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Old 05-01-2011, 11:24 PM    (permalink
bigbuc
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Default The ATL Trade?

Do you think that if the ALT called AZ and offered two 1st rounders a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder for Fitz they would have taken it?
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Can't trade players so we'll never know.
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:49 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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There's not a wide receiver in the league I'd trade two #1s for (let alone two #1s and change), so if I'm Arizona and I'm able to trade Fitzgerald and am offered that deal, I jump at it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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I just ask cause wouldn't you want Fitz over a unproven Jones.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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yes, Fitz is significantly better than Julio will ever be
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
There's not a wide receiver in the league I'd trade two #1s for (let alone two #1s and change), so if I'm Arizona and I'm able to trade Fitzgerald and am offered that deal, I jump at it.
I would laugh Atlanta out of the building if they offered only two firsts for Fitz. Heck, I wouldn't even except the deal they offered Cleveland. Without Fitz, the Cards go way, WAY down.

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I just ask cause wouldn't you want Fitz over a unproven Jones.
At this point, It is close. Yes, Fitz is proven, but Julio is about as safe a prospect as there can be IMHO. Also, Julio is seven years younger so I can't say with certainty who I'd rather have.
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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I would laugh Atlanta out of the building if they offered only two firsts for Fitz. Heck, I wouldn't even except the deal they offered Cleveland. Without Fitz, the Cards go way, WAY down.
As though Arizona is following a positive trajectory with Fitzgerald? Considering that Fitzgerald's contract expires after the 2011 season and is probably not going to want to return if the Cardinals are still a disaster, if I could get a pair of firsts for him now I'd jump at it.

But like I said, if I'm the GM of any team in the league, for any wide receiver on my roster, you offer me two firsts and you can have him. Wide receivers simply aren't that irreplaceable. That Green Bay WR corps last year that all the TV announcers say was "the best in the league" was made up of two second round picks, a third round pick, and two seventh round picks. If you like you can throw in the TEs who were a third round pick, two fifth round picks, and an undrafted guy.

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Old 05-02-2011, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbuc View Post
Do you think that if the ALT called AZ and offered two 1st rounders a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder for Fitz they would have taken it?
For those picks, they could have gotten any receiver in the league. Or they could have gotten Anquan Boldin twice PLUS Brandon Marshall twice.

Yes, Julio Jones cost twice as much as Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall together. Atlanta was on crack for that trade. It was a ******** Herschel Walker type of trade.

Oh, and you forgot a pick. There was another fourth rounder included.

Julio Jones cost more than a pro bowl franchise QB with a cheap contract coming off a 4500 yard season at age 25.

Incidentally, Mike Brown is really dumb for not taking the trade when he was offered it. But we've come to expect such things from him...

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Can't trade players so we'll never know.

*ring ring*
Cardinals: Whassup?
Falcons: Give me a list of who you want me to draft with these picks. When the lockout is lifted, I'll trade the rights to the players to you for Fitz.
Cardinals: Good idea. Go get a pen.

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Old 05-02-2011, 04:03 AM    (permalink
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Unlike most picks, next year will be very telling if this was a good idea.

If Atlanta gets to the Superbowl, trading up for the last piece to a contender seems like a great idea. If they get bounced early, trading away a ton of picks is stupid if favor of filling other holes.
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:39 AM    (permalink
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Trading two firsts for Keyshawn didn't stop the Bucs from winning a Super Bowl.

I think it's funny that people think the Julio trade was all about winning the Super Bowl next season. The guy just turned 22. He could potentially be an elite WR for a decade. It's not all about 2011.
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:18 AM    (permalink
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Atl only gave up 1 first round draft pick in the trade not two why is this so hard for people to understand? Yeah they officially traded two, but we got one back in the trade.
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Old 05-02-2011, 07:32 AM    (permalink
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Atl only gave up 1 first round draft pick in the trade not two why is this so hard for people to understand? Yeah they officially traded two, but we got one back in the trade.
Would be the same as trading 2 for Fitzgerald. Yes, you kept one, but took a WR with it.
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Old 05-02-2011, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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Falcons wasnt gonna trade for a vet WR like Fitz who like Roddy White is around 30 years old. They said this a move for the future as well as the short term. Roddy White is 30 years old and while one of the best WR's in the league could only have 3 peak years left. Tony G could retire at any time and we all know about how long HB's left.

