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Old 12-23-2009, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Wow, I didn't know that. Parcells would probably get him to bulk up to about 295ish. He's around 270 now.

Ratliff and Tuck on the same dline in any scheme would be beastly. 4-3 line, 3-4 line, doesn't matter. That would be ridiculous.

Imagine lining up those 2 on the same side of the dline and stunting them? Who do you block?

Im actually surprised Dallas doesn't do that with Ware and Ratliff in 4 man nickel fronts now that I think of it.

Yea I wish I could find that link, you guys took him before we could get a chance, but I definately remember reading how impressed he was with Tuck and wanted him to be a base DE and pass rushing DT on passing downs. Scouts Inc even redid that draft for us in 2008 and since Ware went #2 in the redone draft they gave us Tuck at #11 actually. Tuck is really versatile so he'd probably only have to adjust his weight a little here or there to make the switch.



We try to get Ratliff in those positions too, but people have started to double him alot more then usual, Ware just moves around so much from side to side so you'll see some stunting with him but he is always on the move.


Sintim is the only guy other then Tuck I would love to see in a 3-4, he's looked great for you guys as is, but I think he'd be a monster OLB too. We have the same arguments in our forum too though about possibly going to the 4-3, thing is you always have to 'assume' certain guys can make the change without problems and you just never know. I'd hate to see Osi end up like Kampman, losing all his trade value and being a non-factor in a new defense.
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Old 12-23-2009, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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Yea I wish I could find that link, you guys took him before we could get a chance, but I definately remember reading how impressed he was with Tuck and wanted him to be a base DE and pass rushing DT on passing downs. Scouts Inc even redid that draft for us in 2008 and since Ware went #2 in the redone draft they gave us Tuck at #11 actually. Tuck is really versatile so he'd probably only have to adjust his weight a little here or there to make the switch.



We try to get Ratliff in those positions too, but people have started to double him alot more then usual, Ware just moves around so much from side to side so you'll see some stunting with him but he is always on the move.


Sintim is the only guy other then Tuck I would love to see in a 3-4, he's looked great for you guys as is, but I think he'd be a monster OLB too. We have the same arguments in our forum too though about possibly going to the 4-3, thing is you always have to 'assume' certain guys can make the change without problems and you just never know. I'd hate to see Osi end up like Kampman, losing all his trade value and being a non-factor in a new defense.
I think Sintim would be very Woodley-esque in a 3-4. I don't know if he'll realize his true potential in our 4-3. So far though, he's looked pretty good even though he's not being used to his maximal ability.

Yeah, I was one of the advocates of you guys going to a 4-3 :)

I really wouldn't mind a 3-4 in NY. We all know I love the 34 front. Our best base would be a 4-3 base with a Spags like coordinator, but if we can land a 3-4 guy who brings pressure, I rather have that then a Bill Sheridan.

I don't think our front 7 would need as big of an overhaul as ppl think it would.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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I don't see Tuck as a 34 DE. If anything he would have to get moved to LB if at all possible. But I am interested in what our next system will be.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Tuck can play End in a Phillips 3-4, which is a 1 gap scheme. Not in a traditional 2 gap scheme though.


If Javhid Best falls to the 2nd round, I would give him serious consideration. I like Best. He'd make a great spread offense back. And we're becoming more of a 3 WR offense nowadays. We could use another back in that mold.
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Old 01-05-2010, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Tuck can play End in a Phillips 3-4, which is a 1 gap scheme. Not in a traditional 2 gap scheme though.


If Javhid Best falls to the 2nd round, I would give him serious consideration. I like Best. He'd make a great spread offense back. And we're becoming more of a 3 WR offense nowadays. We could use another back in that mold.
Could he play in Phillips scheme? Yes. Will he be nearly as effective as a 4-3 DE? I doubt it, personally. Seems like a waste to take such a versatile and unique player in Tuck and force him to adjust to a different scheme.

I'm with you for Best though. I love him. Only thing that scares me is his size and injury issues. Still, has a scat back and member for a three headed monster with Bradshaw/Jacobs/Best I think he'd be able to stay healthy.

The question is would we utilize him properly? Depends who our OC is if Gilbride goes to coach the Raiders.

Something tells me after Best runs the 40 he won't be lasting until the second round, even with injury concerns. He is going to destroy the 40 considering he's a track star too.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:30 PM    (permalink
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Could he play in Phillips scheme? Yes. Will he be nearly as effective as a 4-3 DE? I doubt it, personally. Seems like a waste to take such a versatile and unique player in Tuck and force him to adjust to a different scheme.

I'm with you for Best though. I love him. Only thing that scares me is his size and injury issues. Still, has a scat back and member for a three headed monster with Bradshaw/Jacobs/Best I think he'd be able to stay healthy.

