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Old 03-24-2007, 08:51 PM    (permalink
LSUALUM99
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That is a valid opinion, Oz. But it's not any legal bias. If you feel that way it's fine, but when people try to make it some sort of legal or issue or (laughably) a constitutional issue it's rediculous.

It's bad enough some kids try and discuss issues they know nothing about. But when they try to talk about Corporate America as if they have even the slightest clue, it's irritating.

Your argument is akin to trying to get out of a speeding ticket because the cop didn't also catch the other cars speeding. What other people do or get away with, when you are also commiting the same infraction, is irrelavent.

And for those that don't understand what I mean by infraction, I mean it in the context of embarrassing the NFL.
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by smittyjs View Post
Oh stop your comment on something well above your head, i wouldn't care if they suspended him a year(as stated in the titans thread), but if your going to suspened him, then your going to need to suspend(which most NFL fan would start whinning at that moment).
Hahaha...over my head? How in the world is this over my head? I'm pretty sure that I'm capable of discussing league infractions, it's not that complicated (although apparently it seems to be.

Not to mention that you didn't even finish your thought. "Your (it's you're by the way smartass) going to need to suspend"

Suspend what? What does that mean? Do you mean suspend every violator? Go for it. So far there has yet to be a single violator to the degree of Pac-Man except for maybe Chris Henry, so I don't think that would be an issue at all.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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I think this is the wrong thing to do with someone like this... Pacman Jones needs football believe it or not... He has a rough life out of football it seems and suspending him for one year could make his life spiral out of control... I would give him one more chance and if he screws up then you can suspend him for a long time.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Hahaha...over my head? How in the world is this over my head? I'm pretty sure that I'm capable of discussing league infractions, it's not that complicated (although apparently it seems to be.

Not to mention that you didn't even finish your thought. "Your (it's you're by the way smartass) going to need to suspend"

Suspend what? What does that mean? Do you mean suspend every violator? Go for it. So far there has yet to be a single violator to the degree of Pac-Man except for maybe Chris Henry, so I don't think that would be an issue at all.
He wasn't arguing for Pac Man, he was just saying if you suspend him then you will have to suspend other players as well. And I believe that was the end of his thought.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha...over my head? How in the world is this over my head? I'm pretty sure that I'm capable of discussing league infractions, it's not that complicated (although apparently it seems to be.

Not to mention that you didn't even finish your thought. "Your (it's you're by the way smartass) going to need to suspend"

Suspend what? What does that mean? Do you mean suspend every violator? Go for it. So far there has yet to be a single violator to the degree of Pac-Man except for maybe Chris Henry, so I don't think that would be an issue at all.
Yes i meant every violator ST, Leonard Little, Tank Johnson, Jamal lewis, Steve McNair, Dhani Jones, Reggie McNeal, Terrence Kiel, Barrett Brooks, Eric Steinbach, Cortland Finnegan, A.J. Nicholson, Ricky Manning Jr...to name a few that would also need sometime of suspension along with Pac Attack and herny.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Leonard Little should be in jail for the rest of this life. Don't even get me started on that.
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Old 03-24-2007, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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i personally think it should of been longer. In all honesty he has been in so many legal problems since he has been in the NFL ,time for him to hold some sort of responsibility for his actions. Everyone wants to give guys 100000 million breaks but guy like Pacman makes everyone else and the organization look bad because of his actions. NFL can do what ever it pleases if they truely feel that pacman isnt following the rules and conduct they believe that he should be conducting him self in they have every right to suspend him for a year. It truely effects everyone especially his team even though these are off the field issues.
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by LSUALUM99 View Post
That is a valid opinion, Oz. But it's not any legal bias. If you feel that way it's fine, but when people try to make it some sort of legal or issue or (laughably) a constitutional issue it's rediculous.

It's bad enough some kids try and discuss issues they know nothing about. But when they try to talk about Corporate America as if they have even the slightest clue, it's irritating.

Your argument is akin to trying to get out of a speeding ticket because the cop didn't also catch the other cars speeding. What other people do or get away with, when you are also commiting the same infraction, is irrelavent.

