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Old 03-25-2007, 12:26 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Ive stated before that he's the perfect Tampa 2 ILB, theres no question about that.

My problem is when people compare him to other greats in the history of the game. They gas him up way too much. For him to be in that discussion, he needs to be a better run stopper. At the end of the day, a MIKE's job is to stop the run, and Urlacher isn't that great at it. He's upper tier, but I can probably name you 5 MIKEs in the NFL currently that are better than him at that. And like you said, the MIKEs in the NFL are rather weak nowadays.

Is he the best MIKE in the NFL? Honestly, I rather have Zach Thomas, but he's at the very least the 2nd best, right now. I won't debate that.

But remember this, Urlacher will fall off harder at the end of his career than Lewis did. He continuously takes bad angles, and isn't the smartest ILB either. When he loses his athleticism, he will become a below average MIKE, because he doesn't have the intangibles to fall back on.

I think he's overrated not compared to other NFL players, but overrated in the context of history. He's too high on most people's best MIKEs list for the most part.
I wouldn't say that Lewis' raw ability to stop the run was any better than Urlacher's at any point in their respective careers. Keep in mind that in his prime, Lewis had two man-beasts in front of him, whose sole purpose was to keep blockers off of him, whereas Urlacher's defensive scheme has his tackles blowing through a gap and getting upfield.

Keep in mind, too, that Lewis was pretty average against the run when the Ravens switched to a 3-4. To compensate, Baltimore used Edgerton Hartwell as their plugger, and used Lewis in more of a freelancing/coverage type of role. It should also be dually noted that Ray played a lot worse in that 3-4 defense once Hartwell departed to Atlanta.

I'd say the one thing that separates the two of them, like you said, is instincts. In terms of run stopping or pass coverage ability, I don't think either one holds an advantage over the other.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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TONY G is uncer rated if anything. THE MOST COMPELTE TE in the game. He will finally have a receiving threat drafted which will allow him to actually b more productive this year.

Ty Law is the second best CB of the last 10 years. And a top 10 CB all time.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/3820

What do you expect from a guy thats in his 13th season, 19 ints?

He is good for about 4-8 ints, maybe a better number 2 CB now.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say that Lewis' raw ability to stop the run was any better than Urlacher's at any point in their respective careers. Keep in mind that in his prime, Lewis had two man-beasts in front of him, whose sole purpose was to keep blockers off of him, whereas Urlacher's defensive scheme has his tackles blowing through a gap and getting upfield.

Keep in mind, too, that Lewis was pretty average against the run when the Ravens switched to a 3-4. To compensate, Baltimore used Edgerton Hartwell as their plugger, and used Lewis in more of a freelancing/coverage type of role. It should also be dually noted that Ray played a lot worse in that 3-4 defense once Hartwell departed to Atlanta.

I'd say the one thing that separates the two of them, like you said, is instincts. In terms of run stopping or pass coverage ability, I don't think either one holds an advantage over the other.
Both struggled against offensive linemen, but I think Urlacher struggles a bit more than Lewis did. Not by alot, but Lewis was slightly better at taking on linemen.

But Lewis was better at wrapping up against bigger RBs. Urlacher shies away from contact with big burly RBs, or gets owned by em, I saw Lewis take em on head on a decent number of times. Thats where the main difference between them lies in run stuffing. Lewis I feel was a good amount better at bringing down power runners. He would son Eddie George in their infamous duels in the playoffs.

I don't think Urlacher would be able to handle Eddie George in his prime the way Lewis did.

I don't want to sound like Im saying that Urlacher stinks, because thats not what Im saying. But he is somewhat overrated in the grand scheme of things.

And for the record, I don't deem Ray Lewis as a top 3 MIKE in NFL history either.

I have Butkus, Lambert, Singletary ahead of him. You can make an argument for other names like Nietzske (however you spell it), and Nobis.

Lewis was also more durable in his prime. Remember, before the Cover 2 was implimented, Urlacher also had 2 big burly DTs in front of him. But the role he was asked to be involved in (closer to the LOS, more physical run stuffing presence) led to injuries. He wasn't durable enough to handle that type of role.

The Tampa 2 is a blessing for him, because he plays further off and it keeps him away from alot of action and nitty gritty trench work. It keeps him healthy, and it allows him to be the pass coverage specialist that he's built for.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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I have never seen Urlacher shy away from anyone in my life. Name me some specific games. I think you're getting a lot of this from the one game where Jerome Bettis ran over him in the snow. Jerome Bettis ran over a lot of people.

And as I recall, Eddie George usually got the better of Ray Lewis.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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i think that shawn merriman is overrated. he is a cheater and a liar. he does have nice stats but i think that his impact is not waht it is made out to be. he will never be lawrence taylor. people are over hyping him to make him out to be LT but he will not be. people look for someone to be as good as the best of all time far too much
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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I have never seen Urlacher shy away from anyone in my life. Name me some specific games. I think you're getting a lot of this from the one game where Jerome Bettis ran over him in the snow. Jerome Bettis ran over a lot of people.

