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Old 01-10-2010, 09:27 PM    (permalink
eagles6606
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Default Donovan Mccnab

Since a lot of people are calling for Donovan's head, I feel the need to defend him. First of all, let me explain what happenned in last nights game. As usual, the Eagles failed to establish the run. This allowed the Cowboys to keep their safeties deep and prevent Maclin and Jackson from getting downfield. The Cowboys cornerbacks completely shut down Jackson and controlled Maclin except for the or gimmick play. Mcnabb had no where to go with the ball. The Eagles line could not contain the pass rush and Donovan was running fir his life most of the game. This was partially because we had our backup center in, partially because Mccoy isn't very experienced in picking up the blitz, and mainly because the Cowboys pass rushers were just better than us. I'm not saying Donovan could not have played better, but it certainly wasn't his fault. A QB who is not as mobile as Mcnabb (specifically Kolb) would have gotten killed last night. Even if we had Peyton or Brady back there, I don't think we would have won the game.
Throughout his whole career, Donovan has been a winner. He has been successfull without good recievers. The one year when he had recievers, we went to the super bowl. In the regular season, Mcnabb has the third best TD to INT in the NFL of ALL TIME. That is very impressive. Yes Donovan is a streaky QB and sometimes he completely loses his accuracy. However when he gets into a bad streak, he doesn't turn the ball over and still gives his team
a chance to win. Let's compare Donovan to Kolb, who would replace
Mcnabb if he was traded. Donovan is a mobile QB, he is very good at escaping the rush, has a good deep ball, and is a proven winner. He is also a very streaky with his accuracy and could be a better leader. Kolb is theoretically more accurate, less streaky, and a better leader than Mcnabb. However he is no where near as good at escaping the pocket as Mcnabb and his arm/deep
ball is not as good. On a team based on speed (Maclin and Jackson) a QB who can throw deep and extend the play is essential. Kolb has a good future, but he is not in Mcnabb's league.
I understand people's frustration that we haven't won a super bowl, I am frustrated too. Replacing Donovan is not the answer. Instead the Eagles should improve the team they already have. Next year Jackson, Maclin, Celek, Peters, Justice, and Mccoy should all be better. We need to resign Weaver and Avant, get a monster left defensive end, a starting free safety, and an upgrade at strong side linebacker. This is the most talented offense the eagles have had in many years and it will only get better. Donovan is an experienced QB and a proven winner. With some growth and 2 or 3 significant upgrades on defense, the Eagles will be an extremely dangerous team.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Could not have said it better myself.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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i think what you guys are really missing on offense is a big possession reciever, Avant is good, but i dont feel like he is big enough to mismatch DB's.

On defense i really feel like besides MLB you guys are good. Mikell now has a year under his belt without Dawkins, a very hard loss, and At FS you have Macho Harris, who will likely look to add some weight in the offseason and has time to grow into the position.

Edit: McNabb and your OL was definitely dismantled by the loss of your center, but dallas seems to have your number, you ours, and us theirs.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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i think what you guys are really missing on offense is a big possession reciever, Avant is good, but i dont feel like he is big enough to mismatch DB's.

On defense i really feel like besides MLB you guys are good. Mikell now has a year under his belt without Dawkins, a very hard loss, and At FS you have Macho Harris, who will likely look to add some weight in the offseason and has time to grow into the position.
I said that at the time when they drafted Maclin that I thought he was not the best compliment to Jackson, but Eagles fans refused to acknowledge that and said he was plenty different enough. Well...

I agree with you.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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i think what you guys are really missing on offense is a big possession reciever, Avant is good, but i dont feel like he is big enough to mismatch DB's.

