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Old 11-12-2010, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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If Peyton threw for 145 yards in a Super Bowl with a QB rating the mid 80s, people would crucify him and say that he was carried by the rushing attack or defense. Oh, wait I guess that's already happened. And he faced the best defense in the NFC that Super Bowl? He puts up 29 points against the 3rd ranked scoring defense, but because he threw an INT and only managed 247 yards, he was carried by the defense. Yeah, give me a ******* break. The defense didn't play like complete dog ****. A surprise? Yes, but they didn't carry him. He actually got help. I consider that a huge difference. For once in his career, Peyton didn't have to throw for 330 yards, 4 TDs and be nearly perfect every game to get a ******* W in the playoffs. I'm sure his career will be tarnished forever. 2009 playoffs, minus one throw, he plays great football, yet he's a choker. It's a joke. The standards are so high for him, higher than Brady or any other QB before him, that he literally has to play the greatest game of his life every single week.

Peyton beat Brady in 2006. They went head-to-head. Somewhere it the stat book elway=goat produced, it failed to say anything like that. Shocking how the tables turn. When Brady throws the ball 40 or 50 times a game, the Patriots lose in the playoffs and he plays poorly. What a shocker. Peyton throws the ball 40 times a game in the playoffs like it's routine. No running game and no defense? And Brady is human? The game completely on the QBs shoulders and Brady has been average in the playoffs? Sometimes loses badly? Loses as much as he wins? No Super Bowls? Wow, what a surprise. When he can turn around and run the ball for 150 yards a game and have a defense that holds a team to less than 17 points... he wins? No ****.

No one wants to talk about Brady in the post season when he wasn't on a team that had a very good running game and top 10 defense. No one wants to bring up those stats. No one wants to talk about the Chargers game in 2006 when he had a QB rating of 57 and 3 INTs. And then to play the Colts and do very little again? 2007 he goes undefeated in the regular season and throws 50 TDs. Playoffs role around and he throws 3 INTs against the Chargers winning only because Rivers had a tore ACL with no LT and an injured Gates. Then he goes to the Super Bowl and people blame the offensive line. Wow, Tom Brady gets pressure and we pass the buck off to someone else. Peyton gets pressure and it's his fault for holding on to the ball. That stat book once again made by Patriots fans blames Asante Samuel for dropping a should-be game ending INT. Blames David Tyree for a miracle. Blames the offensive line. Gives credit to the Giants defense. Brady only managing 14 points? No. Highest scoring offense in NFL history? Everyone else's fault except for Brady. When people want to pick and choose when a QB gets credit then things get slanted. He does very little in the playoffs and he gets credit. He doesn't play well? Well, he's got 3 rings to fall back on. He doesn't deserve all the credit and he doesn't deserve all the blame. A terrible call in 2004 against Oakland gave him a ring the Patriots never deserved to play for. Would it make him any less great? I don't think so. He'd still have 2 rings and 1 SB loss with an undefeated team in the regular season. Pretty ******* great. He's had a lot of luck to win 3 rings.

2009 he had a QB rating below 50. Threw 3 INTs. Joe Flacco threw for 34 ******* yards and beat him. Does anyone care? No. Sometimes that happens... great players having bad games against better teams with better players. Some players are on the short end of the stick more often than not.
I don't believe my comment was about Brady, it was about Peyton in general. And my response is about to be. In regards to Manning, we have to remember that even with the likes of Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, and Edgerrin James...when they were all playing together, that offense failed to get it done. I don't blame Peyton Manning for all of that, but he is responsible for a lot of his bad performances in the postseason. Yes he's faced some great defenses, but he's lost against some many different teams over the years you can't really say it's been one team that had his number. New England would be the closest. If we're talking GOAT, then I have to give a pass to Manning purely because of his postseason performances. You can blame the offensive line, receivers, backs, or whatever...but if this was the case, the Colts wouldn't have a great record every single season. Folks might say that it's because Peyton does it all himself that they have a good record ever year, but if this is the case why doesn't he "just do it himself" when January comes around?

As for his defense, like I said earlier, he's had good defenses in the playoffs, but still put the game in jeopardy due to his poor decisions. Him and the offense in general.