And as I recall, Eddie George usually got the better of Ray Lewis.
Ok, I can specifically point out the few times Jacobs got the ball against you guys this past year. If you look back at it, he went untouched several times. In fact, he said he would run right at Urlacher during the week, and he kept his promise. He did run right at him, and Urlacher didn't even challenge him. He just let him go right up the gut. K know, I know, we lost. Got our butts kicked in the 2nd half. Why on earth did Jacobs get so few touches that game, only Tom Coughlin knows.

Ive also seen Duckett get the best of him.

From what I recall, Lewis would usually win the war against George. Maybe Im basing my opinions too heavily on their playoff games, but from what I saw, Ray held it down.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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You lost your credibility as soon as you post something as childish as "Tony RoHOMO"

what else is interesting is that there are 2 Cowboy players and no Eagles players. Not biased at all are we?
Also, a Redskin and a Giant.
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Old 03-25-2007, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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Oh and Urlacher cost me 500 cheeseburgers in the SB dammit. Thanks alot Urlacher. Way to hit that A gap. I was looking so good after Hester scored. Then Urlacher had to get owned by Jeff Saturday. And screw you too Rivera. Its freaking raining like hell, the deepball wasn't there. Why play so passive? Blitz em, force him to make the throws in the rain off his back foot. The Bears wouldve won the game if it wasn't for Rivera and Urlacher.

end rant.
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Ok, I can specifically point out the few times Jacobs got the ball against you guys this past year. If you look back at it, he went untouched several times. In fact, he said he would run right at Urlacher during the week, and he kept his promise. He did run right at him, and Urlacher didn't even challenge him. He just let him go right up the gut.
Really? A couple of times eh? You sure about that?

Cause as I recall, the immortal rushing machine known as Brandon Jacobs ran for a whopping NINE YARDS that game. Nine yards. He went "untouched several times" yet he only ran the ball twice, for nine yards.


Back to the drawing board....
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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lol ray lewis overrated
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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Really? A couple of times eh? You sure about that?

Cause as I recall, the immortal rushing machine known as Brandon Jacobs ran for a whopping NINE YARDS that game. Nine yards. He went "untouched several times" yet he only ran the ball twice, for nine yards.


Back to the drawing board....
2 rushes for 9 yards.

Both TDs.

Both times, untouched, right up the gut.

Tiki had 19 touches for 141 yards. Mostly cutbacks up the gut...

Ok, so maybe in my mind I exaggerrated how many times he touched it, but I do remember him going untouched in that game. Urlacher had a clear shot at him and backed down. In the redzone of all places.
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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Oh ok. So clearly he's overrated and shys away from bigger runners because he missed a tackle one time on Brandon Jacobs.

By the way, one reason why teams run up the gut against is because they can't run outside. Wonder why that is...
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Oh ok. So clearly he's overrated and shys away from bigger runners because he missed a tackle one time on Brandon Jacobs.

By the way, one reason why teams run up the gut against is because they can't run outside. Wonder why that is...
And cost me 500 cheeseburgers, yes. I could be eating one right now if it wasn't for Urlacher.
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Old 03-25-2007, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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lol ray lewis overrated

I guess it really depends on were people rank Ray. I consider him a top 5 MLB. His leadership is amazing. It shows how much he means to our defense when Ray was out and Travis Henry ran all over us and when Ray was in we had a top D in the NFL.
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Old 03-25-2007, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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who do you guys think is the most overated at each position?

QB- Tony RoHOMO
RB- Shaun Alexander
FB- Mike Alstott

WR- Santana Moss
WR- Randy Moss

TE- Tony Gonzalez
no offensive lineman are overated imo

DE- Dwight Freeney
DT- Anthony McFarland
DT- Warren Sapp
DE- Osi

LOLB-Shawn Merriman
MLB- Ray Lewis
ROLB- Cato June

CB- Ty Law
SS- Roy Williams
FS- ?????
CB- Charles Woodson

who would you guys put?
Warren Sapp? He is considered by most to be over the hill, yet somewhow he lead all DT in sacks this past season with 10, so if anything he was underrated this past year. If you said he was overrated the 3 years before then I would have agreed with you, but this year he stepped up his game.

Also, putting Gonzo and Lewis on there is just ridiculous, despite getting older they are some of the top players in the game at their positions.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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As much as i hate Shaun Alexander he is hardly overrated. An MVP cant be overrated regardless.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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who do you guys think is the most overated at each position?