And for those that don't understand what I mean by infraction, I mean it in the context of embarrassing the NFL.
I don't agree with the speeding ticket comparison at all. That would suggest the NFL aren't aware of the other incident's specifics - i.e. who did them and what they did - which they are. It would be more akin to pulling over 10 people and only handing out a sentence under the "new laws" to one even though all 10 were done before the new laws were even being discussed.

Also, how do you clearly define embarrassing the NFL? Is it not embarrassing when you hear stories about Peyton Manning charging a kids family $200,000 for a birthday party appearance? I've also heard stories from pretty reliable people that suggest there is a boys club/scouts type thing still paying off his appearance fee from years ago. Again, this goes back to the media playing too much of a role if the NFL are creating new laws - just because they choose not to make a media scene out of this stuff and other stuff like it because of the player involved, that means it isn't detriment to the NFL's image? Would the NFL consider that a burden on their image? It's all very vague. They'd have to specifically define every single scenario where a player isn't breaking the law but he is apparently breaking NFL law, and the gauge would be how badly the media respond? That's just dumb.
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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BTW LSUALUM99:

Quote:
Colorado law makes it "a discriminatory or unfair employment
practice for an employer to terminate the employment of any employee
due to that employee's engaging in any lawful activity off the
premises of the employer during nonworking hours...."
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/emp08.htm

Granted it does mention termination and not suspension and that's just for Colorado (it mentions 15 states have similar laws), but it's an example that I think this area isn't black and white itself and I think there's a good chance it would go to court, either with Pacman or someone else down the line.

I just think it's a mess waiting to happen and that sticking to disciplinary actions for actual law breakers is more than enough to address image concerns. Honestly I don't even see why people seem to connect what stupid stuff Pacman does to either the Titans or the NFL - his off the field actions don't influence my opinion of either in the slightest because I don't expect the NFL or the Titans to act as the morality police. I expect the NFL to act on players who break the law and I expect the Titans to act on players who negatively influence their team like TO did for the Eagles. If Pacman wants to hang around thugs and come inches away from losing his career every weekend that's his choice, I don't see why anyone thinks that makes the NFL look bad and if they were truly serious about it, they'd screen these players before they even entered the league in the first place. I don't think it's so much the NFL trying to think of a long term image solution than it is the NFL trying to find someone to use as a image "quick fix".

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Old 03-24-2007, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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It appears that a lot of people have bought hook, line, and sinker into the club owner's version of what happened...this, from a guy who wasn't even there, and conducted "his own investigation" to ascertain the chain of events.

Funny how not one of the club owner's sources has come forward to offer an eyewitness account of what happened....absolutely nobody has corraborated his story. Kind of odd, considering the high-profile nature and massive media coverage of the incident, wouldn't you say? Until somebody steps forward to confirm Susnar's version of events, I'll go with the results of the official police investigation. The fact that no charges have been filed after six weeks leads me to believe that Robert Susnar's account bears little resemblance to the truth....he's just trying to cover his own butt and deflect any potential liability on the part of the club.

I'm not saying Pacman doesn't deserve a suspension....he absolutely does, if for no other reason, then pure stupidity. The Titans gave him a one-game suspension last year, which obviously wasn't enough.....something has to open this kid's eyes. However, I believe a one-year suspension is beyond excessive.

What exactly has Pacman done to warrant a full year's suspension, and about $2-3M in lost wages? Granted, his track record is long, but each of the incidents has boiled down to immaturity and poor judgement. Everyone will agree that he's a stupid-ass punk who needs a strong dose of reality, but I believe a 4-8 game suspension would get the point across just fine. Extending it to a full year would accomplish nothing, and could actually be quite detrimental for a guy as volatile as Jones; keeping him away for a couple months would allow him to maintain a level of focus....a full year's downtime could prove to be rope with which he hangs himself.

Give him a lengthy suspension, and a full year of mandatory counseling...whatever it takes. It would just be a terrible shame for him to become the fall guy for the new commissioner to make his mark. Players like Jones don't come along very often...the kid is an elite performer at two different positions, and is an unbelievable playmaker in clutch situations. For those who haven't watched him, he's every bit as exciting and dangerous as Vince Young. With proper direction, Pacman could be another superstar in the vein of Deion Sanders, an example of how the conduct policy can work to help players, as opposed to simply penalizing them.