On defense i really feel like besides MLB you guys are good. Mikell now has a year under his belt without Dawkins, a very hard loss, and At FS you have Macho Harris, who will likely look to add some weight in the offseason and has time to grow into the position.
I have to disagree with you on that. Before his injury, Stewart Bradley was on his was to stardom. Hopefully he can recover and be healthy next year. Macho Harris is a tough and physical player. I admire that. However I don't think he has the physical skills to match up in coverage and has work to do on his tackling technique. The Eagles need a safety who can
match up in coverage. That will allow Mikell to be a playmaker against the run like he was last year. A really good possession reciever would help the offense, but it's not necessary. Avant is a pretty solid
slot guy and with Jackson, Maclin, Celek, and Mccoy we have plenty of
offenssive options. The eagles have some work to
do on their D.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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I have to disagree with you on that. Before his injury, Stewart Bradley was on his was to stardom. Hopefully he can recover and be healthy next year. Macho Harris is a tough and physical player. I admire that. However I don't think he has the physical skills to match up in coverage and has work to do on his tackling technique. The Eagles need a safety who can
match up in coverage. That will allow Mikell to be a playmaker against the run like he was last year. A really good possession reciever would help the offense, but it's not necessary. Avant is a pretty solid
slot guy and with Jackson, Maclin, Celek, and Mccoy we have plenty of
offenssive options. The eagles have some work to
do on their D.
This. This year was supposed to be Bradley's coming out party. Macho is a good depth player, but he's no starter. We need a FS and a LE to play opposite of Trent Cole along with some o-line depth.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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As much as I would love to blame this loss on McNabb alas I can not. The main bulk of the blame goes to Andy Reid and the offensive playcaller. I remember very clearly the words "If you fans in Philadelphia don't recognize it that is a run." It may have become a passing league but I mean come on. The Cowboys won this game on Defense getting pressure to the QB and having great coverage down the field.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Maclin is plenty different enough, the guy is 2.5" taller and 25 pounds heavier. You don't see DeSean doing a lot of things Maclin does and I already feel like Maclin is the more complete receiver.

And I'm saying that was McNabb's fault, sure you can say he was under pressure but Aaron Rodgers, Phillip Rivers and Matt Schaub all line up under much worse offensive lines, the problem was that McNabb let the pressure get to him and he was more concerned with the pass rush instead of keeping his eyes downfield, he has had happy feet for 2 1/2 weeks now and hasn't done anything good.

As a QB you aren't supposed to run for you're life, you're supposed to step up in the pocket and deliver a strike on a crossing pattern or something like that to slow the blitz down and all McNabb did was get wide eyed and dejected all game.

And I do think that if you put Peyton Manning behind this line that the Eagles would win this game because he does things the right way, he isn't rattled by pressure the way McNabb is.

And lets compare...

Kolb isn't as mobile as McNabb but he is more than capable of buying time and is more mobile than a majority of NFL QBs.
Kolb does have the arm strength to get the ball deep and he proved it this season.
Kolb is more accurate, his completion percentage of 64.7% in the two game he started is better than McNabb's career high.
Plus I'm going to go ahead and assume that Kolb has a better state of mind than McNabb seeing as you could regularly see Kolb pointing things out and trying to talk to McNabb during the first loss, that and he didn't seem affected by the blowout loss in New Orleans, he came out the next Sunday and was slinging it around more efficiently than ever.

I'd love to see what this offense can do as Jeremy Maclin, DeSean Jackson, Brent Celek, LeSean McCoy and others grow with Kevin Kolb at QB.

