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Old 07-26-2011, 07:01 PM    (permalink
YAYareaRB
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Originally Posted by mellojello View Post
I've wondered, why now?
im thinking the NCAA is tired of getting the covers pulled over their eyes and now come down on anyone that has violations.

and thanks for the write up elaboration. USC was getting strawman'd up the wazzoo.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather not since it doesn't change anything, but since you asked Yay...

“USC didn’t self-report a thing, it was all uncovered by external investigaion” – 100% False

“USC got Lack of Institutional Control because the entire athletic department was corrupt.” - Ummm, I didn’t read that in the NCAA report, nothing in the report even suggested any sort of culture of corruption. Instead, one of the main premises of the NCAA report was that SC, with great power, had a “greater responsibility” than they demonstrated. This theme was repeated over and over in the report and effectively, this was the standard set in the report.

“As far as one player... the NCAA imposed sanctions against USC because of violations involving MULTIPLE players in MULTIPLE sports.” - The basketball violation was self-reported. If you want to include a female swimmer using the telephone to call her parents in Europe, then yes, it was multiple sports/violations. This was also self-reported, fyi.

“The NCAA was able to demonstrate that the AD knew about the issues at USC and did nothing to stop them and they let the environment that spawned them exist.” – Completely false. I didn’t read this in the NCAA report either, but please cite where you are getting this from. What did Mike Garrett or the president know about and not stop?

“That's why Pete Carroll took off in the middle of the night.” Wtf??? USC was under investigation for FOUR years and Pete Carroll was there the entire time!
“There were systemic problems that the AD did nothing to rectify and even worse off, tried to bury evidence of.” – Please cite where the NCAA accuses USC of burying evidence?

For those who have read the NCAA report, the only direct evidence that links the USC coaches/administration to the Bush scandal is a two minute cell phone bill by one of Bush’s supposed wannabe agents and the running back coach, Todd McNair. That is not overwhelming evidence in my mind.

Anyone who has ever spoken to a NCAA football player knows that at any given time, athletes are in violation of some rule. If a football players sells their textbooks at the end of the year, that's a violation, but everyone does it. Thinking that SC is the evil empire and your school has a halo over its head is just ignorant.
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=4816942

At no point did USC self report anything. They DID self impose sanctions but did not self report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=5234097

Here it states USC's position that no major violation occurred involving Reggie Bush and that their ultimate goal was to not be found having lack of institutional control due to major violations occurring within five years of each other and the current investigation into O.J. Mayo receiving improper benefits. Doesn't exactly sound like self-reporting to me

http://www.nwcn.com/sports/NCAA-Find...-96096329.html

Here is a list of the MULTIPLE violations involving MULTIPLE USC athletes, and the phone call you mentioned earlier from and athlete to parents must have been a long one as it totaled nearly $7,000

This is what we call citing sources and information to back up our argument
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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ohio state would've gotten away with it all if it hadn't been for the FBI raiding the tattoo owner's house and finding all that sold memorabilia. Tressel would still be here, Pryor would stilll be here, no suspensions, OSU would be preseason top 2. darn pesky FBI. Imagine how much stuff like that other programs get away with.
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Old 07-26-2011, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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ohio state would've gotten away with it all if it hadn't been for the FBI raiding the tattoo owner's house and finding all that sold memorabilia. Tressel would still be here, Pryor would stilll be here, no suspensions, OSU would be preseason top 2. darn pesky FBI. Imagine how much stuff like that other programs get away with.
Well, the FBI is involved in a major case surrounding the biggest Auburn booster out there. And the NCAA told Chizik that they weren't through investigating them.

But to your main point, yes, teams pretty much get away with cheating like crazy.

To mello, never at any point did I think OSU was angelic. They cheat. Like YAY says, Corrupt College Football Team Is Corrupt.

Sweatervest pretty much smacked down your lack of sources, so I'm not going to waste my time refuting until you cite yours. 31 majors across multiple sports over multiple years. Most of which the AD should have prevented or reacted to once made aware of. (AD: You mean Reggie Bush can't go work for a sports agency?) Their compliance department was woefully understaffed.

Other than the magnitude and spread of the problems, the major difference is how the departments reacted. You are in denial if you don't think that USC sat on info for years regarding infractions vs handing the info over to the NCAA.

OTOH, most of this stuff is asinine and stupid. WTF are these things violations? Cheating is all a matter of perspective. Have the ability to legally pay those kids and things will improve. It's an insane business where you have a billions of dollars industry where the star employees are paid a pittance, and that pittance is the exact same no matter how well you perform.

