10/29/09 - Tennessee Turmoil

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by DoughBoy

This little comment grinds my gears also. We have sold out everygame for 11 years and are very popular with many fans in the surrounding states without pro football teams (alabama,kentucky,arkansas,virginia). Bud Adams is cheap but that doesn't mean he is lacking the funds to pull it off.

If only ticket sales were enough in today's NFL. The fact is they aren't enough to take a team out of the low revenue category. Buffalo sold out every home game and they are still a low revenue city and were forced to sell games to Toronto to try and get an increase because Toronto is a high revenue city. When Tennessee left Houston, outside revenue was a minor thing, today it is crucial and a deciding factor between franchises. A low revenue city can be successful, see Pittsburgh and Indy but they must have a top management team that can provide a consistent playoff and SB challengers otherwise they will quickly lose ground to the high revenue cities. That's life in all major sports today.

[TitanHope]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

While this is true, they played their 2 toughest opponents in their final 2 games after they had sowed up their playoff position. That moved the SOS from 32 to 26 after it didn't matter anymore. Like most teams that make it on a weak SOS whether 32 or 26, they were a one an out team against a team with a rookie QB.

This year their SOS is currently .553 which goes a long way toward their 0-6 record. They aren't facing a large # of pushovers early this season.

That's completely false, and is distorting the facts to back up your arguments. The Pittsburgh game clinched homefield advantage for them, in a game that they weren't favored in. In what universe does that game not matter? They had also won @ Baltimore, Minnesota, and Indianapolis - all playoff teams. And you choose to leave out the fact that Tennessee actually beating their opponents knocks down their SOS by adding 13 losses to their opponents. If they lose, their SOS increases.

You've posted this incorrect data multiple times, and when called out on it, don't even give the correct information to skew the facts further. Just stop.

Originally Posted by Scott Wright

Saw something interesting in Bill Simmons new column today:

Apparently Jeff Fisher has only had six winning seasons in sixteen years as the Oilers / Titans coach. That blew my mind. Did anyone else realize this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...flpicks/091031

Bill Simmons did not just make fun of the Fish's stache! Harrumph! Harrumph I say!

Fisher's been the best coach in the history of the Titans/Oilers franchise. He's only had 6 winning seasons, but he's only had 4 losing seasons. His record is also 128-108, during which he led a team that transferred to a new city and played musical stadiums for a season or two.

Also, Fisher has only been a HC for 14 full seasons. He took over for Pardee for the last 6 games of the 1994 season. I think it'd be unfair to count his interim duties as a losing season, and I assume Simmons is already counting this season as Fish's 16th. So truthfully, it's 6 winning seasons in 14 complete seasons, with 4 8-8 seasons, and 4 losing seasons - two of those being 7-9 records.

Way to manipulate the facts, Bill Simmons. You're lucky your huge ass book can stop a bullet! ...J/K!

[dhp318]

Hey Scott,

Did you know there are young children born after October 6, 2009 that don't know you make mock drafts?

[Iamcanadian]

[quote=TitanHope;1861235]That's completely false, and is distorting the facts to back up your arguments. The Pittsburgh game clinched homefield advantage for them, in a game that they weren't favored in. In what universe does that game not matter? They had also won @ Baltimore, Minnesota, and Indianapolis - all playoff teams. And you choose to leave out the fact that Tennessee actually beating their opponents knocks down their SOS by adding 13 losses to their opponents. If they lose, their SOS increases.

You've posted this incorrect data multiple times, and when called out on it, don't even give the correct information to skew the facts further. Just stop.

It always amazes me how home fans see what they want to see. The Pittsburgh game was the second last game of the season and by then Tennessee had a lot of momentum going for the team. Emotion still plays a huge part in winning a football game and by game 15 after 12 wins, Tennessee was riding high in this area.
However some of their early victories were lucky in catching teams when they weren't at their top form. Minny was 1-3 when Tennessee played them and struggling to find their form. Baltimore had a rookie QB starting who wasn't close to reaching his form having beaten only 2 pitiful franchises in Cleveland and Cincy, and were about to lose 3 straight before their Rookie QB finally got hot and with some experience behind him began to be a much more steady QB. They caught Peyton early before his form really got going later in the season as he recovered from his surgery. Indy was 3-3 when they played Tennessee. After being 3-4, Peyton returned to form and put together 9 straight wins including beating Tennessee 23-0.
By your own words, Tennessee finished with a SOS ranked 26th in the league which only got that high because of the last 2 games they played that year after they had sowed up a playoff position with 12 wins.
If you cannot accept that Tennessee's great year had a lot to do with their schedule then why do they stink so bad this year with a much tougher schedule, just a coincidence I guess. I think it just bugs you that Tennessee had a great season because they had an easy schedule and never were as talented as their 13 wins suggested. I give them full credit for using their weak schedule to have a great year, it doesn't always work that way for a lot of teams, but the fact remains that teams who lack a franchise QB rarely win consistently unless they draw a weak schedule, and usually drop back to form the following year as Tennessee has done. Its not all that unusual, in fact it is a constant in the NFL and explains why many team go through this process.
I believe you attacked this hypothesis before the season started when I predicted Tennessee's demise from the playoffs and VY's return to the starting position by mid season when almost everybody had written him off. I think the facts speak for themselves that at least on this occasion I was right on but I don't expect you to believe it no matter what facts I put forward.