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Old 01-10-2010, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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As much as I would love to blame this loss on McNabb alas I can not. The main bulk of the blame goes to Andy Reid and the offensive playcaller. I remember very clearly the words "If you fans in Philadelphia don't recognize it that is a run." It may have become a passing league but I mean come on. The Cowboys won this game on Defense getting pressure to the QB and having great coverage down the field.
I completely agree. The offenssive playcalling is a big problem. Andy does a good job getting his players ready to play and does well as a GM. Though it is unlikely I would love to see a new offenssive coordinator. We could still keep the same general plays, but call them differently. If the Eagles could establish the run under center, then play action to Jackson, Maclin, and Celek would
be dangerous.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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I have to disagree with you on that. Before his injury, Stewart Bradley was on his was to stardom. Hopefully he can recover and be healthy next year. Macho Harris is a tough and physical player. I admire that. However I don't think he has the physical skills to match up in coverage and has work to do on his tackling technique. The Eagles need a safety who can
match up in coverage. That will allow Mikell to be a playmaker against the run like he was last year. A really good possession reciever would help the offense, but it's not necessary. Avant is a pretty solid
slot guy and with Jackson, Maclin, Celek, and Mccoy we have plenty of
offenssive options. The eagles have some work to
do on their D.
Oh my bad, forgot about Bradley, but now that i remember him, he has been injured two seasons in a row, right? Gaither didn't seem like you're scheme's prototypical MLB, but i was thinking more along the lines of adding a free agent, idk if they fit your scheme but Karlos Dansby or DeMeco Ryans?

Why i say this, is that you don't have a guy you can throw it up to and have a pretty good chance of getting the ball, or at least not letting the ball get picked, while he is covered. Plax was that for the giants, McNabb was amazing with TO when TO wasnt a headcase, i think if he gets that high catch % jump ball reciever he does a great deal better and your reciever corps has a whole other mismatch and a new dimension to the offense.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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No just one, Bradley was the up and coming star at MLB, the guy who was supposed to be the next elite guy according to some people who aren't even Eagles fans. I felt he was overrated because he wasn't great in coverage but the Eagles really missed him in run support where he was great and leadership where he was also an important factor.

So basically if the Eagles get Dezmon Briscoe they're unstoppable?

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Old 01-10-2010, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Oh my bad, forgot about Bradley, but now that i remember him, he has been injured two seasons in a row, right? Gaither didn't seem like you're scheme's prototypical MLB, but i was thinking more along the lines of adding a free agent, idk if they fit your scheme but Karlos Dansby or DeMeco Ryans?

Why i say this, is that you don't have a guy you can throw it up to and have a pretty good chance of getting the ball, or at least not letting the ball get picked, while he is covered. Plax was that for the giants, McNabb was amazing with TO when TO wasnt a headcase, i think if he gets that high catch % jump ball reciever he does a great deal better and your reciever corps has a whole other mismatch and a new dimension to the offense.
I think the Eagles would proobally be better hoping Bradley can stay healthy and then adding a strong side linebacker. Ryans or Dansby definately would be possibilities. Then Akeem Jordan and Will Weatherspoon could fight for the weak side. Jordan and Weatherspoon are good players, but better suited for the weak side.
I agree that a really good big reciever would add another dimension to this offense, but I think they have bigger needs especially on defense. Hopefully Celek can be that bigger option and then maybe we could add a bigger reciever to be the 4th guy at WR.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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Maclin is plenty different enough, the guy is 2.5" taller and 25 pounds heavier. You don't see DeSean doing a lot of things Maclin does and I already feel like Maclin is the more complete receiver.

And I'm saying that was McNabb's fault, sure you can say he was under pressure but Aaron Rodgers, Phillip Rivers and Matt Schaub all line up under much worse offensive lines, the problem was that McNabb let the pressure get to him and he was more concerned with the pass rush instead of keeping his eyes downfield, he has had happy feet for 2 1/2 weeks now and hasn't done anything good.

As a QB you aren't supposed to run for you're life, you're supposed to step up in the pocket and deliver a strike on a crossing pattern or something like that to slow the blitz down and all McNabb did was get wide eyed and dejected all game.

And I do think that if you put Peyton Manning behind this line that the Eagles would win this game because he does things the right way, he isn't rattled by pressure the way McNabb is.

And lets compare...

Kolb isn't as mobile as McNabb but he is more than capable of buying time and is more mobile than a majority of NFL QBs.
Kolb does have the arm strength to get the ball deep and he proved it this season.
Kolb is more accurate, his completion percentage of 64.7% in the two game he started is better than McNabb's career high.
Plus I'm going to go ahead and assume that Kolb has a better state of mind than McNabb seeing as you could regularly see Kolb pointing things out and trying to talk to McNabb during the first loss, that and he didn't seem affected by the blowout loss in New Orleans, he came out the next Sunday and was slinging it around more efficiently than ever.