So no, I don't think USC is OMG evil. Nor is OSU. But there is a logical reason other than OMG THE NCAA HATEZ USC to treat the two differently.
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=4816942

At no point did USC self report anything. They DID self impose sanctions but did not self report.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angele...ory?id=5234097

Here it states USC's position that no major violation occurred involving Reggie Bush and that their ultimate goal was to not be found having lack of institutional control due to major violations occurring within five years of each other and the current investigation into O.J. Mayo receiving improper benefits. Doesn't exactly sound like self-reporting to me

http://www.nwcn.com/sports/NCAA-Find...-96096329.html

Here is a list of the MULTIPLE violations involving MULTIPLE USC athletes, and the phone call you mentioned earlier from and athlete to parents must have been a long one as it totaled nearly $7,000

This is what we call citing sources and information to back up our argument
HAHAHA, you're going to cite these articles as your "evidence?" Apparently, you haven't learned anything about the media through your own tattoo-gate.

Try reading the NCAA report:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/...8fd5a6e282e000

Or read USC's original response to the Notice of Allegations:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...onsetoNCAA.pdf

USC self-reported Allegations 4, 5, and 9. Look it up.

The phone calls were over the course of 2+ years and were from a Romanian tennis player making unauthorized calls to Europe. This was self-repored and just so you understand, this was the 3rd argument the NCAA used to hit SC with LOIC. USC considered this violation secondary, the NCAA clearly disagreed.

For the record, I don't like USC and now I feel dirty arguing on their behalf.
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by YAYareaRB View Post
im thinking the NCAA is tired of getting the covers pulled over their eyes and now come down on anyone that has violations.

and thanks for the write up elaboration. USC was getting strawman'd up the wazzoo.
I think times are just changing, especially with the media.

I honestly hate SC. I couldn't wait to sink my teeth into the NCAA report and get the dirt on how they really cheated all through the Carroll years. After reading it, I was not convinced though. SC took a legal/court approach to defending their case and exercised very poor diplomacy. Not to mention, Garrett is a prick.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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HAHAHA, you're going to cite these articles as your "evidence?" Apparently, you haven't learned anything about the media through your own tattoo-gate.

Try reading the NCAA report:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/...8fd5a6e282e000

Or read USC's original response to the Notice of Allegations:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...onsetoNCAA.pdf

USC self-reported Allegations 4, 5, and 9. Look it up.

The phone calls were over the course of 2+ years and were from a Romanian tennis player making unauthorized calls to Europe. This was self-repored and just so you understand, this was the 3rd argument the NCAA used to hit SC with LOIC. USC considered this violation secondary, the NCAA clearly disagreed.

For the record, I don't like USC and now I feel dirty arguing on their behalf.
Yes, read your own article...

under the section "other allegations" they admit to the supposed secondary allegations while continuing to DENY any of the MAJOR allegations regarding student athletes 1 and 2. In fact they try to smear the names of the reporting parties in an attempt to discredit them as unreliable sources.

Meanwhile in the article you posted from the NCAA themselves it verifies that my cited article didn't make anything up and therefore are credible.

Pages 4-36 outline MULTIPLE VIOLATIONS regarding "student-athlete 1" and his family including the acceptance of cash and gifts such as cars, housing, furniture, washers and dryers, hotel stays, airfare etc. USC DENIED such MAJOR allegations.

Pages 38-45 outline MULTIPLE VIOLATIONS regarding "student-athlete 2" and his family including the acceptance of cash and gifts such as Wireless phone services, airfare, hotel stays, a television etc. USC DENIED these MAJOR allegations.

And of course the NCAA found the telephone calls by the tennis player to be a major violation, there were 123 long distance calls made that totaled $7,535. A bill which was fronted by the school.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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I'd rather not since it doesn't change anything, but since you asked Yay...

“USC didn’t self-report a thing, it was all uncovered by external investigaion” – 100% False

“USC got Lack of Institutional Control because the entire athletic department was corrupt.” - Ummm, I didn’t read that in the NCAA report, nothing in the report even suggested any sort of culture of corruption. Instead, one of the main premises of the NCAA report was that SC, with great power, had a “greater responsibility” than they demonstrated. This theme was repeated over and over in the report and effectively, this was the standard set in the report.

“As far as one player... the NCAA imposed sanctions against USC because of violations involving MULTIPLE players in MULTIPLE sports.” - The basketball violation was self-reported. If you want to include a female swimmer using the telephone to call her parents in Europe, then yes, it was multiple sports/violations. This was also self-reported, fyi.

“The NCAA was able to demonstrate that the AD knew about the issues at USC and did nothing to stop them and they let the environment that spawned them exist.” – Completely false. I didn’t read this in the NCAA report either, but please cite where you are getting this from. What did Mike Garrett or the president know about and not stop?

“That's why Pete Carroll took off in the middle of the night.” Wtf??? USC was under investigation for FOUR years and Pete Carroll was there the entire time!
“There were systemic problems that the AD did nothing to rectify and even worse off, tried to bury evidence of.” – Please cite where the NCAA accuses USC of burying evidence?

For those who have read the NCAA report, the only direct evidence that links the USC coaches/administration to the Bush scandal is a two minute cell phone bill by one of Bush’s supposed wannabe agents and the running back coach, Todd McNair. That is not overwhelming evidence in my mind.