The question is would we utilize him properly? Depends who our OC is if Gilbride goes to coach the Raiders.

Something tells me after Best runs the 40 he won't be lasting until the second round, even with injury concerns. He is going to destroy the 40 considering he's a track star too.
I think Tuck could thrive in that scheme. Phillips is great at getting the most out of all his front 7 guys. Its actually always been his secondary that he's had trouble with.

Look at Jay Ratliff. The guy is an absolute monster, and is waaay out of position as a 3-4 NT. But look at how Phillips puts him in positions to make huge plays and dominate.

He would do the same thing for Tuck.

I could see Best as a late 1st, possibly 2nd round guy. I don't know if we're going to have two 1st round RBs this year. And if we do, will they both be scatbacks?

Best is going to come in at around 190 lbs or maybe 200 if he packs on weight. He'll run a 4.3 though. I guess we'll wait and see what his deal is. I like Spiller too. But both those guys are probably going to different teams, bc we have more pressing needs.

I wouldn't mind the selections if they were made though.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Was gonna post this anyway, but since we're on RB's here, seems appropriate, but I am STOKED for Andre Brown next year. Let's not forget about him. I think he can really help us out and be a very nice addition to our O next year.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'm kind of upset with our Travis Beckum selection last year.

I like the player, but I just see no spot for him on our offense. What is he gonna do? He's not big enough to replace Boss as a full time TE, he's not big enough to be a FB, and he's not good enough to replace one of our big 3 WRs.

And even in redzone situations, I rather have Barden out there over him.

So where does he fit? I feel like he may have been a wasted draft pick.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'm kind of upset with our Travis Beckum selection last year.

I like the player, but I just see no spot for him on our offense. What is he gonna do? He's not big enough to replace Boss as a full time TE, he's not big enough to be a FB, and he's not good enough to replace one of our big 3 WRs.

And even in redzone situations, I rather have Barden out there over him.

So where does he fit? I feel like he may have been a wasted draft pick.
he absolutely DOMINATES as a 2nd TE in Madden. Trust me.
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Old 01-05-2010, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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he absolutely DOMINATES as a 2nd TE in Madden. Trust me.
that alone makes the selection totally worth it.

I also bench Jacobs for Bradshaw when i pick the Giants.

Oh yes. yes i do.
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Tuck can play End in a Phillips 3-4, which is a 1 gap scheme. Not in a traditional 2 gap scheme though.


If Javhid Best falls to the 2nd round, I would give him serious consideration. I like Best. He'd make a great spread offense back. And we're becoming more of a 3 WR offense nowadays. We could use another back in that mold.
Yeah maybe, but we are not running the 50 defense which is what Philips defense is. 1 gap 34 defense. I think if we change it would be a true 2 gap 34 defense.
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Old 01-06-2010, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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If could be possibile to use 3-4 fronts (or mix in 3-4 fronts with 4-3 fronts)


I wouldn't completely rule out Tuck as a 3-4 DE, but will it get the best out of arguably our best defensive lineman. I think Tuck could be a good 3-4 DE much like Bruce Smith.

Or perhaps he could be used in some DE/OLB hybrid, much like Willie McGinest.



Basically the defense as it stands could be in for a complete overhaul. Everything is up for grabs at the moment.

Realistically even if we keep the 4-3 as expected, there is alot of work needed in the front seven.

Does the prolific passing attacks mean that we need to consider the more mobile options?


I think my preferred option would be to sign Ryan Pickett and draft Dan Williams.
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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I hope we pick up James Starks, he's going to go way later than he should because of his injuries. He's got very good and speed with quick feet and nice vision. Plus despite transferring away I'd love to see a UB Bull make a positive impact on the g-men.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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If could be possibile to use 3-4 fronts (or mix in 3-4 fronts with 4-3 fronts)


I wouldn't completely rule out Tuck as a 3-4 DE, but will it get the best out of arguably our best defensive lineman. I think Tuck could be a good 3-4 DE much like Bruce Smith.

Or perhaps he could be used in some DE/OLB hybrid, much like Willie McGinest.



Basically the defense as it stands could be in for a complete overhaul. Everything is up for grabs at the moment.

Realistically even if we keep the 4-3 as expected, there is alot of work needed in the front seven.

Does the prolific passing attacks mean that we need to consider the more mobile options?


I think my preferred option would be to sign Ryan Pickett and draft Dan Williams.