I'd love to see what this offense can do as Jeremy Maclin, DeSean Jackson, Brent Celek, LeSean McCoy and others grow with Kevin Kolb at QB.
Ain't I suppose to be the McNabb hater.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:09 AM    (permalink
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I think they are almost at the point where you drafted Kolb. You have seen what he can do. Time to play him and let McNabb walk. It would fit with the M.O of the franchise who has let stars walk in the past. Not just as a cost cutting measure but because they assumed the younger guy would step in effectively(and for the most part been correct in that assumption)

When I entered this thread. I was ready to go in to bat for McNabb because I have always rated him as a QB but Thumper's post got me thinking. Not about whether Kolb really is better then McNabb. Just about the fact that he hasn't been "bad" in replacement of McNabb in the past and you had to have drafted him to replace McNabb. It's been what... three years now. Time to maybe give him the show and send McNabb out to pasture(too bad the team that would have traded multiple drafts for him now has a franchise signal caller)
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Another reason I prefer Kolb, like I said the Eagles offense was more consistent and flowing with Kolb in the game, he is trained to be a rhythm and timing QB and McNabb isn't, McNabb is the guy who makes big plays with supreme athletic ability, not with intelligence and a methodic offense. That is one thing I noticed as well and the offense isn't going to get better as McNabb ages because that supreme athletic ability is fading. Adam Caplan said that Andy Reid likes Kevin Kolb because of his intelligence, working in the film room and learning new schemes on offense.

Also just something from Tommy Lawlor's website:
Saturday's game:
Quote:
MCNABB - There were many problems on offense. My biggest frustration still lies with Donovan McNabb. He had chances to make plays. He didn't. On the opening drive he threw a sloppy pass to the left sideline. That was incomplete. We had a short run. On 3rd down he dropped back. There was some pressure, but he had a pocket to work with. Jason Avant stayed in to block on Ware initially and then released into the flat. He was WIDE open. W-I-D-E. McNabb could have lobbed him the ball and Avant would have caught it and easily gotten the 1st down. Instead Donnie locked onto Maclin over the middle. He didn't seem to notice the Dallas LB that almost caught the ball. Punt.

On the second series we had 2nd/10 from the Dallas 24. We had McNabb drop back to pass. He had 4.5 seconds before a defender was even near him. Finally at the 5.5 second mark he threw the ball into the ground. That drew the flag for grounding and moved us right back to the 10-yard line. That play set me off for a couple of reasons. First, Jason Avant was open on a deep crossing route. He had a DB trailing him. Donovan was looking in that vicinity, but either failed to see him or wanted to go elsewhere. Avant would have caught that ball around the 40. Even if the drive stalls there we've flipped the field. The second best thing would have been Donovan just realizing that the play wasn't going to work as hoped and getting rid of the ball. That way we have 3rd/10 and we're still at the 24. The worst thing to do is ground the ball. We're then faced with 3rd/24 and we're pinned back at our 10. Those yards hurt us on the exchange of possessions. Dallas got the ball near midfield to start their next drive.

We score a TD on the Vick play on the next possession. Dallas then scores again and has a 14-7 lead. We get the ball at the 20. A pass int. call on Dallas moves us to the 30. This is good. We run for 6 yards. This is good. Just move the chains and lets see what happens. Donovan drops back to pass. He has 2 good options on this play. Reggie Brown is open on a crossing route. Also, the middle of the field is open for him to run. Donovan decides to pass. He puts the ball behind Reggie and the ball falls incomplete. Dallas has an effective blitz on 3rd down and we have to punt. Give them credit on that play.

