P.Manning vs M.Vick vs J.Elway..Most talented Prospect

[San Diego Chicken]

Definition of talent:


–noun
1.
a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
2.
a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.
3.
a talented person: The cast includes many of the theater's major talents.
4.
a group of persons with special ability: an exhibition of watercolors by the local talent.
5.
Movies and Television . professional actors collectively, esp. star performers.
6.
a power of mind or body considered as given to a person for use and improvement: so called from the parable in Matt. 25:14–30.
7.
any of various ancient units of weight, as a unit of Palestine and Syria equal to 3000 shekels, or a unit of Greece equal to 6000 drachmas.
8.
any of various ancient Hebrew or Attic monetary units equal in value to that of a talent weight of gold, silver, or other metal.
9.
Obsolete . inclination or disposition.



According to the book definition of talent, intelligence, aptitude, and mental capacity for success all factor in as much if not moreso; thus Peyton Manning is as "talented" as any prospect I've ever seen.

Bear in mind, I didn't watch John Elway in college. But I would take Peyton Manning's talent ten times out of ten over Mike Vick.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken

Bear in mind, I didn't watch John Elway in college. But I would take Peyton Manning's talent ten times out of ten over Mike Vick.

so you're saying that intelligence, in terms of talent, is so overwhelming that lacking every physical tool in comparison is irrelevant? or you're saying he's a better prospect because he was smarter?

[umphrey]

Vick easily. Rocket arm and one of the best open field runners I've ever seen. Keep in mind I'm comparing to what I thought Elway was like as a prospect because I wasn't alive in 1983. Trying to imagine based on how he was in the nineties.

[San Diego Chicken]

Originally Posted by njx9

so you're saying that intelligence, in terms of talent, is so overwhelming that lacking every physical tool in comparison is irrelevant? or you're saying he's a better prospect because he was smarter?

I'm saying, of the myriad of factors judging quarterback "talent", Michael Vick was better than Peyton Manning at exactly two of them: arm strength, and outside the pocket mobility.

Every other factor you can think of for a QB, edge to Manning. Throwing a football with accuracy is a talent. Processing information quickly (progressions) is a talent. Having a very wide range of field vision is a talent. Throwing a route with timing just as a receiver comes out of his break takes talent. Anticipation takes talent. Having an in depth understanding of defensive coverages is a talent.

Michael Vick is a more talented athlete then Peyton Manning, but Manning is the far more talented football quarterback. He was then and he is now.

I realize it's just my opinion, but I would like to hear one thing Michael Vick was more "talented at" other than throwing the ball hard and far and running with speed to the outside.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken

I'm saying, of the myriad of factors judging quarterback "talent", Michael Vick was better than Peyton Manning at exactly two of them: arm strength, and outside the pocket mobility.

Every other factor you can think of for a QB, edge to Manning. Throwing a football with accuracy is a talent. Processing information quickly (progressions) is a talent. Having a very wide range of field vision is a talent. Throwing a route with timing just as a receiver comes out of his break takes talent. Anticipation takes talent. Having an in depth understanding of defensive coverages is a talent.

Michael Vick is a more talented athlete then Peyton Manning, but Manning is the far more talented football quarterback. He was then and he is now.

fair enough. i don't like the "well peyton calls audibles and he's smarter so he must be more talented" argument, because it's basically bunk. as you mentioned, with myriad factors going into the evaluation, i think saying "he was smart" for peyton is just as stupid as saying "he could run fast" for vick. neither really means anything.

I realize it's just my opinion, but I would like to hear one thing Michael Vick was more "talented at" other than throwing the ball hard and far and running with speed to the outside.

if one wants to argue intangibles, i'd argue that, coming out of college, vick's may have looked better (leading a program to major wins instead of falling apart vs. florida, as your article mentioned). i think vick changed the field in the same way that randy moss does (or, i should say, he had the potential to). now, you had to spy him at all times, and often with more than one defender. you should've had to take into account a qb who could beat everyone on the field down the field, or stop short and put a pass over the spy. he had the ability to throw the ball 80 yards downfield, which is extremely relevant when you start talking about a rushing qb. if i can send my wide outs deep, the defense HAS to respect my ability to throw it that far.

