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Old 09-18-2010, 08:54 AM    (permalink
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You can crunch, twist, and puree Curtis Martin's numbers any way you want, at the end of the day after an 11 year career, he's the NFL's 4th alltime leading rusher.

Not top 10. Number 4.
If Henry Ellard was the 4th leading WR in yardage in the history of the NFL, he'd be in the HOF.

Hank Aaron is an appropriate example in that he's the only player with 600+ HRs who never had a 50 HR season, ( not sure about Palmiero.) And making the all star game in baseball when every team has a player selected, is not quite as easy as being selected to the pro bowl or being an AP All-Pro.
Also, Aaron was seldom considered, per season, the greatest hitter in the game.

The Eric Dickerson comparison was to show how odd, and in it's own way, 'great', Curtis Martin's production was from a historical perspective.

Both played 11 years. Dickerson had arguably four of the greatest rushing years of any RB in NFL history, yet Martin finished his career with almost a 1,000 more yards on the ground, without ever having more than 2 seasons over 1500 yards.

About Smith and Payton, each played 15 and 13 years respectively. Did they just 'hang around' to compile stats?? That was my only point, that the extended length of a RB's career is always a positive in his favor, not a negative.

Curtis Martin was a contemporary of Terrell Davis, Chris Warren, Jerome Bettis, Eddie George, Marshall Faulk, Corey Dillon, Priest Holmes, LaDainian Tomlinson, Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders, and yet Martin exceeded all their accomplishments as pure rushers, except for Smith and Sanders.
And because of his receiving, I put Faulk in his own category.

Martin may not have been the greatest RB in the NFL when he played, but he ended his career as one of the greatest rushers in NFL history.

Strange, yet still true.
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Old 09-18-2010, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Who do you think is going surpass Martin's numbers in the next 10 years??

Outside of AP, there isn't one that I see on the horizon.

Total career rushing numbers always matter in considering a RB for the HOF. There won't be another Gayle Sayers who goes in. Terrell Davis and Priest Holmes, HOF caliber RBs, won't make it in IMO precisely because they didn't play long enough to put up Canton worthy numbers.
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Old 09-18-2010, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I'd say Jason Witten is on his way. Needs 1-2 more good years
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Old 09-18-2010, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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I'd say Jason Witten is on his way. Needs 1-2 more good years
Hahaha. No.
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Old 09-18-2010, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Good.
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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but who cares? longevity is martin's ONLY claim to the hall.

i can't wait to hear the same argument for feagles.
BUT FEAGLES WAS THE SEX!
HOF'er, fo' sho. kinda. yea.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-18-2010, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Who do you think is going surpass Martin's numbers in the next 10 years??
Tomlinson is 1500 yards away and will break Martin's yardage total next year guaranteed, in his 11th season. He'll also probably have about 50 more touch downs than Martin in his 11th season. Hes under 1000 total yards away from Martin already one game into his 10th season, and Tomlinson's average seasons stack up with Martin's best. There have been probably about ten running backs that have had multiple seasons that were better than Martin's best ever in the past decade and I'd take all of them ahead of Martin in their primes... Portis, Edge, Ricky, LJ, Holmes, Alexander, Peterson, CJ, Sjax, LT, probably more than I'm forgetting about off the top of my head too... like Jamal Lewis, uhhh... yeah, others...
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I forgot about Tomlinson, (duh!!). But I meant of the under-30 RBs.

Curtis Martin IMO will still be a top 5 alltime NFL rusher in 10 years, no worse than 6th in NFL history.

THe position has become devalued as most teams platoon two RBs who split carries.

Vox Populi, most of the RBs you listed had ONE season better than 1697 yards, not two.
Clinton Portis have never rushed over 1600 yards in a season.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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THe position has become devalued as most teams platoon two RBs who split carries.

You just summed up the hole in your argument. Platooning backs will make it harder to get the big career numbers but doesnt mean a guy is less impressive.