I understand Donovan's thinking on the 2nd down play. Reggie was open. The pass would have gained us at least 10 yards. My frustration lies in the lack of situational awareness. Dallas is playing lights out on offense. We're struggling to move the ball. Donovan had to know he wasn't throwing the ball well at that point. His passes were very erratic. Run to get the sure 1st down. That buys the defense some rest and every 1st down gives the offense a bit more confidence. I'm not saying this with hindsight. I was yelling for him to run on Saturday. Passes can be off target. They can be dropped. Go get the 1st down in the most sure way possible.

Finished the game 19-37 for 230 yards. He had 1 TD and 1 INT. McNabb did do a good job of buying time in the pocket. His protection had some breakdowns. He just couldn't throw a good pass early on. Started 1 of 6 for 2 yards. Calling that not good is being generous.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Holy jeez, this is getting juicy.

The Eagles young players look to KOLB for advice not McNabb

Rotoworld is reporting the same thing. The source is Howard Eskin who works on WIP and NBC Philadelphia, a fairly reliable source if you ask me.

If that is in fact true, it makes it so much easier to get rid of McNabb and it fully supports my idea that Kolb is going to be a better leader because he has more mental fortitude and won't choke clutch games away. The more you think about it, Kolb isn't just the next Feeley, Kolb is a leader, he is the first QB in NFL history to put up 300 yards in both of his first starts, he is more intelligent, has a better arm, is more agile etc. etc. Kolb is the real deal and I growing more and more anxious for the Kolb era to start maybe this story will force the Eagles hand and make them choose sooner, Kolb or McNabb? Because the Eagles are going to have to be very vague and say "Their both great leaders" and the Kolb story will continue on. They'll have to say "That is completely false" and insult Kolb or they'll have to admit it is true and make some BS excuse why and insult McNabb.

And this would also support the idea that dealing McNabb would help the offensive weapons grow because now the guy giving them the advice will be the one throwing them the ball. And if it is true, this is almost flat out saying that DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Brent Celek and LeSean McCoy respect Kolb more. And can you blame them? DeSean Jackson had 250 yards, 10 catches and 2 touchdowns with Kolb at QB and Brent Celek had 16 catches, 208 yards and 1 touchdown both of which were better than any two game stretch with McNabb at QB and after watching McNabb flail against the Cowboys the biggest rivals 3 games in a row what are they supposed to think?
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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I fail to believe Kolb will be better than McNabb will be going forward but this looks like a mini Favre-Rodgers situation where a team may have to go with the young calf over the old bull.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Kolb isn't that good though, Rodgers is a stud.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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Kolb isn't that good though, Rodgers is a stud.
We didn't know Rodgers was a stud until he was given a chance to start.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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The coaching staff knew he was a stud.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Point is, Rodgers played sparingly here and there, and he didn't even throw any picks, and had some nice games.

Kolb has had like a 1 nice game a bunch of WTF's. Before the Eagles lost in the playoffs, the reason they were going to beat the Saints was because "Kolb made them lose", now McNabb is the reason, haha.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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I find it amusing that people think Kevin Kolb is good because he threw for a lot of yards against a team that was basically playing prevent defense the whole game (and still threw three picks) and the Chiefs. Give me a ******* break. Kolb is garbage.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
Holy jeez, this is getting juicy.

The Eagles young players look to KOLB for advice not McNabb

Rotoworld is reporting the same thing. The source is Howard Eskin who works on WIP and NBC Philadelphia, a fairly reliable source if you ask me.

If that is in fact true, it makes it so much easier to get rid of McNabb and it fully supports my idea that Kolb is going to be a better leader because he has more mental fortitude and won't choke clutch games away. The more you think about it, Kolb isn't just the next Feeley, Kolb is a leader, he is the first QB in NFL history to put up 300 yards in both of his first starts, he is more intelligent, has a better arm, is more agile etc. etc. Kolb is the real deal and I growing more and more anxious for the Kolb era to start maybe this story will force the Eagles hand and make them choose sooner, Kolb or McNabb? Because the Eagles are going to have to be very vague and say "Their both great leaders" and the Kolb story will continue on. They'll have to say "That is completely false" and insult Kolb or they'll have to admit it is true and make some BS excuse why and insult McNabb.