And Manning wasn't carried by the defense in that Super Bowl, but he was carried by that rushing attack that gained almost 200 yards. Rex Grossman turning it over X amount of times didn't help the Bears either.
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Old 11-13-2010, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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This is pretty great article on what Manning means to the colts.

http://bluesundaycolts.blogspot.com/...nd-how-to.html
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Old 11-13-2010, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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This is pretty great article on what Manning means to the colts.

http://bluesundaycolts.blogspot.com/...nd-how-to.html
I don't think anyone is saying he isn't observant and doesn't do a lot for his team. Despite the work he puts in though, that still doesn't mean he always makes the right decisions on the field. Especially when the game is on the line in the playoffs. You can blame the receivers, coaches, or the line, but some of the blame has to fall on Manning and his failure to execute. The author of that article even says Manning may have a tendency to get rattled in certain situations.

Oh and since when did Phil Simms make the Hall of Fame?
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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I don't believe my comment was about Brady, it was about Peyton in general. And my response is about to be. In regards to Manning, we have to remember that even with the likes of Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, and Edgerrin James...when they were all playing together, that offense failed to get it done. I don't blame Peyton Manning for all of that, but he is responsible for a lot of his bad performances in the postseason. Yes he's faced some great defenses, but he's lost against some many different teams over the years you can't really say it's been one team that had his number. New England would be the closest. If we're talking GOAT, then I have to give a pass to Manning purely because of his postseason performances. You can blame the offensive line, receivers, backs, or whatever...but if this was the case, the Colts wouldn't have a great record every single season. Folks might say that it's because Peyton does it all himself that they have a good record ever year, but if this is the case why doesn't he "just do it himself" when January comes around?

As for his defense, like I said earlier, he's had good defenses in the playoffs, but still put the game in jeopardy due to his poor decisions. Him and the offense in general.

And Manning wasn't carried by the defense in that Super Bowl, but he was carried by that rushing attack that gained almost 200 yards. Rex Grossman turning it over X amount of times didn't help the Bears either.
I understand that and I can understand where you're coming from, but when people talk about Peyton's lone SB win they give him a backhanded compliment (which you've done and I'll address momentarily with CAPS). They say he didn't play that well in the playoffs and the run defense stepped up. I don't hear anyone taking Brady's first ring away. 2001 (I said 2004 in my earlier post) had a bunch of luck. That was not a great team... by any means, and Brady wasn't even close to being a great player. They played a high powered Raiders offense in a blizzard, had a generous tuck rule call (which should have ended the game), a miracle kick to tie the game and then they played the Steelers who had a WR/RB playing QB to go along with atrocious special teams play, and then went to the Super Bowl and relied heavily on a defense that beat up the greatest show on turf while holding them to 17 points.

People are acting like Manning has been choking in every playoff game he's ever been in. The Patriots had their number. And by "their," I mean the Colts. The WHOLE TEAM, not just Manning. People are acting like 2003 and 2004 loses to NE are happening every year. Prior to Peyton winning a Super Bowl, I would have been arguing right along side you against Manning. Things, however, have drastically changed in the playoffs since 2002. I also think Peyton will get another ring since he has played so well in the playoffs for the last several years.

And Manning wasn't carried in the Super Bowl. That is so false it's disgrace to even say, let alone think to be true. HE HAD HELP!!!! There is a HUGE difference. Big Ben was carried in his first Super Bowl win. That's being carried. Trent Dilfer was carried for an entire season during his Super Bowl run. Brad Johnson... same scenario. They had great SB games. Doesn't really mean **** to me though.

Peyton played well in his Super Bowl. Rex had 2 turnovers. Both INTs. He fumbled a couple snaps because it was pouring rain, but they were recovered by the Bears. The last INT was in the final minutes of the game by Bob Sanders... after the game was already over (due to his 1st INT to Hayden that he returned for a TD) had little impact on the outcome of the game. No impact actually. He played well after a bad first QT where they trailed 14 to 3 or something like that.

His shootout with NE in the 2006 AFC Championship game? He greatly outplayed Brady. He made about twice as many plays as Brady did and they only won by 4 points. The Colts were getting embarrassed. Down 21 to 6 at the half. Peyton brings them back, but its like it never even happened. "Peyton was average in the playoffs. He was carried by a rushing attack and a defense." Peyton takes his team down and scores with 1 minute left in the game (38-34 taking their first and only lead of the game) making more throws while getting hit in the face and dropping dimes all over the field than just about anything I've ever seen, yet Peyton had a bad playoffs. With 1 minute left and 2 times outs Brady had the ball, and threw a game ending INT to Marlin Jackson. Choke job? I don't hear anyone bringing that game up. Why not? Peyton was running his team up and down the field for the entire second half. Does anyone want to talk about that footprint? No, they'd rather talk about the Kansas City game where he threw 3 INTs (while also going 30 of 38 and controlling the clock and field position with the short passing game and an effective running game). If he threw for a perfect passer rating, then people would have said, "Well, it was Kansas City." Peyton has never been carried. If he plays like dog **** (Ravens game in 2006) and they win, then it's a rarity. Extremely rare. It simply doesn't happen. Without Manning that team is garbage without a life or a leader.