look at, for instance, the success jake fricking plummer was able to have in an offense where he was able to challenge the defense on a boot leg. now think about a guy who was likely the most physically talented player to ever play the position.

here's part of the problem: people want to look at vick and think, 'well he was dumb, and he never learned how to throw with touch and he never learned how to throw first and run second', but all of those things could be fixed (well, could've been, at that time). peyton was never going to run faster or throw further.

so yeah, if i'm looking at a qb who's a pocket passer, i want him to hit his wrs in stride coming out of routes. i want him to show an ability to make multiple reads. but if i have a guy coming out who's as physically talented as vick, i care far less about those things (if i trust my coaches).

in any case, whatever the webster definition of the word is, i don't put mental attributes under 'talent' when discussing an nfl prospect. it's a different language in that case, and i'd generally look at talent (as i believe most others were who suggested manning shouldn't have even been mentioned) as meaning the general physical ability of a player.

[FUNBUNCHER]

From that SI article, even though as a talent evaluator he's a little 'off the reservation', Bill Walsh would have creamed himself for the opportunity to draft Vick.

But I'm beginning to think after reading that SI article that if all three prospects came out in 1998, Elway would have gone first, ( the best combination of the combined skills of Vick/Manning), Manning second, and Vick third.

All of them probably would have been gone in the first 4 picks.

[Bengalsrocket]

Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER

From that SI article, even though as a talent evaluator he's a little 'off the reservation', Bill Walsh would have creamed himself for the opportunity to draft Vick.

But I'm beginning to think after reading that SI article that if all three prospects came out in 1998, Elway would have gone first, ( the best combination of the combined skills of Vick/Manning), Manning second, and Vick third.

All of them probably would have been gone in the first 4 picks.

Yea, I respect Bill Walsh on many different levels, but he always did over think player evaluations. He seems to attempt to aim for a unique prospect when looking at QB's and often skipping over the 1st round projections and aiming for later round quarterbacks for the sake of having a different opinion (or trying to look like a mastermind). Michael Vick might be the first QB he would have agreed with drafting in the first round.

[Halsey]

In fairness to Vick, he did not grow up with some of the advantages that I know Manning had, and imagine Elway had advantages too. Manning was the oldest son of an NFL QB, probably went to good schools, and was overall better equipped for the life of being a superstar QB. Having said that, I still think Manning is just smarter than the average dude. Just look at his egg head. Vick had to overcome poverty, a deadbeat dad, etc. However, if all those kind of variables were equal, I still believe Manning has more 'talent' for being a QB.

[katnip]

Based on their careers. John Elway all the way. Went to 5 super bowls, won 2 of them, 1 he beat brett favre. who many vastly overrate. at least most of the espn guys.

[Halsey]

Say what you want about Brett Favre, but he's been the starting QB for his team every game for two decades. Every game. The teams Favre has started for have been in the playoffs all but like 2 or 3 years. The teams he started for have only had a losing record one or two of those years, I believe. Don't let the media hype and diva qualities fool you, Favre is ridiculously good.

[Werowance]

See, the way this question is phrased, the answer is Michael Vick. If the question was who was the best prospect instead of the most talented prospect the answer would be Elway. Between the ears Manning is better than both of them, Elway is a great combination of athleticism and intelligence but in terms of talent, no QB prospect ever can touch Vick.

We're not likely to ever see a prospect comparable to Vick ever again, sure we might get a Pat White, Tyrod Taylor or a Robert Griffin every once in a while but not even the best running QBs today can touch Vick in terms of athleticism. Michael Vick ran a 4.25 40 yard dash at Virginia Tech and he ran a 4.36 at a post-draft mini-camp, the conditions of which likely didn't contribute to a fantastic 40 yard dash. And the guy probably still has the strongest arm in the NFL, Vick is very inaccurate but one thing is for sure, the guy can flick the ball 60 yards with the flick of a wrist. And the guy in his prime was the most elusive player since Barry Sanders, the guy was a blur on the field.

I dare you to find me any other QB who could do this:



You can't. In terms of talent, Vick is the most talented QB prospect ever IMO simply because no prospect is ever likely to match that speed, arm strength, elusiveness and athletic ability ever again.

Now if you're asking who is the best QB prospect ever instead of the most talented, thats different and its likely Elway.