So basically a hybrid defense? 3-4 and 4-3 fronts? So... Tim Lewis all over again? Remember he came from a 3-4 Steeler defense, and brought that non sense to us. How did that turn out? And now we want to revisit that again? Why don't we use the blue print Spags used and find a coach who can execute that? or.. Just get an experienced DC who can lead this defense. No more newbies as coordinators on this team. 3 is enough for me. We hit on one, Spags, but the other two, Hufangel and Sheridan were Epic Failures.
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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So basically a hybrid defense? 3-4 and 4-3 fronts? So... Tim Lewis all over again? Remember he came from a 3-4 Steeler defense, and brought that non sense to us. How did that turn out? And now we want to revisit that again? Why don't we use the blue print Spags used and find a coach who can execute that? or.. Just get an experienced DC who can lead this defense. No more newbies as coordinators on this team. 3 is enough for me. We hit on one, Spags, but the other two, Hufangel and Sheridan were Epic Failures.
I was thinking more along the lines of what teams like the Patriots and Ravens have done with various combinations of the two. The key though is to get quality guys up front.

I agree on needing a vet DC though
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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I know hindsight is 20/20, but I'm kind of upset with our Travis Beckum selection last year.

I like the player, but I just see no spot for him on our offense. What is he gonna do? He's not big enough to replace Boss as a full time TE, he's not big enough to be a FB, and he's not good enough to replace one of our big 3 WRs.

And even in redzone situations, I rather have Barden out there over him.

So where does he fit? I feel like he may have been a wasted draft pick.

I feel the same way. There were better TE on the board when we picked, IMHO. Nelson and Ingram were still on the board when Reese took Beckum. It appears that they wanted him to play teh H-back role, but they never really put plays in for it. I think Beckum can turn into a poor man's Chris Cooley, or Dallas Clark, but he needs the OC to add that into the game plan. It was only his first year so I hope he improves and the OC adds some plays in for him, aside for the lame H-Back screen.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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Earl Thomas just declared for the NFL draft which excites me as a Giants fan. I think we're kind of in no mans land in terms of where we're drafting for the needs we have right now (DT, MLB, S primarily) but if Thomas is on the board at our pick I'd absolutely love to bring him in.

He's more a pure free safety, and probably isn't big enough to play strong safety but I would love to have him. I think the idea Kenny can't play strong safety and still be a pro bowl type player are overblown too. We honestly don't really know.

I think an Earl Thomas/Kenny Phillips safety tandem would be electric. Both guys have fantastic range and would cover a lot of ground for us in addition to being ball hawks.

Right now pre-senior bowl, pre-combine my number one guy who I want in the first is Earl Thomas.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Forenci View Post
Earl Thomas just declared for the NFL draft which excites me as a Giants fan. I think we're kind of in no mans land in terms of where we're drafting for the needs we have right now (DT, MLB, S primarily) but if Thomas is on the board at our pick I'd absolutely love to bring him in.

He's more a pure free safety, and probably isn't big enough to play strong safety but I would love to have him. I think the idea Kenny can't play strong safety and still be a pro bowl type player are overblown too. We honestly don't really know.

I think an Earl Thomas/Kenny Phillips safety tandem would be electric. Both guys have fantastic range and would cover a lot of ground for us in addition to being ball hawks.

Right now pre-senior bowl, pre-combine my number one guy who I want in the first is Earl Thomas.
id put his value at 20-25, i dont think id be bad if we picked him at 15 but i think we can manage to trade down and still get him. A risk, but a risk that saves value.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:26 PM    (permalink
Forenci
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id put his value at 20-25, i dont think id be bad if we picked him at 15 but i think we can manage to trade down and still get him. A risk, but a risk that saves value.
I don't think so personally. I think he'll be a top 15 pick and if we can get at 16 I'd be extremely excited.
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Old 01-09-2010, 08:25 AM    (permalink
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I don't think so personally. I think he'll be a top 15 pick and if we can get at 16 I'd be extremely excited.
we pick at 15 im pretty sure
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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we pick at 15 im pretty sure
Oh haha, I thought we were 16 for whatever reason. Either way, he'll probably be the best value on the board and if you listen to a lot of other people who pick after us they all want Thomas and I can't blame them.

Unless someone big falls on the board like CJ Spiller or Rolando McClain (we'd still have to trade up, even if he did fall a bit) then I'm pushing for Thomas. I don't see a DT where we pick that'd be worth it, and trading down is always a difficult thing to do, not to mention EVERYONE wants to trade down on draft day making it that much harder.
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Old 01-10-2010, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Oh haha, I thought we were 16 for whatever reason. Either way, he'll probably be the best value on the board and if you listen to a lot of other people who pick after us they all want Thomas and I can't blame them.

Unless someone big falls on the board like CJ Spiller or Rolando McClain (we'd still have to trade up, even if he did fall a bit) then I'm pushing for Thomas. I don't see a DT where we pick that'd be worth it, and trading down is always a difficult thing to do, not to mention EVERYONE wants to trade down on draft day making it that much harder.
very true, i do agree i wouldn't trade up in this draft, there is alot of talent all over the place especially with all the underclassmen, but if we do trade down like 5 picks with someone with very high value we could net a 2nd or 3rd which would be a great difference for us.