Maybe AP or CJ dont break Martins career rushing numbers (even though i think they both get close at least), but would you really even consider Martin over either? No, theyre much more talented.
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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So if Martin is a hall of famer is Tiki Barber? He only has like 50 fewer all purpose yards and obviously had some more impressive seasons, notably his last 3 seasons. Tiki's last two great seasons and his last five good seasons probably weigh out evenly with his crappy first five seasons with Martin's 10 completely average ones.

I'm not saying Tiki should be a hall of famer, but if Martin is, Tiki is right there too. Jerome Bettis as well. None of them will get in.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:27 AM    (permalink
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My argument for Martin is based almost primarily that 14,000 rushing yards is the 'magic' number for a RB getting into the HOF.

There are similar numbers for WRs, (1100+ catches, 15,000+ receiving yards,140+ TDs).

Some players, like LD, could retire tomorrow and be a 1st ballot HOFer without approaching that 14,000 yard mark, statistically, because of his rushing TDs, 138, 2nd alltime.
That's not the only reason LD is a HOFer, but he has certain career statistical achievements that make him a 'lock' for induction into Canton.

In no way am I saying Curtis Martin is a top 10 RB in NFL history, but that career rushing mark means it will be almost impossible to deny him induction at some point.

Hypothetically, if AD and CJ both eclipse 14,000 career yards ( not guaranteed or likely, IMO, except for Peterson), Martin at worst would be the NFL's #6 alltime leading rusher.

Bettis is the NFL's 5th alltime leading rusher, a SB champ, and one the best power backs to ever play the game. The media loves the guy and he's a Steeler.

I think some people are confusing whether or not someone is a 1st ballot candidate and whether or not a player will get in at some point.

Bettis IMO will be a top 10 rusher until the day he dies, his numbers will still hold up in 30 years because of the change in philosophy in how teams use RBs.

So, in that regard, both Martin and Bettis are locks for Canton, I believe, just not first ballot selections.

I can't imagine both these guys hitting their early 50s without ever receiving the 'call' from the HOF.

Unless I'm missing someone obvious, after LD, Faulk, Bettis and Martin, maybe AD, CJ or a RB yet unknown, there won't be more than a handful of RBs who make the HOF.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Urlacher and Briggs will get some votes.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Freeney should be in the conversation too, best pass-rusher of this decade.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:17 AM    (permalink
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Urlacher and Briggs will get some votes.
Why Briggs? He's been great for the past couple years and all but he's nothing like Hall of Fame special.
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Old 09-20-2010, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Briggs? I mean really?
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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It's kind of early, but Joe Thomas will probably make the Hall of Fame. Three years and three Pro Bowls. He should make it to at least ten. Patrick Willis should make it as well. He also has three Pro Bowls in three years.
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Old 09-20-2010, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Freeney should be in the conversation too, best pass-rusher of this decade.
Again, its a numbers game for him. Freeney is 45 sacks away from being a marginally solid candidate for the HOF. Currently he's at 85.

At age 30, I think Freeney has a serious uphill climb. There are a number of great pass rushers who've put up impressive sacks numbers who aren't in the HOF.

Kevin Greene is the greatest pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in NFL history, (3rd alltime among all pass rushers with 160 sacks), and you can already see the impact his tutelage is having on Clay Matthews.
But Greene he's years away from getting into Canton.

Chris Doleman, Richard Dent, Leslie O'Neal, Simeon Rice and Clyde Simmons were all 120+ sack DEs, and except for Dent(6th alltime - 137.5)) and Leslie O'Neil(tied for 8th - 132.5), most of those guys aren't gonna make it.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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Kevin Greene is the greatest pass-rushing 3-4 OLB in NFL history, (3rd alltime among all pass rushers with 160 sacks), and you can already see the impact his tutelage is having on Clay Matthews.
But Greene he's years away from getting into Canton.

Chris Doleman, Richard Dent, Leslie O'Neal, Simeon Rice and Clyde Simmons were all 120+ sack DEs, and except for Dent(6th alltime - 137.5)) and Leslie O'Neil(tied for 8th - 132.5), most of those guys aren't gonna make it.
For some reason Leslie O'Neal was left off the prelim ballot for the 2011 Class. That's got to be an oversight by the HOF.