QB- Tony RoHOMO
RB- Shaun Alexander
FB- Mike Alstott

WR- Santana Moss
WR- Randy Moss

TE- Tony Gonzalez
no offensive lineman are overated imo

DE- Dwight Freeney
DT- Anthony McFarland
DT- Warren Sapp
DE- Osi

LOLB-Shawn Merriman
MLB- Ray Lewis
ROLB- Cato June

CB- Ty Law
SS- Roy Williams
FS- ?????
CB- Charles Woodson

who would you guys put?
So basically you are saying that every player that used to be a star and has declined is overrated? Do you ignore past achievements? Most of that list is filled with guys who are over 30 and still start but have declined a bit, and I think that is an unfair way to rate someone. The rest of the list is guys who are far from overrated, except for maybe Romo & June.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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who do you guys think is the most overated at each position?

QB- Tony RoHOMO
RB- Shaun Alexander - BAD
FB- Mike Alstott - BAD

WR- Santana Moss - BAD
WR- Randy Moss

TE- Tony Gonzalez - BAD
no offensive lineman are overated imo

DE- Dwight Freeney - BAD
DT- Anthony McFarland
DT- Warren Sapp - BAD
DE- Osi

LOLB-Shawn Merriman - BAD
MLB- Ray Lewis - BAD
ROLB- Cato June

CB- Ty Law - BAD
SS- Roy Williams - BAD
FS- ?????
CB- Charles Woodson - BAD

who would you guys put?
well i dont like half your list
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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bears fan why you have to make him a dawkins sig :(
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Couldn't think of a whole team so i thought of people that havn't been mentioned that imo are overrated
RB - M Turner
Wr - Randle El
TE - V Davis
OLB - J Porter
MLB - T brushci

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Old 03-25-2007, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Michael Vick. He sucks, but yeat he makes the Pro Bowl every year.
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Old 03-25-2007, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Ok, I can specifically point out the few times Jacobs got the ball against you guys this past year. If you look back at it, he went untouched several times. In fact, he said he would run right at Urlacher during the week, and he kept his promise. He did run right at him, and Urlacher didn't even challenge him. He just let him go right up the gut. K know, I know, we lost. Got our butts kicked in the 2nd half. Why on earth did Jacobs get so few touches that game, only Tom Coughlin knows.

Ive also seen Duckett get the best of him.

From what I recall, Lewis would usually win the war against George. Maybe Im basing my opinions too heavily on their playoff games, but from what I saw, Ray held it down.

When did that happen? I don't remember it.
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:05 PM    (permalink
neko4
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Originally Posted by Eagles own the NFC East View Post
who do you guys think is the most overated at each position?

QB- Tony RoHOMO
RB- Shaun Alexander
FB- Mike Alstott

WR- Santana Moss
WR- Randy Moss

TE- Tony Gonzalez
no offensive lineman are overated imo

DE- Dwight Freeney
DT- Anthony McFarland
DT- Warren Sapp
DE- Osi

LOLB-Shawn Merriman
MLB- Ray Lewis
ROLB- Cato June

CB- Ty Law
SS- Roy Williams
FS- ?????
CB- Charles Woodson

who would you guys put?
Romo...oh yeah he only led a team back on the brink of extinction basically. I can agree w/ Alexander. Alstott is considered as great as he was so hes not exactly overated. Santana Moss? he makes Brunell look good and jumps over people 2to3 inches taller than him. Randy Moss is older and is no longer considerd great like Alstott, maybe TO. Gonzalez? Seriously, the best TE since Winslow I. I can see Freeny and June, but they did win the super bowl. Ray Lewis? Where did you come up w/ that idea? I can see Williams, but not Woodson, the guys been hurt and the Packers D was better partly because of him.
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:06 PM    (permalink
JoeMontainya
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JoeMontainya needs more cowbell.
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QB - Roethlesburger (exsposed after all the true leaders start to leave a great team)
RB - Willis McGahee (cant block, run inbetween the tackles, horrible YPC)
WR - Chris Chambers (drops his own first born child because of butter fingers)
WR - Braylon Edwards (dude is an athlete, but not a great WR, cant catch in any important situation)
TE - Vernon Davis (nonody has got a true feel for him yet, but hes better without pads and worse with them on (meaning actual games))
DE - Freeney (can only pass rush, usually runs himself out of 90% of all plays)
CB - Deangelo Hall (for how fast he is, he talks to much and I allways catch him getting beat)
S - Roy Williams (cant cover a boat with a tarp)
S - Sean Taylor (gave up 2nd most TD's out of all the NFL DB's, should be a LB)


Dont get me wrong, if all these players were on the same team it would be scary, but they get more credit than they deserve and there weaknesses usually hurt there teams as much as there strengths help.
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Old 03-25-2007, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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i love the philly bias. i mean alot are questionable but Osi? $20 says he cant spell his last name without looking it up lol(trust me i can). i mean the guy played 1 full year, and what? led the NFC in sacks? he got hurt this year, but still played well when healthy despite constant double teams.
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