MLB Discussion Thread - Page 230

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

It has this year with Ike and Pelfrey coming around. But the last several years, most of your top guys haven't panned out to be anything.

Yeah but as you know everyone was killing our farm last year when we had all the injuries. I always said it was better than the media was saying.

Borat · 06-17-2010, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Yeah but as you know everyone was killing our farm last year when we had all the injuries. I always said it was better than the media was saying.

I just want to mention that I defended the Mets system last year and said they had at least 4 guys that would be considered top 100 and you could argue they had 5 or 6.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 10:21 AM

That's why I like you Borat. You going to trade for Prince?

Jughead10 · 06-17-2010, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Yeah but as you know everyone was killing our farm last year when we had all the injuries. I always said it was better than the media was saying.

Mainly because Ike has been so much better than most thought. But unless you're willing to trade Mejia, and maybe that's not even enough, I think it's still going to be hard to land a decent pitcher at the deadline.

The people that have been saying look at what the farm system has produced, are referring to a bunch of journeymen and players off the scrap heap that are playing way over their head currently.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

Mainly because Ike has been so much better than most thought. But unless you're willing to trade Mejia, and maybe that's not even enough, I think it's still going to be hard to land a decent pitcher at the deadline.

The people that have been saying look at what the farm system has produced, are referring to a bunch of journeymen and players off the scrap heap that are playing way over their head currently.

How do you figure? Ike has been very good and you have Niese who is pitching like a #3. Tejada has been competent at 2B for a 20 yr old and Pagan has been playing out of this world while still young. Mejia has been ok but that's more because of the role Jerry has him in which is useless. He needs to be sent down immediately. We still have the pieces to land a big SP but if we do that then the farm takes a turn towards crappytown.

Jughead10 · 06-17-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

How do you figure? Ike has been very good and you have Niese who is pitching like a #3. Tejada has been competent at 2B for a 20 yr old and Pagan has been playing out of this world while still young. Mejia has been ok but that's more because of the role Jerry has him in which is useless. He needs to be sent down immediately. We still have the pieces to land a big SP but if we do that then the farm takes a turn towards crappytown.

Niese has been great and I've always like him, but Pagan isn't that young and was basically a cast away from the Cubs. Tejada is competent in the field, but his bat seemed rushed which is normal for the Mets. It just doesn't seem to Mets have many desrrable pieces for a trade for a big pitcher. Someone would want Tejada but he isn't major league ready and would be more of a throw in. Mejia seems to have been getting out of jams left and right and not striking out nearly as many people as some would think he should in a relief role. He was rushed too. Would you want to trade Niese and Mejia to get a big pitcher?

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

Niese has been great and I've always like him, but Pagan isn't that young and was basically a cast away from the Cubs. Tejada is competent in the field, but his bat seemed rushed which is normal for the Mets. It just doesn't seem to Mets have many desrrable pieces for a trade for a big pitcher. Someone would want Tejada but he isn't major league ready and would be more of a throw in. Mejia seems to have been getting out of jams left and right and not striking out nearly as many people as some would think he should in a relief role. He was rushed too. Would you want to trade Niese and Mejia to get a big pitcher?

Mejia I might deal if it was for Haren. We need Niese as a young cost controlled SP. We have more pieces in the farm that we could deal if need be but like I said then the farm would take a big hit. I don't want to trade for Lee though. It would have to be Haren or Oswalt. Omar robbed the Cubs to get Angel back.

Jughead10 · 06-17-2010, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Mejia I might deal if it was for Haren. We need Niese as a young cost controlled SP. We have more pieces in the farm that we could deal if need be but like I said then the farm would take a big hit. I don't want to trade for Lee though. It would have to be Haren or Oswalt. Omar robbed the Cubs to get Angel back.

Pagan is an average player who will already be 29 next month. He robbed them because they just let him go. He was a castaway. On a great team he'd be a fourth OFer. What would you trade for Haren or Oswalt?

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jughead10

Pagan is an average player who will already be 29 next month. He robbed them because they just let him go. He was a castaway. On a great team he'd be a fourth OFer. What would you trade for Haren or Oswalt?

Haha no. Angel has been one of the best Cf's in all of baseball this year and he would start for pretty much any team. You can see he's playing over his head but he's been doing this going back to last year. He has a 2.1 WAR tied for 3rd in baseball with Rasmus and Vernon. He's even ahead of McCutchen and Gutierrez.

As for Haren or Oswalt I'm not entirely sure. I think I'd deal Mejia for Haren but not Oswalt. I'd give up for Fernando for either of them. Flores I'd rather keep but after that they can take almost anything.

Notredameleo · 06-17-2010, 11:24 AM

Brennan Boesch is sex!!

MaxV · 06-17-2010, 11:25 AM

Mets definitely have the pieces. And they probably can put a great package together without touching Niese, Davis or Mejia.

A package of Wilmer Flores, Reese Havens and Kirk Nieuwenhuis is very strong.

And I wouldn't that for ANY pitcher.

Brodeur · 06-17-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxV

Mets definitely have the pieces. And they probably can put a great package together without touching Niese, Davis or Mejia.

A package of Wilmer Flores, Reese Havens and Kirk Nieuwenhuis is very strong.