How you see the DT's is how im starting to feel, almost all the DT's in this draft seem to be missing a big part of their game, and possibly be called "one dimensional". That is a huge negative and why i dont want a DT in the first anymore.

What really would be best for us is to part ways with jacobs, he is a great person, he just is too injury prone with his size and running style, and waits too much on holes that wont always come. Andre Brown tore his ACL so we don't know whats happening there.

Apparently from another thread in the Pro Football section Jacobs is worth a mid to late 2nd, but he's really more like a 3rd but lets say early 3rd. And then most likely we will have an opportunity to trade down, and i trust in Jerry, we probably net a 2nd to trade down 5 or so spaces with a team that is desperate.

so...

1. (around 20-25) Earl Thomas S Texas
Smallish frame, lacks height and weight is average, incredible instincts and has a great closing burst with very good angles. Very high upside, but might be hard to matchup against taller recievers and especially TE's.

2. (most likely have to trade up, spend a 4th) Brandon Spikes ILB Florida
Competitve, nasty, plays with fiery emotion, may be more athletic than most think, was part of a complex defense, could be a great MLB for us (maybe even a SAM if we trust in Goff).

2.(around 20-25) Dan Williams NT Tennessee
Gained a great deal of value this year after being thought as a mid-late rounder, although he can rush the passer, he has very limited technique and is more one dimensional towards the run than you may like. We NEED a run stuffer who can take on multiple blockers, with Spikes and Williams our run defense in the middle could be solidified.

3.(early-ish) Ryan Matthews RB Fresno state.
Tough runner, makes something out of nothing and often, athletic, seems to have a good overall game.

3. Ciron Black RT LSU
We could go Tennant here, but there must be a reason why we moved Koets to center and I believe Black could take over the RT position while McKenzie routinely does average.

5. Walter Thurmond III DB Oregon
With Byrd's emergence, it gives belief that Thurmond can be a playmaker much like his previous teammate. I don't believe Ross will disappoint, i think he reemerges as a great corner and allows a rotation, Thurmond could be a good nickel-dime corner and now we have 5 good corners (web, thomas, ross, johnson, thurmond) and versatility.

6. Rashawn Jackson FB Virginia
i love me some hedgecock, but he is very one dimensional and hardly a threat whatsoever, Jackson is a very versatile player at the FB position and can give us more than 3 yards on those FB out plays.

7. Jeremy Boone P Penn State
Feagles gave us many years of great punting, but he just can't get any distance it seems and he'll probably retire anyway
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Old 01-11-2010, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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After watching McClain play against Texas, I don't know if its a guarantee that the guy is a top 10 pick.

Don't get me wrong, I LOOOVE the guy, but he's not as fast as I think he's being estimated as. He runs like a 4.75 to me, maybe even a 4.8.

He's not a 4.6 guy. And if he runs a 4.75, that could make him fall to us at 15. One can only hope.



Also, I don't think theres much of a difference physically between Spikes and McClain. Both grade out similarly to me on the field. The advantage McClain has to me is his leadership ability and his ability to line guys up. He does that better than Spikes. But on the field play, you can make a strong argument that Spikes is just as nice.

McClain is clearly bigger and stronger, so what I mean by that is on the field, both play in the same mold and I see similar production from the 2.
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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I agree^^^ but feel Rolando is more athletically gifted as well.

With all the underclassmen talent coming in, we need to trade this pick down, even if it is McClain, because we can get a ridiculous amount of value out of it. This draft is going to be one of the best in a while despite the weak QB class.

If we trade down with McClain on the line, we're talking future 1st rounder and a mid round pick, thats big. And now would also be the time to get rid of Jacobs or Osi, who seem to be declining on their careers, because of all the talent it pushes other first round prospects into later rounds.

McClain falls to us, hypothetically because another player who is highly regarded is bound to fall as well, Everyone knows we need a MLB, and if hes there people should have to give extra value because we can just take him and look like geniuses.

Trade the rights to pick #15 for a 20-25 pick for a future 1st, and a 3rd. Previous to the draft we trade away one of our declining players, Jacobs nets us an early third/late 2nd. Osi nets us a 1st, 3rd/4th.

Trading Osi:

1a.(and future)
1b.
2.
3a.
3b.
4.
5.
6.
7.

Trade Jacobs

1. (and future)
2a.
2b.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

Not saying its going to happen because it 95% wont, but If we trade Jacobs or Osi it might really help us. It provides extra picks (that are pretty high) that the DC we hire can use to fit his system, and for our OC (if we get one)
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Old 01-11-2010, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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My top 5 big board at this point:
1. Rolando McClain
2. Earl Thomas
3. Greg Hardy
4. Taylor Mays
5. Brandon Spikes(if we trade down, would be a reach if we don't)
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