific second half of the year last year and was even a pro bowl alternate. If he stays healthy this year he has no excuse not to do well since now he is back in an offense of which he is a perfect fit for.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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Here is why Vernon is not that great of a TE yet:

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Old 05-19-2009, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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I have a question then.

With Gonzo and Winslow out of the conference, is this the year Heath Miller could make the Pro-Bowl?
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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I have a question then.

With Gonzo and Winslow out of the conference, is this the year Heath Miller could make the Pro-Bowl?
Unless Zach Miller continues to shoulder the brunt of the Raiders' passing game. It will definitely be a guy named Miller.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:31 AM    (permalink
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Unless Zach Miller continues to shoulder the brunt of the Raiders' passing game. It will definitely be a guy named Miller.
They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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It would be because of Matt Hasselbeck, not because Carlson is necessarily a better tight end. Not to take anything away from Carlson, he's a good player. I just don't think he's head over heels better than Vernon Davis.

Huh?

Carlson had Seneca Wallace throwing to him for 8 games last year, and he was 9th in the NFL in yards by TE's with 627...Davis was 26th with 358. Carlson's rookie year was better than any season Davis has had.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:37 AM    (permalink
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They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?
Nope they only take two, Winslow twiddled his thumbs. Daniels won't make it he is not that well regarded for some reason, I can't figure out why myself. Scheffler, well his TE game isn't complete, but that's never stopped the voters before so who knows. I think it will definitely be a Miller opposite Gates. Heath deserves it and Zach will probably have production on his side. Interesting race.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?
Dallas Clark, Owen Daniels, Antonio Gates, Dustin Keller, Zach Miller would be my top 5.

How Scheffler makes yours top 5 confuses me. He was 11th in receptions & 6th in yards for AFC Tight Ends. Also, his situation seemingly got worse (Cutler gone, Moreno picked up to take snaps away from the entire Broncos receiving corp.).

Anyways, Vernon Davis seems a bit immature, but I'm sure at some point in his future he mature enough to do some good for a team. Hopefully for the 49ers it happens soon.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:44 AM    (permalink
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They take 3 right?

I understand it's mostly receiving stats (I almost hope Miller doesn't make it because it's a contract year but..)

Gonzalez, Winslow, Gates I believe was the starting trio last year.


Gonzo/Winslow moved to NFC..

Gates, Daniels, Miller, Keller, Scheffler?
Bo Scaife was really good last year and could push for a spot in the pro bowl this year if he puts up similar numbers even though I don't expect him to with all the new firepower the Titans have.

Oh and the probowl only takes two tight ends per team.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:55 AM    (permalink
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Dallas Clark probably ends the discussion, in retrospect. It's time.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:10 AM    (permalink
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I remember when he came out of Maryland everyone was worried about whether or not he could block. Well.. He certainly can do that.

If you were to tell me he would be this kind of blocker this early in his career I would have said he's the best TE in the game. I have no idea what the problem is in San Francisco, but someone deserves some blame on that coaching staff.

I don't get to see too many Niner games, but he's being under utilized and not coached good enough, clearly. I refuse to believe it's his work ethic, because he went from not understanding how to block to being a complete monster.

He's either going to need a new team to fill his potential or he's going to get it done this year under Singletary. We will see.

I'm still buying the potential. Call me delusional if you may..
I'm with this, it's not as if he is just a pure workout warrior, the guy was a heck of a player in college, and he developed his college weakness into a huge strength.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:47 AM    (permalink
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For all his athleticism, Davis just isn't a particularly smooth athlete and it shows in the passing game. He doesn't position his body very well and he doesn't catch the ball very well. However, if I had to make a list of the best blocking tight-ends in the league, he would place very near the top. Certainly, it doesn't justify his draft selection spot or his contract, and he's not a Pro-Bowl caliber player, but he's a solid player with some more room to grow (just not as much as some originally thought).
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