Picking and choosing what greatness we want to talk about is my big issue. People act like Peyton hasn't been great in the playoffs. He has. People are acting like Brady hasn't been just as bad, if not worse than Manning in the playoffs, but he has. People act like Brady has been a God in the playoffs. He's been great, but he's also had his moments which have been terrible. People tend not to care as much with Brady since he's been terrible AFTER he's already won rings. Peyton was terrible before he did anything in the playoffs so there was this stigma and reputation that built up with both players that has had a positive effect for Brady (where's he now untouchable) and a very negative effect for Peyton (where's still a loser that rode the coat tails of a defense to 1 ring and choked in his other SB).

Since Brady's last Super Bowl win, Peyton has outplayed Brady in the playoffs... and by a wide margin. But, no one really cares about that.
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Old 11-14-2010, 04:21 AM    (permalink
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That's a great post Big Banger. Totally agree with the stigma and reputation point you made regards both players.
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Old 11-14-2010, 06:38 AM    (permalink
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I understand that and I can understand where you're coming from, but when people talk about Peyton's lone SB win they give him a backhanded compliment (which you've done and I'll address momentarily with CAPS). They say he didn't play that well in the playoffs and the run defense stepped up. I don't hear anyone taking Brady's first ring away. 2001 (I said 2004 in my earlier post) had a bunch of luck. That was not a great team... by any means, and Brady wasn't even close to being a great player. They played a high powered Raiders offense in a blizzard, had a generous tuck rule call (which should have ended the game), a miracle kick to tie the game and then they played the Steelers who had a WR/RB playing QB to go along with atrocious special teams play, and then went to the Super Bowl and relied heavily on a defense that beat up the greatest show on turf while holding them to 17 points.

People are acting like Manning has been choking in every playoff game he's ever been in. The Patriots had their number. And by "their," I mean the Colts. The WHOLE TEAM, not just Manning. People are acting like 2003 and 2004 loses to NE are happening every year. Prior to Peyton winning a Super Bowl, I would have been arguing right along side you against Manning. Things, however, have drastically changed in the playoffs since 2002. I also think Peyton will get another ring since he has played so well in the playoffs for the last several years.

And Manning wasn't carried in the Super Bowl. That is so false it's disgrace to even say, let alone think to be true. HE HAD HELP!!!! There is a HUGE difference. Big Ben was carried in his first Super Bowl win. That's being carried. Trent Dilfer was carried for an entire season during his Super Bowl run. Brad Johnson... same scenario. They had great SB games. Doesn't really mean **** to me though.

Peyton played well in his Super Bowl. Rex had 2 turnovers. Both INTs. He fumbled a couple snaps because it was pouring rain, but they were recovered by the Bears. The last INT was in the final minutes of the game by Bob Sanders... after the game was already over (due to his 1st INT to Hayden that he returned for a TD) had little impact on the outcome of the game. No impact actually. He played well after a bad first QT where they trailed 14 to 3 or something like that.

His shootout with NE in the 2006 AFC Championship game? He greatly outplayed Brady. He made about twice as many plays as Brady did and they only won by 4 points. The Colts were getting embarrassed. Down 21 to 6 at the half. Peyton brings them back, but its like it never even happened. "Peyton was average in the playoffs. He was carried by a rushing attack and a defense." Peyton takes his team down and scores with 1 minute left in the game (38-34 taking their first and only lead of the game) making more throws while getting hit in the face and dropping dimes all over the field than just about anything I've ever seen, yet Peyton had a bad playoffs. With 1 minute left and 2 times outs Brady had the ball, and threw a game ending INT to Marlin Jackson. Choke job? I don't hear anyone bringing that game up. Why not? Peyton was running his team up and down the field for the entire second half. Does anyone want to talk about that footprint? No, they'd rather talk about the Kansas City game where he threw 3 INTs (while also going 30 of 38 and controlling the clock and field position with the short passing game and an effective running game). If he threw for a perfect passer rating, then people would have said, "Well, it was Kansas City." Peyton has never been carried. If he plays like dog **** (Ravens game in 2006) and they win, then it's a rarity. Extremely rare. It simply doesn't happen. Without Manning that team is garbage without a life or a leader.