[TitanHope]

Originally Posted by Iamcanadian

It always amazes me how home fans see what they want to see. The Pittsburgh game was the second last game of the season and by then Tennessee had a lot of momentum going for the team. Emotion still plays a huge part in winning a football game and by game 15 after 12 wins, Tennessee was riding high in this area.

However some of their early victories were lucky in catching teams when they weren't at their top form. Minny was 1-3 when Tennessee played them and struggling to find their form. Baltimore had a rookie QB starting who wasn't close to reaching his form having beaten only 2 pitiful franchises in Cleveland and Cincy, and were about to lose 3 straight before their Rookie QB finally got hot and with some experience behind him began to be a much more steady QB. They caught Peyton early before his form really got going later in the season as he recovered from his surgery. Indy was 3-3 when they played Tennessee. After being 3-4, Peyton returned to form and put together 9 straight wins including beating Tennessee 23-0.

By your own words, Tennessee finished with a SOS ranked 26th in the league which only got that high because of the last 2 games they played that year after they had sowed up a playoff position with 12 wins.

If you cannot accept that Tennessee's great year had a lot to do with their schedule then why do they stink so bad this year with a much tougher schedule, just a coincidence I guess. I think it just bugs you that Tennessee had a great season because they had an easy schedule and never were as talented as their 13 wins suggested. I give them full credit for using their weak schedule to have a great year, it doesn't always work that way for a lot of teams, but the fact remains that teams who lack a franchise QB rarely win consistently unless they draw a weak schedule, and usually drop back to form the following year as Tennessee has done. Its not all that unusual, in fact it is a constant in the NFL and explains why many team go through this process.

I believe you attacked this hypothesis before the season started when I predicted Tennessee's demise from the playoffs and VY's return to the starting position by mid season when almost everybody had written him off. I think the facts speak for themselves that at least on this occasion I was right on but I don't expect you to believe it no matter what facts I put forward.

The issue I have with your opinion is because you're misrepresenting the facts to support your own theory. You've posted multiple times that Tennessee had the easiest schedule in the NFL last year, when apparently it was only through 14 games. You left the last two games out, and presented the incorrect SOS.

The Titans lost to the Houston Texans the week before the Pittsburgh game. Tennessee was without Albert Haynesworth and Kyle Vanden Bosch for the game. If anything, the momentum was lower than ever after coming off a loss to a division rival who you've beaten 5 games in a row before then, losing your best player in AH, and losing a team captain in KVB. Most thought Pittsburgh would win that game. And if the Titans lose that game, then they're probably the #2 Seed in the Playoffs. Actually, the WK 17 game against Indy would decide the division, so the Titans would go from #1 Seed to #5 Seed. To try to disqualify that game, when it was one of the most important games of the season, is an injustice.

There are several reasons the Titans are far worse this year:

-Lost their Defensive Coordinator.
-Lost their best player in Albert Haynesworth.
-Injuries.
-Inexperienced depth.
-Horrendous special teams.
-Turnover margin.
-Inferior QB play.

I attacked your hypothesis before because you stated then that the Titans SOS was last in the NFL, and I corrected you. I also thought it faulty to base your opinion predominantly on SOS, since record doesn't always show how good or competitive a team is. I thought it was another case of a NFLDC'er thinking they've found a grain of insight and clinging hopelessly onto it because they felt proud of themselves for thinking abstractly, despite most people thinking it was faulty logic. I wasn't the only one who looked at your SOS theory as "Huh?" and other non-Titans posters disagreed with you as well.

Your conclusion was completely correct. I'm not disagreeing with you there. What I'm disagreeing with is the process of how you reached that conclusion. Several posters thought the Titans would take a step backwards this year. As an example, BigBlueDefense thought they would. I asked him why, and he said because it's difficult to win consistently without a franchise QB and relying on great DEF and a potent running game for victories. He was completely right, and I've acknowledged that several times - Kerry Collins has hurt the Titans with his inopportune turnovers and lack of 3rd down efficiency. Meanwhile, a team like Indianopolis has kept on winning despite coaching changes, injuries, etc. because of Peyton Manning at QB. You hinted this in your post, and it's something I agree with.

I don't mind anyone having a negative opinion over my favorite team, it's players, or it's stats. But in this case, I think you're spinning the facts towards your favor, and using non-factual opinion to do so. Bottom line is that teams don't go 13-3 because of "luck." Yes, they get fortunate, but the Titans didn't squeak out wins last year - they dominated in their wins. Only 4 wins were by a margin of less than double-digits. They did get a favorable schedule, but they rolled through it as good teams do.