Falcons only gave up 4 players in this draft and two of them was 4th rounders. Here is a recent look at 4th round players drafted by the falcons since 2000. None of the guys they have drafted in the 4th round has went on to be anything to worry about losing.

C - Joe Hawley - Has yet to see the field
DE Lawrence Siburry - Can't get on the field with a weak DE unit
TE Martrez Milner - Never did anything
LB Stephen Nichols - average starter for a few years could sign with another team
DE Chuancy Davis - Still on the team avg at best rotaional guy
LB Demorro Williams - Had one solid year starter before leaving as a FA not sure if he is in the league anymore
FB Justin Griffith - nothing special and was drafted early for a FB
OG Martin Bibla - Did nothing
LB Matt Stewart - Did nothing
OG Michael Thompson - Dont't remember him
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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i have no idea why anyone ever makes a deal like this for a wide receiver. since 2000, only TWO top ten draft picks at the position have won a super bowl. and one is the immortal travis taylor, who lucked his way onto the ravens. wide receivers are *never* worth a top ten draft pick, and they're certainly not worth what atlanta gave up for one.
Almost not even worth responding to as I'm sure you'll run and hide behind your head moderator tag, but alas, I will try to explain.

Atlanta doesn't have roster room for that many players, period. So giving up 4 draft picks, and swapping 1, doesn't really hurt us, especially when 2 of those players were likely to not amount to much/if anything. Atlanta has been in this position before, when we could have moved to get Calvin Johnson and didn't, we stood pat with our 3 draft picks that year and drafted Jamaal Anderson, Chris Houston, and Laurent Robinson. 2/3 aren't on our roster, and 1 is just around cause he was the #8 overall selection.

The Falcons also don't want to go spend crazy money on someone like Fitzgerald, his contract is going to be insane next year to lock him down for the back end of his career. So the Falcons instead of just trying to win right now, which is what Fitz would have been, gave themselves the best opportunity to win now, and in the future. One thing I think people forget is Atlanta isn't going to be in a position to draft a WR like that for quite some time, and it's not a small step to go from good to elite either. So the Falcons are doing what they can to take that step.

The Falcons offense just went from one where any team in the league could drop the SS in the box to stop the run + add coverage on Tony, then Roll the Free Safety over the top to help on coverage with Roddy, and leave Michael Jenkins alone in 1 on 1 coverage and have no fear of an explosive play, except for an exceptional play by one of these players. The issue is, the guy who should have been raking in catches and yardage in 1 on 1 coverage plays super soft, and now after being a vet in the league for 6 seasons, he still has yet to record a 100 yard receiving game. Despite being 6'5 220+ he's one of the softest WRs in the league and refuses to use his frame, or come back to a ball for anything. Now the Falcons have a WR who will instill fear into opposing team's defenses to the point where you can't leave him 1 on 1 or he will house you on the regular.

Jones doesn't just transform an offense, he transforms a team. When your defense doesn't have to play from behind, or in close situations a lot, when your defense can take chances and have no qualms about your offense being able to catch you back up in 1 quick strike, it opens up not only offensive, but defensive playbooks as well. It also tells the players on the team, we are serious about winning now, and in the future. Jones is the picture perfect WR for the Atlanta Falcons, his workman attitude will fit in great, his blocking allows Atlanta to continue to pound the run which they will not stop doing, his athleticism allows Matt Ryan to not have to be perfect on every throw. His H/W/S causes mismatches everywhere on the field, and the dude isn't afraid to take a hit, and is tough as nails, plays through anything.

It also now allows the Falcons to run a set of Jones, Jenkins, White, Gonzo, Turner/Quizz. Giving the Falcons a 3 wide set with 5 tremendous pass catchers, and 3 playmakers. I understand you guys are all jealous that your Front Office doesn't go out and get your team a serious game changer, so I'll let you continue to gripe on, but how often can a 13-3 team dramatically improve themselves for what will likely be a #25+ draft pick next year, and a high 50s selection this year? The Answer, not often.

The Saints went out and traded a 2nd rounder this year, higher than the Falcons, and a 1st rounder next year, again likely a 25ish pick, for a Runningback who wasn't even the best running back on his own college team. Yet everyone is talking about the 2 -4th rounders we gave up, as if we really had room on the roster for them anyway. Wonder how many teams out there would have given up a top flight starting running back for a 1st and 2nd round pick, I'd be willing to bet Carolina, and a few others would have gladly moved Stewart or Williams for that price, and with the impending free agency of Ronnie Brown, could have been had for no draft picks.