Picking and choosing what greatness we want to talk about is my big issue. People act like Peyton hasn't been great in the playoffs. He has. People are acting like Brady hasn't been just as bad, if not worse than Manning in the playoffs, but he has. People act like Brady has been a God in the playoffs. He's been great, but he's also had his moments which have been terrible. People tend not to care as much with Brady since he's been terrible AFTER he's already won rings. Peyton was terrible before he did anything in the playoffs so there was this stigma and reputation that built up with both players that has had a positive effect for Brady (where's he now untouchable) and a very negative effect for Peyton (where's still a loser that rode the coat tails of a defense to 1 ring and choked in his other SB).

Since Brady's last Super Bowl win, Peyton has outplayed Brady in the playoffs... and by a wide margin. But, no one really cares about that.
In the game against New England in the 2006 playoffs, it did come down to Peyton and he didn't choke. The two games prior to that though it was the defense that showed up. The only reason I may seem like I'm nit-picking is because people bring up the G.O.A.T. label and want to place it on Manning even though he has a 9-9 record in the post season...and their excuse for that is that it's the "team's fault" and couldn't possibly be Peyton's...and that other guys like Joe Montana simply benefited from being in a good system and on a good team. Yet people don't seem to want to admit that despite any advantage that guys like Montana had, they still had to actually make the throw to make things happen. Or at least not make the decision that kills the team's chances to win.

And no one talks about Ben Rothelisberger and Trent Dilfer being "carried" in certain points in their careers because they aren't being considered as the G.O.A.T.

As for Brady, he has had a lot of luck in certain situations. Especially the 2001 playoffs (although you shouldn't make excuses for playing the Steelers...you play who you play). Perhaps if Peyton Manning had Adam Vinatieri instead of Mike Vanderjagt, things would have been different in a couple of playoff games. But if we're talking G.O.A.T. should a scenario where a kicker has to win the game with the G.O.A.T. as your quarterback even be necessary? But let's not just blame his supporting cast. If Peyton Manning can work his magic in the regular season with whomever he plays, then he should be able to get the job done in the postseason. Just seems like there is always an excuse for Peyton. As if it were impossible for him to screw up despite how studious he may be. It's pretty ridiculous.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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In the game against New England in the 2006 playoffs, it did come down to Peyton and he didn't choke. The two games prior to that though it was the defense that showed up. The only reason I may seem like I'm nit-picking is because people bring up the G.O.A.T. label and want to place it on Manning even though he has a 9-9 record in the post season...and their excuse for that is that it's the "team's fault" and couldn't possibly be Peyton's...and that other guys like Joe Montana simply benefited from being in a good system and on a good team. Yet people don't seem to want to admit that despite any advantage that guys like Montana had, they still had to actually make the throw to make things happen. Or at least not make the decision that kills the team's chances to win.

And no one talks about Ben Rothelisberger and Trent Dilfer being "carried" in certain points in their careers because they aren't being considered as the G.O.A.T.

I was giving you an example of what being "carried" looks like. Being carried is playing so poorly that you have no business winning, but you do because of defense, special teams or a running game. When you say carried, I imagine just about any QB being able to win because of how well the rest of the team played. Peyton didn't have a QB rating of 19 in the playoffs. He didn't complete 25% of his passes. It's not like he didn't make plays and set his teammates up. He didn't play as well as he has, but he still had great moments and 3 good performances in 2006 playoffs, 1 performance that should be legendary, career defining performance.

As for Brady, he has had a lot of luck in certain situations. Especially the 2001 playoffs (although you shouldn't make excuses for playing the Steelers...you play who you play). Perhaps if Peyton Manning had Adam Vinatieri instead of Mike Vanderjagt, things would have been different in a couple of playoff games. But if we're talking G.O.A.T. should a scenario where a kicker has to win the game with the G.O.A.T. as your quarterback even be necessary? But let's not just blame his supporting cast. If Peyton Manning can work his magic in the regular season with whomever he plays, then he should be able to get the job done in the postseason. Just seems like there is always an excuse for Peyton. As if it were impossible for him to screw up despite how studious he may be. It's pretty ridiculous.
You are nit-picking, which is my whole point. The standard that Peyton is held to is simply unreasonable (a lot has to do with media scrutiny intensifying and more and more outlets with more and more detractors attempting to make a name for themselves in a knee jerk, no backup or proof business). I'm gonna bash Joe Montana for a second (even though he's easily my #2 QB of all-time and a top 10 player). In 1993 he should have taken the Chiefs to the Super Bowl, but against the Bills in the AFC Championship game he choked. 9/23 (39%) for 125 yards (5.4 Avg), 0 TD and 1 INT with a QB Rating of 39.2.