[Iamcanadian]

Originally Posted by TitanHope

The issue I have with your opinion is because you're misrepresenting the facts to support your own theory. You've posted multiple times that Tennessee had the easiest schedule in the NFL last year, when apparently it was only through 14 games. You left the last two games out, and presented the incorrect SOS.

The Titans lost to the Houston Texans the week before the Pittsburgh game. Tennessee was without Albert Haynesworth and Kyle Vanden Bosch for the game. If anything, the momentum was lower than ever after coming off a loss to a division rival who you've beaten 5 games in a row before then, losing your best player in AH, and losing a team captain in KVB. Most thought Pittsburgh would win that game. And if the Titans lose that game, then they're probably the #2 Seed in the Playoffs. Actually, the WK 17 game against Indy would decide the division, so the Titans would go from #1 Seed to #5 Seed. To try to disqualify that game, when it was one of the most important games of the season, is an injustice.

Tennessee losing to Houston the week before the Pittsburgh game is not all that unusual a situation. The Pittsburgh game was the biggest game of the season for Tennessee so it isn't all that unusual to catch a team looking ahead to a future big game and not getting up for their current opponent. This situation often brings about upsets.

There are several reasons the Titans are far worse this year:

-Lost their Defensive Coordinator.
-Lost their best player in Albert Haynesworth.
-Injuries.
-Inexperienced depth.
-Horrendous special teams.
-Turnover margin.
-Inferior QB play.

I agree that these are all valid points but as you mentioned, inferior QB play is a fairly consistent factor in a team falling from grace the year following a playoff run especially if they draw a harder schedule and your right that the Peyton's of the league don't seem to be bothered by any factors unless they themselves get injured.

I attacked your hypothesis before because you stated then that the Titans SOS was last in the NFL, and I corrected you. I also thought it faulty to base your opinion predominantly on SOS, since record doesn't always show how good or competitive a team is. I thought it was another case of a NFLDC'er thinking they've found a grain of insight and clinging hopelessly onto it because they felt proud of themselves for thinking abstractly, despite most people thinking it was faulty logic. I wasn't the only one who looked at your SOS theory as "Huh?" and other non-Titans posters disagreed with you as well.

Your conclusion was completely correct. I'm not disagreeing with you there. What I'm disagreeing with is the process of how you reached that conclusion. Several posters thought the Titans would take a step backwards this year. As an example, BigBlueDefense thought they would. I asked him why, and he said because it's difficult to win consistently without a franchise QB and relying on great DEF and a potent running game for victories. He was completely right, and I've acknowledged that several times - Kerry Collins has hurt the Titans with his inopportune turnovers and lack of 3rd down efficiency. Meanwhile, a team like Indianopolis has kept on winning despite coaching changes, injuries, etc. because of Peyton Manning at QB. You hinted this in your post, and it's something I agree with.

I don't mind anyone having a negative opinion over my favorite team, it's players, or it's stats. But in this case, I think you're spinning the facts towards your favor, and using non-factual opinion to do so. Bottom line is that teams don't go 13-3 because of "luck." Yes, they get fortunate, but the Titans didn't squeak out wins last year - they dominated in their wins. Only 4 wins were by a margin of less than double-digits. They did get a favorable schedule, but they rolled through it as good teams do.

As I said, I have absolutely nothing against Tennessee, I just thought they would be a perfect example of this theory in practice. I would say it about my own favourites if it happened to them and take a lot of flack from the team's fans.
I do agree that the theory alone is only a major factor in this scenario but other factors come into place along with it. A team with a weak schedule and, excuse my opinion, a weak QB, if they get off to an excellent start can gain momentum and begin to play above their overall talent level. Football, after all, is an emotional game and if players begin to believe they are good, will get far more emotionally up for games and win even more games than you would expect from just the QB/schedule factors. Tennessee just played excellent football as they reached this kind of momentum, unfortunately, it is my experience that this emotional high doesn't last long the following season if they begin to lose to tougher opponents. It can evaporate just as quickly as it appeared and send a team into a tailspin which I think is exactly what has happened to Tennessee this year. Next year should be an easier year no matter what schedule Tennessee draws and your team should return to more normal results.

I'm sorry if you took my thoughts on Tennessee as an attack against your team, I never meant it that way, all I was doing is sharing mine and other views of how the NFL operates.
I have consistently attacked posters who say VY is garbage even though he has won 19 out of 30 games, a 63% winning ratio which equates to 10 wins a season. I consistently point out that there are no facts which suggest VY isn't a winner and that stats don't mean a whole lot as long as your team is a winner. VY might not be pretty but at least so far, Tennessee wins a lot more than it loses with him at QB.
There is always a chance that the future will change my opinion but until there are facts that suggest VY isn't getting the job done, attacking him is basically opinion with zero facts to support that argument.
The fact is I don't hate any NFL team and am usually a lot harder on my favourite teams than worrying about other teams. When you are a fan of Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo because of my changing my residences over that last 30 years, you have plenty of ammunition for criticizing these teams without worrying about other team's problems. I may come across as being hugely opinionated, that is just my way but I can assure you I respect posters who can keep a discussion civil even if we totally disagree.