So, you guys hate on all you want, just know it's your jealousy that's showing. When the #5 scoring offense in the NFL is able to dramatically improve itself, and give one of the brightest young QBs in the NFL a significantly better weapon, I'm happy to take it, and thankfully so were the Browns, and the Falcons front office.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Do you think that if the ALT called AZ and offered two 1st rounders a 2nd rounder and a 4th rounder for Fitz they would have taken it?
The only position where you do a trade like that is quarterback. NO EXCEPTIONS! Quarterback is the only position that makes that much of an impact.
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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I dont mind good teams giving up draft picks to get a potentially elite player they would have no other chance at getting but the two things that bother me about this trade are;

1. They gave up a ******* boatload for him. Teams who give up multiple picks in future drafts often end up with a lack of both talent and depth in a few years. Forget what impact starters you get in the fourth round, but those unheard of interior linemen, or your backup RB, or your run stuffing DT, or your second TE, or your special teams aces...yip those are the guys you draft in the middle rounds and they make a huge impact on your team.

2. It's not like the Falcons didn't have any other needs. They still need another DE, is Peria Jerry going to have any sort of impact, they could use upgrades along the offensive line, a future TE, a future starting RB, secondary help.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Falcons want to upgrade their defense immediately. They did not want to draft a DE, wait for his time, and hope he pans out. TD said he will push hard in FA to get a proven DE.

As far as the Julio Jones trade, it isn't just getting a WR. It's changing the face of the offense. If anyone seen Falcons play a number of games in the last 3 years will know how Vanilla their offense actually is. Pretty much every play is predictable, with the motive to just move the chains.

With prime players like Tony G, Turner, Roddy getting up there in age, they are desperate to bring in a young explosive player. They did give up a whole lot, but Falcons already have pieces in place, and those extra picks aren't that important to them. Can't say how good the trade was yet. Only the success of Julio Jones can judge this deal, doesn't matter who the Browns select with those 5 picks.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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I'm not 100% sold on the trade and I think falcons gave up a little to much in trade. Alot of rumors have falcons going after a DE in FA like Charles Johnson or Ray Edwards. Charles Johnson is from GA and played his college ball at UGA. So you would have to think he would jump on the chance to come home and play for a winning team. If they sign one of those then that takes care of the other biggest need.

Also the falcons still had 9 picks going into this draft and they wasn't room for 9 players on this team. Still 6 other players was drafted that all fill a need for the team.

LB Akeem Dent - Can play both OLB and ILB and is a 5th year senior that can help right away. Nichols IS a FA and Peterson getting older.

HB Jacuizz Rodgers - Falcons needed a change of pace 3rd down pack as Norwood is no longer in the teams play. This was a major pick and he will help out right away and fits the term "explosive player" we was looking for.

K/P - Whatever the guys name is should start right away at either spot depending on which one is let go

DE Cliff Matthews - Hard working rotational DE that has a non stop motor. He will prob battle with Siburry or JA98 for a roster spot.

OL Andrew Jackson - Everyone says he is falcons type player and potential starter. He gives them insurance if the OG are not resigned or if the 3 OL from the past few years don't pan out
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Can't say anyone didn't address their needs. The off-season just started.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:21 AM    (permalink
the_dark_knight
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that's cute. 'i'm so oppressed because like, you're a mod, so let me start off with a bizarre, inane comment that has no relevance whatsoever to the conversation, so that when you DO reply, i can further compalin about how mean you are because you're a mod and like, your name is a different color than mine. boo fricking hoo.'

grow up.



so, you should always package your draft picks so that you don't have to cut players (which you'll do anyways) and so that a bad scouting department isn't exposed? that seems... logical, or something.



so, instead of spending crazy money on a WR who's actually proven that he can play in the nfl, you're going to spend crazy money on a WR who's proven nothing. brilliant. but hey, look at all of those stud wrs who've won the super bowl. oh... right.



why would i fear a rookie who's proven nothing in the nfl? i do appreciate the assumption that he's already a top tier nfl wideout, it's cute, but until he actually shows that he can beat an nfl cb, or run an nfl route, no one cares.