1987 against the Vikings he went 12/26 (46.2%) for 109 yards (4.2 Avg), 0 TD and 1 INT with a QB Rating of 42.0.

Or how about against the great Giants defense in 1985 & 1986? Both loses.

1985 - 26/47 (55.3%) for 296 yards (6.3 Avg), 0 TD and 1 INT with a QB Rating of 65.6.

1986 - 8/15 (53.3%) for 98 yards (6.5 Avg), 0 TD and 2 INT with a QB Rating of 34.2.

When you have the best offense in the NFL with a revolutionary scheme that was 10 years ahead of it's time, you need play big against the best defenses. I don't care about 55 points against a terrible Denver Broncos team that was overmatched in the Super Bowl.

1984? He was carried in the playoffs. Against the Giants (once again) he went 25/39 (64.1%) for 309 yards (7.9 Avg), 3 TDs and 3 INTs with a QB Rating of 82.1. Pretty fcking average if you ask me.

Against the Bears he went 18/34 (52.9%) for 233 yards (6.9 Avg), 1 TD and 2 INTs with a QB Rating of 60.0. Carried? I'd say so. His defense allowed 10 points in the playoff games before matching up with Marino in the Super Bowl. Lucky for him to be on such a great defense. Otherwise he probably would have had a first round knock out loss like Peyton Manning.

Now I'm going to blow off his Super Bowl assault of the Dolphins and just say, "Well, the Dolphins defense sucked. Any QB could have done that." I'm just gonna go ahead and take that ring away from him since he was "carried" in the playoffs.

I hope you don't mind me nitpicking, but when you really look at certain stats and certain games, Joe Montana kinda sucked balls and choked in the playoffs.


For those that don't know or didn't catch on, that was sarcasm. Full of sarcasm.

There's a reason why no one ever brings those games up. It's the playoffs, they were great defenses and that is going to happen to the best QBs that will ever step foot on a football field. But let's all act like Peyton Manning is the only QB that has ever played poorly in the playoffs. Let's act like Peyton had a dominating defense like Montana had or Bradshaw had. Or an offensive line that was competent enough to actually push a defense around from time to time and resemble somewhat of a balanced offense on somewhat of a consistent basis in the playoffs.

You can't compare John Elway's first 8 years of his career and then compare his last 8 year's and say he was any better of a QB at the end of his career because he went 2-0 in the Super Bowl compared to 0-3. He was a great QB throughout his career, he took terrible teams deep in the playoffs and played against teams that he had no chance of winning. He was overmatched in his first 3 Super Bowls. He played poorly and he got his ass kicked. Does that mean, for the first 14 years, he was a good, but not all-time great QB? **** no. He finally had a rushing attack and a solid, top 10 caliber defense. Very few QBs have won without those 2 things. Elway would have been an all-time great QB with a ring or not. I don't hear anyone bringing up his third Super Bowl game against SF and his QB rating of 19.4. No, now it has become white washed over with blanket statements like, "After losing 3 Super Bowls in the 80s, Elway won back-to-back Super Bowls to finish his career." The Super Bowl is the end all and be all. As time passes, winning a Super Bowl clears up any kind of playoff defeat prior to it... no matter how ugly or bad it was. Elway is a perfect example. If he never won or went back to the Super Bowl, he probably would have dropped on this list and that last Super Bowl defeat would be forever talked about. It shouldn't take away from the player that he was, but it certainly would.

You can't blame Dan Marino for seeing the Super Bowl 1 time and losing to one of the greatest QBs of all time and against the team of the ******* decade. He was never on a great team to actually do anything special. With QBs, you simply cannot point to Super Bowls and say, "Thats the mark of a great QB." The **** it is. You don't just start ranking them on Championships. It's a team sport. It's a ******* team sport. It doesn't go Otto Graham, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Tom Brady, Troy Aikmen and then everyone else.