Dent has been a finalist now 6 times so its only a matter of time before he gets the call. Doleman and Greene have both been semi-finalists but pro-football-reference is positive on them eventually getting elected.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5325

Looking long, long-term, Adrian Peterson, Patrick Willis and Chris Johnson are on the radar. Antonio Gates has just tied Shannon Sharpe for the 2nd most TDs ever by a TE and TO became the 3rd player with 15,000 yds to go with his 1,000+ catches and 140+ TDs.

Andre Johnson went past 600 receptions this week. Still far, far too early but both Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald are on the path to Canton.

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Old 09-20-2010, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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I looked into this thread because I thought someone put in a Clay Matthews III comment. I was wrong :(

What you guys think about Lorenzo Neal?
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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I looked into this thread because I thought someone put in a Clay Matthews III comment. I was wrong :(

What you guys think about Lorenzo Neal?
Neal has zero chance. When you look at the backlog of names currently and the names that will soon be joining the ballot I'd be shocked if Neal got as far as the Last 25 semi-final list. Absolutely no chance a blocking fullback will be picked in the Top 5 modern era candidates in a given year.

Neal will be forever in the Steve Tasker wing alongside Brian Mitchell and Tasker himself.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Bruce Gradkowski anyone???

Lol no but what do you guys think about these guys: CB Nnamdi Asomugha and P Shane Lechler

Nnamdi has been one of/the best CB in the league for around 4 or 5 years and if the raiders can turn it around with him or he goes to a winning team and gets a ring. He still has another 3 years at CB then I can see him as a FS for maybe 2 years so he still has time

Lechler has been the best punter in the league since he entered back in 2000. He already leads in the all time average for punters and is already off to a great season this year. Once again his problem is he has been on the Raiders, and except for his first 2 or 3 years, we havent done ****.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:23 PM    (permalink
zachsaints52
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Neal has zero chance. When you look at the backlog of names currently and the names that will soon be joining the ballot I'd be shocked if Neal got as far as the Last 25 semi-final list. Absolutely no chance a blocking fullback will be picked in the Top 5 modern era candidates in a given year.

Neal will be forever in the Steve Tasker wing alongside Brian Mitchell and Tasker himself.
I wasnt thinking the next couple of years where the classes are loaded, but maybe a little ways away in a off year Neal could have a shot. He helped made what LaDanian is, leading the way for 11 straight 1000 yard rushers, and he was very consistent.

Love me some Neal. Would love to see him in it somehow.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER
My argument for Martin is based almost primarily that 14,000 rushing yards is the 'magic' number for a RB getting into the HOF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER
Again, its a numbers game for him. Freeney is 45 sacks away from being a marginally solid candidate for the HOF. Currently he's at 85.
This is'nt baseball, it's the pro football HOF there is no "Magic Number" that garuntees a player to be in the HOF. Aswell there is no statistical benchmark that a player must reach to get HOF consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderNation
Lechler has been the best punter in the league since he entered back in 2000. He already leads in the all time average for punters and is already off to a great season this year. Once again his problem is he has been on the Raiders, and except for his first 2 or 3 years, we havent done ****.
Punters just don't make enough of an impact on the game, to get a lot of HOF consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zachsaints52
I wasnt thinking the next couple of years where the classes are loaded, but maybe a little ways away in a off year Neal could have a shot. He helped made what LaDanian is, leading the way for 11 straight 1000 yard rushers, and he was very consistent.

Love me some Neal. Would love to see him in it somehow.
Lorenzo Neal shouldn't be in either, a blocking FB just doesn't make enough of an impact. Aswell Lorenzo Neal's legacy is very over rated due to the 11 straight 1,000 yard rushers for which he blocked.

But really Eddie George, Corey Dillion, and LT had all established themselves as 1000 + yard rushers/top tier NFL RBs by the time Lorenzo Neal arrived at their teams. Lorenzo Neal was not a big difference maker for all those players to have consecutive 1,000 seasons. He was a good blocking FB that benefited from playing with some excellent RBs including one of the all time greats in his prime(LT).

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Old 09-20-2010, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Bruce Gradkowski anyone???

Lol no
Its a good thing you said Lol no because I totally thought you were serious!
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