ah, more "he's already a top tier nfl receiver, and he's so good that he's actually made the defense better". is that why the lions won so many more games the year after they drafted calvin johnson? is that why the texans have gone to the playoffs so many times with andre johnson? is that why the cardinals won so many super bowls with fitz AND boldin? let me know when you catch onto the theme.



yes, i'm *jealous* that the broncos didn't trade their next 53 first round picks to take a wide receiver in the top ten. how'd you know? every single time i think something is stupid, it's clearly just jealousy.



i.e. - waaaaaaah, someone else did it to! why are you picking on us! other teams make dumb trades!



yup, not only am i 'jealous' i'm also 'hating'. i mean, you were clearly a julio jones away from winning the super bowl for the next decade straight.
LMAO @ you. Your Man Thong must be riding up.
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:22 AM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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The window of opportunity becomes significantly greater with Jones than Fitzgerald. Although, their odds in the short run would have dramatically increased with Fitzgerald, this is a business move. The Falcons are already a contender, they don't need to take on Fitzgerald and his contract. Granted, both moves would have been a luxury; Jones made more sense even though it made none.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:06 AM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Atlanta doesn't have roster room for that many players, period. So giving up 4 draft picks, and swapping 1, doesn't really hurt us, especially when 2 of those players were likely to not amount to much/if anything.
This argument always baffles me. If Atlanta's roster is so packed with talent, top to bottom that they don't actually have to make draft picks and they're basically obligated to trade away picks... explain to me why teams with better rosters, like New England and Green Bay made 9 and 10 draft picks respectively.

The argument doesn't make sense anyway. How is a team in any way lessened by bringing in guys to compete for the roles of the middle of the roster guys. It's not like Atlanta was incapable of improving at any position other than wide receiver (you have to admit they could use help on defense, too.) Training camp competition makes your team better. You start training camp with 80 guys, no matter how many guys you drafted, and you end up cutting at least 27 of those guys. Personally, I would prefer to end up cutting 27 good players because the rest of my players are even better.

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Old 05-02-2011, 11:31 AM    (permalink
georgiafan
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Julio made the best sense for the team both short and long term. The biggest gripe is the falcons could have used the 1st round pick on a DE. Look at the DE's that was off the board by pick #27 Miller, Watt, Claborn, Jordan, Quinn, Kerrigan. They would have been left picking the 7th ranked DE from the likes of Haywood, Brooks Reed, Sheard. The falcons have lots of bodies at DE just most of them are rotaional guys. A rookie DE would have just been another rotaion guy. If falcons are able to sign a good FA DE the trade makes more sense.

The other positon you potential could have used was CB, but the top 2 was off the board. Jimmy Smith was never gonna be a falcon with his off the field stuff. They also wasn't gonna draft a DT or S in the first round. They wasn't a OLB worth the pick either really.

Most of the core at every positon is set and they figured it was worth giving up 2 players in this years draft to take a WR. We still filled needs with the other 6 picks.


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Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage View Post
This argument always baffles me. If Atlanta's roster is so packed with talent, top to bottom that they don't actually have to make draft picks and they're basically obligated to trade away picks... explain to me why teams with better rosters, like New England and Green Bay made 9 and 10 draft picks respectively.

The argument doesn't make sense anyway. How is a team in any way lessened by bringing in guys to compete for the roles of the middle of the roster guys. It's not like Atlanta was incapable of improving at any position other than wide receiver (you have to admit they could use help on defense, too.) Training camp competition makes your team better. You start training camp with 80 guys, no matter how many guys you drafted, and you end up cutting at least 27 of those guys. Personally, I would prefer to end up cutting 27 good players because the rest of my players are even better.
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Old 05-02-2011, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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i remember not too long ago the Browns traded down in the Mark Sanchez situation and got a good not great player in Alex Mack. They may have done the same thing here. Like they couldn't use Julio Jones?

as a general note Julio was way underrated, all draft season. He ran a 4.3 on a broken foot. He made a ton of huge plays at Bama and he run blocks like a beast. For a playoff team like the falcons, extra draft picks aren't gonna make the roster, better off getting a real blue chipper.
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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People can come up with this reason and that reason why the Falcons made a bad trade, but I doubt even the harshest critic of the team will have a problem with it if Jones plays up to his potential for a long time. He just turned 22 and could be helping Matt Ryan for the next decade. When Roddy White starts slowing down, the Falcons won't need to worry about finding a new go-to WR. Obviously, the Falcons would be in big trouble if Jones struggles with durability or just busts.
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