Is Barry Sanders less of a RB than Walter Payton because Payton has a ring and Barry doesn't? It's ******* preposterous to even think that.

For me, like I've said, Payton Manning is the best QB ever. Then Joe Montana, Dan Marino, John Elway and Steve Young. I like those 5. All clutch players, all great in big games and all make players around them better.


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But if we're talking G.O.A.T. should a scenario where a kicker has to win the game with the G.O.A.T. as your quarterback even be necessary?
Has any QB relied on a kicker making more big kicks than Tom Brady? I don't know. Would Jim Kelley be on this list if he had a Vinatieri like kick? Would Bill Parcells legacy be diminished? 1 and 3 in the Super Bowl looks a lot worse than 2-1.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Yes but you sound foolish for bashing Joe Montana because he actually has three more rings than Peyton, and has the most wins in the postseason all time. His resume for being considered the G.O.A.T. is a lot better. Now did Joe have bad moments in the playoffs? Yes. Did he have injury problems? Yes. Did he play around a lot of great talent with a great coaching staff? Yes. But at the end of the day he still had to make the plays on the field or at least not make the plays on the field that kills your teams chances.

By the way, stats and QB ratings are going to look a lot worse back in the 80's. I know you were being sarcastic, but if you're going to nitpick...well...yeah...

It may sound like nit-picking in Peyton Manning's case, but when you bring the G.O.A.T. debate up, his 9-9 postseason record does stand in the way. Even if Peyton is more observant and does more for his team, at the end of the day he has to take some responsibility for his losses if he is crowned for his wins. Like I said earlier, if Peyton can "do it all himself" in September, October, November, and December...why can't he "do it all himself" in January? When we bring the G.O.A.T. debate up, I think nit-picking is warranted for anyone.

As for Tom Brady and the kicker, I don't think he's the G.O.A.T. so that point is moot.

You believe Manning is the greatest quarterback that has ever played. I can respect your opinion. I just don't agree with it.
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Old 11-14-2010, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Has any QB relied on a kicker making more big kicks than Tom Brady? I don't know. Would Jim Kelley be on this list if he had a Vinatieri like kick? Would Bill Parcells legacy be diminished? 1 and 3 in the Super Bowl looks a lot worse than 2-1.
There is a very fine line between Jim Kelly and Tom Brady both having one Super Bowl ring. That fine line was Scott Norwood and Adam V. Of course the Pats would have had a 2nd chance in OT and we'll never know how that would have played out. How would the Top 100 look then?

Real Clutch was Big Ben and Joe Montana marching their teams down the field while behind in the score and throwing the winning TD pass in the last minute. Actually Brady's most clutch moment for me in a Super Bowl was in their defeat to the Giants when he threw the go-ahead TD pass to Randy Moss with approx 2 mins left. He was then helpless as he watched Tyree's Helmet Catch and Eli to Plaxico. Further proof that TEAMS WIN Championships.

I'm not having a pop at Brady. Just saying what Big Ben and Montana did was really clutch as their teams were losing while the scores were tied on both of Brady's drives to set up Adam V. If those drives stalled they still (might) get a 2nd chance in OT.

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Old 11-14-2010, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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There is a very fine line between Jim Kelly and Tom Brady both having one Super Bowl ring. That fine line was Scott Norwood and Adam V. Of course the Pats would have had a 2nd chance in OT and we'll never know how that would have played out. How would the Top 100 look then?

Real Clutch was Big Ben and Joe Montana marching their thems down the field while behind in the score and throwing the winning TD pass in the last minute. Actually Brady's most clutch moment for me in a Super Bowl was in their defeat to the Giants when he threw the go-ahead TD pass to Randy Moss with approx 2 mins left. He was then helpless as he watched Tyree's Helmet Catch and Eli to Plaxico. Further proof that TEAMS WIN Championships.

I'm not having a pop at Brady. Just saying what Big Ben and Montana did was really clutch as their teams were losing while the scores were tied on both of Brady's drives to set up Adam V. If those drives stalled they still (might) get a 2nd chance in OT.
Yeah well Jim Kelly had four chances and definitely just choked. Except maybe in his first Super Bowl. Every other game was a blowout. The entire team choked.
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Old 11-14-2010, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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One of the great things about football is that there is an arguement for who is the GOAT.