Anyone who has ever spoken to a NCAA football player knows that at any given time, athletes are in violation of some rule. If a football players sells their textbooks at the end of the year, that's a violation, but everyone does it. Thinking that SC is the evil empire and your school has a halo over its head is just ignorant.
Now I'll go back to your "elaboration post" to answer a few questions for you:

Did USC self report? Yes, they self reported some minor violations while DENYING MAJOR VIOLATIONS and tried to pass of other major violations as secondary ones.

Did USC get slapped with LOIC because their AD was corrupt? Yes, under article 7 in your own article (7. LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL. [NCAA Constitution 2.1.1, 2.1.2,
2.8.1 and 6.01.1] ) the NCAA clearly states that USC did not take proper steps to ensure that major violations were not occurring on their own campus and that "in this case, the institution failed to heed clear warning signs." Up to and including monitoring of a student-athlete using a phone IN THERE OWN OFFICE to make $7,535 worth of long distance calls. I guess in this case the corrupt part is in the opinion of the reader, I personally see that as corrupt as they clearly knew what was going on.

Were there MULTIPLE violations by athletes in MULTIPLE sports? Yes, and your claim that they self-reported the basketball violations is erroneous as they reported some secondary ones while failing to report any major violations and they self-reported the phone calls as a secondary violation while it was clearly major.

Was the NCAA was able to demonstrate that the AD knew about the issues at USC and did nothing to stop them and they let the environment that spawned them exist? Yes, they clearly imply that the AD knew about these issues and did nothing to stop them. Cited in the investigation article include: Particular instances of lack of institutional control were exhibited in deficiencies
in the following areas alleged by the enforcement staff: a) monitoring of student-
athlete 1's automobile registration; b) monitoring of student-athlete 1's
employment at the office of a sports marketing agent; c) involvement of boosters
and agents in the recruiting process; d) monitoring the number of countable
coaches in the football program; and e) monitoring long distance telephone calls
made from the department of athletics.
(page 46 1st paragraph)

I will not and have not claimed that USC tried to "bury evidence" merely that they clearly knew about the situation at hand and failed to report it or open their books to the NCAA. They did however try to smear the names of the parties reporting the violations to the NCAA in an attempt to discredit their reliability as a source.

As far as Pete Carroll... I wanna make this very clear: I DONT GIVE A FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK. My point was merely that USC clearly had MULTIPLE MAJOR violations in MULTIPLE sports and did not self report said MULTIPLE MAJOR violations in MULTIPLE sports. In no way are the infractions at THE Ohio State University comparable in any way to what went on at USC in neither quantity nor severity.

Now please stop this, I tire of it
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Last edited by Sloopy : 07-27-2011 at 11:19 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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They did however try to smear the names of the parties reporting the violations to the NCAA in an attempt to discredit their reliability as a source.

Now please stop this, I tire of it
SVM, big props for acutally reading the source docs. I agree with your assessment that SC effectively went into a defensive position and tried to discredit the NCAA committee. To me, they effectively challenged the NCAA. BIG MISTAKE IMO and I will never defend someone claiming Garrett or the administration at the time acted like pricks. We can debate if making $7,000+ of phone calls, which was self-reported, was a major or minor violation until we are blue in the face, but I tend to agree with SC's position that it was not a major infraction. With all the allegations that were swriling around at the time and a four-year investigation, I expected a stronger case by the NCAA, especially given the severity of the punishment. A lot of the evidence that the committe used was weak imo (I'm thinking a recorded phone conversation would have been nice, not what one guys claims to the NCAA and a cell phone bill showing he was on the phone for 2 minutes...it may be possible that he left a 2 minute voice message) and the fact that so many other allegations were omitted tells me that the NCAA had nothing else on SC.

Anyways, Respect.
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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SVM, big props for acutally reading the source docs. I agree with your assessment that SC effectively went into a defensive position and tried to discredit the NCAA committee. To me, they effectively challenged the NCAA. BIG MISTAKE IMO and I will never defend someone claiming Garrett or the administration at the time acted like pricks. We can debate if making $7,000+ of phone calls, which was self-reported, was a major or minor violation until we are blue in the face, but I tend to agree with SC's position that it was not a major infraction. With all the allegations that were swriling around at the time and a four-year investigation, I expected a stronger case by the NCAA, especially given the severity of the punishment. A lot of the evidence that the committe used was weak imo (I'm thinking a recorded phone conversation would have been nice, not what one guys claims to the NCAA and a cell phone bill showing he was on the phone for 2 minutes...it may be possible that he left a 2 minute voice message) and the fact that so many other allegations were omitted tells me that the NCAA had nothing else on SC.

Anyways, Respect.
Respect man
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Respect man
You guys are both of the ****....

I kid I kid :) There was actual knowledgeable debate on this thread, which is sadly to rare. Good info from both of you.
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