And I wouldn't that for ANY pitcher.

What's special about Kirk Nieuwenhuis?

bsaza2358 · 06-17-2010, 11:30 AM

Why would you not deal for Lee and prefer Oswalt/Haren ahead of him? Lee is the best playoff performer out of all of them and showed he could dominate the NL in the playoffs. Is this an "I want a RHP to pair with Santana" thing?

Jughead10 · 06-17-2010, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giantsfan1080

Haha no. Angel has been one of the best Cf's in all of baseball this year and he would start for pretty much any team. You can see he's playing over his head but he's been doing this going back to last year. He has a 2.1 WAR tied for 3rd in baseball with Rasmus and Vernon. He's even ahead of McCutchen and Gutierrez.

As for Haren or Oswalt I'm not entirely sure. I think I'd deal Mejia for Haren but not Oswalt. I'd give up for Fernando for either of them. Flores I'd rather keep but after that they can take almost anything.

Why is his WAR so high? Cause of his defense? Cause his bat is extremely average. And isn't 2.5 months of that data not enough? Not that I trust that data anyway.

MaxV · 06-17-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brodeur

What's special about Kirk Nieuwenhuis?

Power, Speed, Good arm, Good enough defensive range to be a CF in the Major Leagues, can hit either lefties or righties well.

Other then that, he's really mediocre.

And for your follow up question:

There are various reports saying that Mariners like Kirk and would want him to be in the package.

bsaza2358 · 06-17-2010, 11:46 AM

2.5 months of data is barely statistically relevant. Pagan has played well, but there isn't much historical data to support his continuing on current trends. I agree that he's a 4th OF on a playoff team.

Jughead10 · 06-17-2010, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsaza2358

2.5 months of data is barely statistically relevant. Pagan has played well, but there isn't much historical data to support his continuing on current trends. I agree that he's a 4th OF on a playoff team.

I can only judge that data by the players I see play everyday. The Yankees. And that data says Swisher is a decently above average OFer and Gardner is below average. I can't take it seriously.

bsaza2358 · 06-17-2010, 11:49 AM

Even so, over time, statistics always regress towards the mean. I don't believe that Pagan's contact rate, BB rate, or K rate has changed significantly. This indicates that he remains a solid defender, but his hitting is well above norms and cannot be maintained.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsaza2358

Why would you not deal for Lee and prefer Oswalt/Haren ahead of him? Lee is the best playoff performer out of all of them and showed he could dominate the NL in the playoffs. Is this an "I want a RHP to pair with Santana" thing?

Lee is going to walk this year and the Yankees are signing him most likely. I'm not giving up a ton of prospects for a 3 month rental. Also, let's just say Lee did not walk and signed with the Mets. I don't want $50 million tied into Santana and Lee post 30 for another 5 or 6 years. We can't tie our hands behind our backs like that. Haren and Oswalt are signed to very reasonable deals.

bsaza2358 · 06-17-2010, 11:53 AM

If you're renting Lee, you pay less in prospects. That goes without saying. I'm saying that Lee is the best option to make a run this year. If he walks, so be it.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 11:53 AM

Yes a lot of that is tied into Pagan's defense. His bat has been like this for almost a full year now so maybe he's figured things out. He very well might turn back into a pumpkin at which he would become a 4th OF bt at this rate he's one of the better CR's in baseball.

Giantsfan1080 · 06-17-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsaza2358

If you're renting Lee, you pay less in prospects. That goes without saying. I'm saying that Lee is the best option to make a run this year. If he walks, so be it.

The Mariners are asking for a huge return and I'd rather give up more for the other 2 when they are cost controlled for 2+ years. If you told me adding Lee would guarantee a WS ring then yeah I'd have to do it but it doesn't guarantee anything.

bsaza2358 · 06-17-2010, 11:57 AM

It's called having balls. If the Mets think that adding Lee + Beltran will get them a WC berth, that should be enough for them to make this investment. Lee can be resigned by NY if they invest the money. I've seen him pitch for my team. He is a stud and is worth paying like a top flight SP. The Mets are a top 5 revenue franchise. They can afford to get him and resign him if the price comes down. And believe me, the price will come down...

MaxV · 06-17-2010, 11:59 AM

I might be willing to deal for Lee, simply because you can get two 1st round picks if he leaves.

But again, the price has to be right.

Brodeur · 06-17-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxV

Power, Speed, Good arm, Good enough defensive range to be a CF in the Major Leagues, can hit either lefties or righties well.

Other then that, he's really mediocre.

And for your follow up question:

There are various reports saying that Mariners like Kirk and would want him to be in the package.

Nieuwenhuis is a lousy defender and he didn't have 20 homers or 20 SB's in his first pro season, and he's not exactly tearing it up this year. I really doubt he's anything more than a fourth outfielder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsaza2358

If you're renting Lee, you pay less in prospects. That goes without saying. I'm saying that Lee is the best option to make a run this year. If he walks, so be it.

You do not pay less for Lee than you would Haren and Oswalt. Oswalt/Haren have pretty ugly salaries that makes them significantly less valuable, and Lee is worth 2 extra picks in the offseason if not re-signed.