Personally I would say that Manning is the single best player I've witnessed as far as his impact on a game. I only started watching in the Manning/Brady era so my opinion is limited to those two really, but for me Manning is the better player. Perhaps not the more successful on a team level, but still the better player.

I also tend to look at the "choke" thing on another level, the fact that both Brady and Manning have pretty equal numbers of great and poor games in the playoffs yet vastly different records says a lot to me about their teams respective strength. The Colts lose when Manning struggles, the pats often still won. It says both that Manning is more important and directly related to that, that the Pats were stronger teams.

Manning just keeps winning, despite who he has around him and realistically has had great success. Put him in the NFC where he doesn't face the Chargers, Steelers and Patriots in the playoffs and his record would be very different. That is another problem with using the playoffs solely to judge the players. It was possible to go 1-1 in the playoffs and have played the "real" superbowl over the last decade. The AFC has dominated the superbowl but more so has dominated the top teams as well.

Winning the superbowl is nice but it is a team achievement and should not be the ultimate in judging a QB, imo.

I'm not saying Manning is the GOAT, as I said at the start, I didn't watch the other contenders, but as much as I dislike him, he is the best I've seen by a decent amount and Brady is pretty awesome but I'm taking Manning!
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Old 11-15-2010, 04:13 AM    (permalink
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There is a very fine line between Jim Kelly and Tom Brady both having one Super Bowl ring. That fine line was Scott Norwood and Adam V. Of course the Pats would have had a 2nd chance in OT and we'll never know how that would have played out. How would the Top 100 look then?

Real Clutch was Big Ben and Joe Montana marching their teams down the field while behind in the score and throwing the winning TD pass in the last minute. Actually Brady's most clutch moment for me in a Super Bowl was in their defeat to the Giants when he threw the go-ahead TD pass to Randy Moss with approx 2 mins left. He was then helpless as he watched Tyree's Helmet Catch and Eli to Plaxico. Further proof that TEAMS WIN Championships.

I'm not having a pop at Brady. Just saying what Big Ben and Montana did was really clutch as their teams were losing while the scores were tied on both of Brady's drives to set up Adam V. If those drives stalled they still (might) get a 2nd chance in OT.
What are you talking about? The bottom line as the other 2 did, Brady marched down the field and put his team in position to win the game. You are really going to try and discredit is "clutch" ability because he won superbowls where the game was tied instead of down by a couple points?

Give me a break..

2 Minutes to go, in the superbowl the game is tied he marches the offensive down the field and put them in position to win the game, period. That is clutch, that is icy veins. There is no other way you can spin it. Brady is the most clutch QB of the last generation, its not really close either.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:54 AM    (permalink
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What are you talking about? The bottom line as the other 2 did, Brady marched down the field and put his team in position to win the game. You are really going to try and discredit is "clutch" ability because he won superbowls where the game was tied instead of down by a couple points?

Give me a break..

2 Minutes to go, in the superbowl the game is tied he marches the offensive down the field and put them in position to win the game, period. That is clutch, that is icy veins. There is no other way you can spin it. Brady is the most clutch QB of the last generation, its not really close either.

Where did I say it wasn't clutch? I think I made it quite clear in my previous post that I wasn't trying to discredit Brady but to instead suggest just how fine a line there is between winning and losing when the fate of those first two Super Bowls rested with the right foot of a teammate. If the Pats miss both those kicks, are unfortunate to lose the coin toss in OT then lose the game without once regaining possession, is Brady any less skilled as a QB? Of course not, just a far more unlucky one. His legacy would be different of course but in both scenarios he could not have done any more for his team.

Brady was as helpless in those situations as Jim Kelly was in SB 25 when Norwood missed from 47. Both Kelly and Brady did what they were supposed to do. They both put their kicker in position to win from almost exactly the same point on the field. It just so happens that one QB had their kicker miss and the other saw his kicker make both their winning FG chances. That's why there's such a fine line between Kelly and Brady being 1-1 in rings. That's why I'm reluctant to rank QBs on the basis of team achievements when they are so many factors that go into winning games. Bradshaw and Aikman are 7-0 in Super Bowls with 3 MVPs between them but are not in my Top 10 QBs of all-time. I have Brady ranked ahead clearly of both of them and still clearly would if he had won 1 ring instead of 3 because regardless of team achievements he would still be a better QB. Why do you think Marino and his 0-1 SB record had clear daylight in the Top 100 between him and Bradshaw/Aikman? Because regardless of team achievements he was simply a better player.