Another important consideration is how Jones' suspension affects the Titans as a team. Losing Jones for a full season would be a catastrophic blow to a team that has done nothing to warrant such a penalty. It would be one thing if they had turned the other cheek to Jones' past incidents, but they didn't. The club has done everything in their power to address his issues, including a suspension last year that cost Pacman a six-figure paycheck. (Mind you, this was a team-administered suspension....the league had nothing to do with it. In fact, I don't know that Jones has ever been disciplined by the league office.)
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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I think this is the wrong thing to do with someone like this... Pacman Jones needs football believe it or not... He has a rough life out of football it seems and suspending him for one year could make his life spiral out of control... I would give him one more chance and if he screws up then you can suspend him for a long time.
It's not like he stole a cookie out of the cookie jar. He knew what he was doing, and what the punishment would be.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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It's not like he stole a cookie out of the cookie jar. He knew what he was doing, and what the punishment would be.
Yeah, and how many crimes has he been convicted of?

I HATE Pacman Jones, I am just saying, you take football away from him for a year, what does he do?

Hang out with his friends that are bad already, the dude needs football, tell him he has one more chance, and if he messes up again hes out of the league FOR GOOD.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:24 AM    (permalink
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I still don't really see the point in penalizing anyone under a new rule when the infraction(s) occurred before it was inducted. His recent events have opened the NFL's eyes it seems, what if it has opened Pacman's eyes once and for all too? Sending him out for a year to me is the NFL being too eager to make an example of someone. Put the new rules in, clean the slate and wait for the first case where the player acted against the rules AFTER they were made and make an example of him. If that someone is Pacman then he well and truly deserves it.
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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Given that the new rule is backdated, what is Ray Lewis' punishment for being around a guy who murdered someone? Last time I checked, murder is a hell of a lot more serious than assault, which is all Pacman was around.

You cant suspend someone for who they hang around with, shouldnt suspend someone using a new rule for old acts(not crimes because Pacman hasnt committed one) and I dont think you should punish the fans because you dont like someone or who they associate with. By all means bring down the hammer if and when he does something(or anyone else), but until then the league should stay out of it.

Aside from that, does anyone else find it funny that the league cares more about a guy whose friend gets in trouble than a guy who cheated(Merriman)?

Also, I dont think you can entirely blame the shooter anyway, I've been hitting clubs for 4+ years now a good 3 nights a week and I have never once been shot at, or had a gun pulled on me, never been in a fight, it takes two to tango and at some point if you are out looking for fights, what happens in that fight is your responsibility.
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Old 03-25-2007, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/...plate=printart

One of Pac's biggest critics posts his views.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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About time. Maybe it will send messages to other players and wanna be ganstas.
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by OzTitan View Post
BTW LSUALUM99:



http://www.lectlaw.com/files/emp08.htm

Granted it does mention termination and not suspension and that's just for Colorado (it mentions 15 states have similar laws), but it's an example that I think this area isn't black and white itself and I think there's a good chance it would go to court, either with Pacman or someone else down the line.

I just think it's a mess waiting to happen and that sticking to disciplinary actions for actual law breakers is more than enough to address image concerns. Honestly I don't even see why people seem to connect what stupid stuff Pacman does to either the Titans or the NFL - his off the field actions don't influence my opinion of either in the slightest because I don't expect the NFL or the Titans to act as the morality police. I expect the NFL to act on players who break the law and I expect the Titans to act on players who negatively influence their team like TO did for the Eagles. If Pacman wants to hang around thugs and come inches away from losing his career every weekend that's his choice, I don't see why anyone thinks that makes the NFL look bad and if they were truly serious about it, they'd screen these players before they even entered the league in the first place. I don't think it's so much the NFL trying to think of a long term image solution than it is the NFL trying to find someone to use as a image "quick fix".

From that same article you forgot to print this quote:

"If the Constitution doesn't apply to the private workplace, what
does?

The vast majority of American employees, of whom there are 100
million in all, are governed by a doctrine called "employment at
will." This doctrine, a relic of 19th century anti-labor laws, gives
employers the unfettered right to fire workers at any time, for any
reason, whether grave or frivolous. Indeed, one can be fired for no
reason at all."