And this would also support the idea that dealing McNabb would help the offensive weapons grow because now the guy giving them the advice will be the one throwing them the ball. And if it is true, this is almost flat out saying that DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Brent Celek and LeSean McCoy respect Kolb more. And can you blame them? DeSean Jackson had 250 yards, 10 catches and 2 touchdowns with Kolb at QB and Brent Celek had 16 catches, 208 yards and 1 touchdown both of which were better than any two game stretch with McNabb at QB and after watching McNabb flail against the Cowboys the biggest rivals 3 games in a row what are they supposed to think?
Do you truly believe the crap that just came out of your mouth or is this some kind of hoax?
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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If that is in fact true, it makes it so much easier to get rid of McNabb and it fully supports my idea that Kolb is going to be a better leader because he has more mental fortitude and won't choke clutch games away.
You've been able to judge this on two games?

Quote:
The more you think about it, Kolb isn't just the next Feeley, Kolb is a leader,
Holy God, you're serious.

Quote:
he is the first QB in NFL history to put up 300 yards in both of his first starts
51 attempts (3 picks including one pick-six), and...



Quote:
he is more intelligent, has a better arm, is more agile etc. etc.
...which brings me to my next point. DON'T DO CRACK!

Quote:
And this would also support the idea that dealing McNabb would help the offensive weapons grow because now the guy giving them the advice will be the one throwing them the ball. And if it is true, this is almost flat out saying that DeSean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin, Brent Celek and LeSean McCoy respect Kolb more. And can you blame them? DeSean Jackson had 250 yards, 10 catches and 2 touchdowns with Kolb at QB and Brent Celek had 16 catches, 208 yards and 1 touchdown both of which were better than any two game stretch with McNabb at QB and after watching McNabb flail against the Cowboys the biggest rivals 3 games in a row what are they supposed to think?
51 attempts (3 picks including one pick-six), and...



Seriously...arguably the dumbest post in this Eagles forum's history. You've outdone yourself.
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Old 01-18-2010, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Kolb is good though, he struggled when he wasn't prepared (Baltimore, Carolina) but he lit it up when he was able to practice with the starters for two weeks, he was the first ever QB to throw for 300 yards in hist first 2 starts, throwing for 718 yards in two starts and also throwing 4 touchdowns while hitting his target 64.5 percent of the time. He had one real interception and it was not seeing a LB in the flat on a quick pass, the other 2 came in the 4th quarter of the Saints game on hail mary passes.

Kolb is the total package, he has the arm strength, the accuracy, intelligence, leadership, footwork, toughness, pocket presence etc. etc. the only thing with him is that he came out of a really weird system and would've taken time to adjust to the NFL and it is 4 years later and he has learned the ins and outs of the NFL while learning the scheme. The only problem I can foresee is that he forces things, in earlier relief efforts for McNabb, Kolb would really try and gun throws into small windows and he paid the price throwing interceptions but in two games this season he showed that he is capable of overcoming this problem.

I know most of you will call homer on me, but just look at these scouting reports.

And since I know you all respect Scott Wright I will show you his:
Quote:
Strengths:
Arm strength is more than adequate and he has a very quick release...Strong and has a solid build...Protects the ball and has a good career TD / INT ratio...Durable and has a lot of experience...Solid athlete who can run a little and hurt defenses with his feet...Has everything you look for from an intangibles standpoint in terms of leadership, brains and work ethic...Extremely productive throughout his career.
Weaknesses:
Does not have the ideal height that you look for...Passing numbers were inflated by playing in a passing system...Accuracy is dodgy, especially on deep balls...Gets too many passes batted down at the line...Worked mostly out of the shotgun...Is going to have to learn how to run a pro style offense and read defenses...Didn't always play against top competition...Mechanics and throwing motion need work.
Boom, three years in the league and that stuff is all corrected, he now knows how to play in an NFL system and his mechanics are corrected.

And as for his deep ball, I'd say it is serviceable.
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