The 2nd point I'm making is that Brady was also not in the do-or-die situations that Montana and Roethlisberger found themselves in for those first two Pats victories. Yes, Brady was under immense pressure and helped put the Pats in position for victory, but it was actually still down to Vinatieri with the ice veins kicking FGs of 48 and 41 yds to clinch victory, and neither one a gimme. The Pats would still have that 'get out of jail' card with OT had those kicks been missed.

I still stand by my opinion that Brady's late TD drive while trailing against the Giants was more impressive and far more clutch than both drives to set-up those game-winning kicks from Vinatieri. Brady was under more pressure with his team trailing, multiplied with the extra burden of the perfect season, and ultimately gave his team the lead with the TD pass to Moss. The fact the Giants made a miraculous late drive to win the game while Brady stood helpless on the sidelines should not diminish his performance, his ability or how we rank him as a QB.

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Old 11-15-2010, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I know it was done for strictly rhetorical purposes, but DAMN to rip on Joe Montana's lowlights in the postseason to rationalize Peyton's underwhelming performance in the postseason is just beyond wrong.

You take Joe Montana off those four 49ers SB teams, they win at best 2 Lombardis, and I'm being generous.

If not for Joe Montana, the Bengals would have won a Lombardi by now if not two, Dan Marino would have his SB ring, and either the SKins or the Giants would have been the team of the decade in the '80s.

How many SBs would the Bears have won if not for Montana??

In all seriousness, Montana and the 49ers changed the course of NFL history for both rival franchises and HOF players alike. Those 49er teams ripped people's hearts out.

If you get a chance, take a look at the teams Montana had to defeat to reach the SB, and when the 49ers did lose in the postseason, I think every single one of those teams won the Lombardi.

Comparing Manning to Montana is insane in my book. I get the point you were making, but still.

It's like comparing the amount of games Walter Payton ran for less than 80 yards to TJ Duckett to argue that TJ was actually better than his stats.

Given that Montana played on better overall teams than Peyton, but Montana and later Jerry Rice were the reason those teams were so great, even more so than their talent on defense.

Everyone remember the pass to Santonio Holmes in the corner of the endzone from Roethlisberger to beat the Cards in the SB; Montana made at least a dozen or so similar plays in the playoffs.

Bottom line, Manning is in his 13th NFL season, has thrown for over 4000 yards 10 times and has nearly 400 TDs in the regular season. Two SB appearances, choked one away, won one against one of the worst QBs in NFL SB history.
Peyton IMO needs to step up his game in January before anyone besides a Colts fan considers him the GOAT.
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Old 11-15-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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for ***** sake, we're still talking about Peyton?
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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I know it was done for strictly rhetorical purposes, but DAMN to rip on Joe Montana's lowlights in the postseason to rationalize Peyton's underwhelming performance in the postseason is just beyond wrong.

You take Joe Montana off those four 49ers SB teams, they win at best 2 Lombardis, and I'm being generous.

If not for Joe Montana, the Bengals would have won a Lombardi by now if not two, Dan Marino would have his SB ring, and either the SKins or the Giants would have been the team of the decade in the '80s.

How many SBs would the Bears have won if not for Montana??

In all seriousness, Montana and the 49ers changed the course of NFL history for both rival franchises and HOF players alike. Those 49er teams ripped people's hearts out.

If you get a chance, take a look at the teams Montana had to defeat to reach the SB, and when the 49ers did lose in the postseason, I think every single one of those teams won the Lombardi.

Comparing Manning to Montana is insane in my book. I get the point you were making, but still.

It's like comparing the amount of games Walter Payton ran for less than 80 yards to TJ Duckett to argue that TJ was actually better than his stats.

Given that Montana played on better overall teams than Peyton, but Montana and later Jerry Rice were the reason those teams were so great, even more so than their talent on defense.

Everyone remember the pass to Santonio Holmes in the corner of the endzone from Roethlisberger to beat the Cards in the SB; Montana made at least a dozen or so similar plays in the playoffs.

Bottom line, Manning is in his 13th NFL season, has thrown for over 4000 yards 10 times and has nearly 400 TDs in the regular season. Two SB appearances, choked one away, won one against one of the worst QBs in NFL SB history.
Peyton IMO needs to step up his game in January before anyone besides a Colts fan considers him the GOAT.
Well said.
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Hey remember this? Still agree with the list?
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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Otto Graham is the GOAT. Nobody else had his combination of statistical domination and postseason domination.
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