The fact is that the vast majority of the states in the US are 'at will' states. Tennessee is one of them btw.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Also,

Why are some of you confused as to the obligations of any employer to it's employees. An employer has every right to hire and fire it's employees for whatever reasons it wants. You can't dictate whom they hire or whom they fire.

Imagine how idiotic it would be for a player not drafted into the NFL to take them to court. Even Clarett's case was won by the NFL and that wasn't wheter he was drafted or not, that was just whether he should be ALLOWED to be drafted.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Whats all the fuss about? The NFL needs to get tougher on its players. And they have every right too. At the end of the day, players are merely employees. They are held accountable at work just like the rest of us. You should be able to fire a worker if his actions warrant it.
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Old 03-25-2007, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Whats all the fuss about? The NFL needs to get tougher on its players. And they have every right too. At the end of the day, players are merely employees. They are held accountable at work just like the rest of us. You should be able to fire a worker if his actions warrant it.
I think people are complaining of 2 things, 1. he hasn't been convicted and 2. why pac man and not the many other players that have done something.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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Also,

Why are some of you confused as to the obligations of any employer to it's employees. An employer has every right to hire and fire it's employees for whatever reasons it wants. You can't dictate whom they hire or whom they fire.

Imagine how idiotic it would be for a player not drafted into the NFL to take them to court. Even Clarett's case was won by the NFL and that wasn't wheter he was drafted or not, that was just whether he should be ALLOWED to be drafted.
Im talking about the Titans firing him. The Titans obviously have every right to fire or cut him, which is what firing him would be. Im talking about the NFL issuing a suspension for mis conduct without carrying out a proper investigation and finding him guilty of something. I dont believe the NFL is techinically his employer, that is the Titans.

As far as laws overall for employees-employers im not pretending to be an expert here....I know it depends a lot on different companies and states so there is no one way it is done...I know there are some companies that have a period at the begginning of employment of someone where they can do that at-will firing deal. For instance, I had a job where they had a 3 month period when I first got hired and at the end of or any point during the 3 months they could decide to fire me without giving me any reason or anything, but after that firing me would get a lot more complicated....I eventually quit the job when I moved so it never came to that.

And who are all these people pretending to know for a fact what happenned at the club that night? Its ridiculous that so many of you are claiming it as fact that Pac-Man ordered the shooting. Stop pretending like you actually know exactly what went down there.
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:48 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, and how many crimes has he been convicted of?

I HATE Pacman Jones, I am just saying, you take football away from him for a year, what does he do?

Hang out with his friends that are bad already, the dude needs football, tell him he has one more chance, and if he messes up again hes out of the league FOR GOOD.
Football is not always going to be around for Pacman. He is going to have to learn to live without it. The guy is in his mid 20's. Most people at that age have something to do and live responsible lives. No exceptions or excuses for Pacman.

Time for him to grow up.
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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If Pacman was the 50th guy on a roster, he would have been cut, perhaps blacklisted (except from Cincy) and nobody would care. He was, however, a top ten pick, a star in the NFL, and has a high salary. He violated NFL rules by not mentioning to the NFL that he was arrested two times previous. The NFL has every right to suspend him. The Players association will "appeal" but its not worth crying over spilt milk.

They're trying to make an example of him like baseball and Barry Bonds. The thing that keeps the NFL so successful is its image and if Pacman is threatening that then he his potentially costing the league tens of millions
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Old 03-26-2007, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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If Pacman was the 50th guy on a roster, he would have been cut, perhaps blacklisted (except from Cincy) and nobody would care. He was, however, a top ten pick, a star in the NFL, and has a high salary. He violated NFL rules by not mentioning to the NFL that he was arrested two times previous. The NFL has every right to suspend him. The Players association will "appeal" but its not worth crying over spilt milk.

They're trying to make an example of him like baseball and Barry Bonds. The thing that keeps the NFL so successful is its image and if Pacman is threatening that then he his potentially costing the league tens of millions
yeah when you work in the mail room for some company, they're gonna fire you at the first hint of trouble. Youre a mail room worker, youre not skilled, they have no reason to put up with any problems. If youre one of the top brokers for that same company, you think they'll just fire you easily? No, youre valuable too them. This is the way of the world. Of course an NFL team will put up with more stuff from Pac-Man Jones than they will Travis Laboy
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