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Old 11-06-2011, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Yeah. I think we all understand that, but it's just one of those times when you really want to get on them for it. This season has been reflexive of poor picks and missed opportunities that have been piling up since 2007. Nothing we can do about it, but it's hard to be happy with it either.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Just a disaster, so many guys have regressed from last year it's sickening. Brady, Branch, Woodhead, Vollmer, Mankins, McCourty, Mayo, Ninkovich, and others have played very underwhelming this year. I think last year was such a mirage. We knew this rebuilding day was coming, but with all the things that happened last year I think we thought we weren't going to go through it. Now it's painfully obvious what is happening to this team.

We need new blood on the coaching staff and in the front office. Patch things up with Mangini because as much as I don't like the guy he's a better defensive coach at this juncture than BB. It's not his style but Kraft needs to tell Belichick to use his freaking picks for once. Stop wasting time with veteran fill ins and actually get some fresh young blood on this team! The whole back 7 has been a joke this year, no wide receivers outside of Gronkowski and Welker can get open, the line is regressing at a shocking pace, Brady is playing his worst football in years, and oh by the way the pass rush still is god awful. I'm pulling my hair out watching this team week to week, and sadly it isn't going to get any better.
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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We can waste picks all we want until we actually find a GM. I'm not sure anyone in here currently knows how to pick pony's when the money is actually on the line. I'm not sure what's scarier; passing on players because we're the smartest people in the room and don't need to try to find elite players...or actually trying to pick them. The one time we've used a high draft pick recently we ended up with Mayo. I think we can all agree that he's a pretty damn good player, but it's questionable if he was worth a top ten pick. Highly questionable.


But yeah, the people actually on this team deserve some flak too. Mankins in particular is a guy who has stood out and frankly shocked me with his level of play. He earned every dollar on that contract for what he did in the past, but he's just flat out not playing well so far. Branch has gone MIA and during this stretch and it's questionable if he'll find his way back. So many names really.

As far as Mangini goes specifically; I would love that. Really, really love it. Even though things have been rough between him and the organization, I've always felt he's entirely more capable as a coach than many have given him credit for. I'm not sure it's time to get rid of Bill, but again; we need stronger voices and more contributors on the coaching staff.
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:33 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure what's scarier; passing on players because we're the smartest people in the room and don't need to try to find elite players...or actually trying to pick them.
This.

I'm so sick of them neglecting obvious needs. It seems to happen every season, with them trying some strange combination of veterans to try to substitute for a player who they got rid of, or to fill a glaring weakness.

For example here is some of the brilliant reasoning we've seen recently:

"We don't need Ty Law we can get Duane Starks and we'll just play Troy Brown at nickel corner."

"Who needs depth at linebacker? If anything happens to Tedy Bruschi we have Monty Beisel and Chad Brown on speed dial."

"Givens and Branch gone? It's Reche time!"

"Asante wants to get paid? Fine, we'll get Deltha O'Neal he's a ballhawk!"

"Seymour wants too much money, let him go Jarvis Green is just as good as he is."

"Lets just get rid of Moss. We can get Branch instead. 5 yard outs baby!"

and now this year's edition,

"Our pass defense sucks, you know what we should do?" "I've got it lets jettison our most reliable secondary players and replace them with Phillip Adams, Antwan Moulden, Josh Barrett, and James Ihedigbo." "They probably won't even get thrown at because opposing offenses will be under too much pressure from Mark Anderson and Albert Haynesworth."
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Old 11-06-2011, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Duane Starks
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Monty Beisel
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Chad Brown
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It's Reche time!"
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Fine, we'll get Deltha O'Neal he's a ballhawk!"



But yeah, we're really starting to die by our failures personnel wise. We've spent years trying to justify the moves this team, which isn't very far off from a Super Bowl run(or wasn't anyway), and now we're starting to see that there really isn't one. It's pretty amazing how well we've done with roster fodder, guys people have cut and draft picks that haven't lived up to even modest expectations. Still doesn't justify any of it though.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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This wasn't as bad of a defensive performance as it might have seemed. I'm actually blaming the offense.

1) The only TD [before the one with 3 minutes left] they gave up was the offenses fault. They only gave up 1 field goal.

2) The field position definitely favored the Giants. The offense didn't seem to be able to change that much.

3) Gostkowski... sigh.

4) Where was Tom Brady in the first half of the game and who was that imposter wearing his jersey?

5) The defense that "folded" was Pat Chung mistiming an easy INT and Sergio Brown making one of the dumbest plays I've seen all year. I thought the score really could have been easily stopped.

6) This is the second week in a row that teams have played man coverage and the Patriots have been unable to get off the field. They need someone who can force the defense to play cover two zone. (like Moss did in 07 and 08)
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:22 AM    (permalink
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I think the blame clearly falls on the offense for three fourth of the game. We were just discussing the defense from a personnel perspective; they actually played pretty well yesterday up until the end. You can absolutely get on them for blowing it at the end though. Huge mental error by Sergio Brown at the end really screwed is. We're also apparently thin enough that we need to insert Tracy friggan White in there in one of the biggest sports of the season. So yeah, they get credit for playing well for three quarters yesterday, but I'm not at all enthusiastic about this being any kind of turn around. We still just flat out lack talent on that side of the ball. We'll probably do a decent job on the Jets because of their offensive issues, but don't make any mistake; we caught a major break against the Giants with Nicks and Bradshaw being out. When push comes to shove, nothing has changed.


But yeah, I really agree completely about needing someone on offensive who can threaten down the field. Or anyone with a pulse really. We have one receiver right now who is capable of making plays
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:45 AM    (permalink
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I mean I thought we all understood at this point that we don't draft for position of need. I wont even get my hopes us expecting us to get anyone we want or a position of need. And seriously what happened this off season? I miss Sanders and Merriweather ( Both better than anyone else we have behind Chung)/
That only applies to pass rushers. They've drafted every other need position early. Only other exception might be WR.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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Desensitized because of last week. But some heads need the ******* roll about playing Tracy White.
Spikes and Guyton were both hurt and off the field
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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Not trying to bash, but I'm curious...How has Haynesworth looked? 6 games and only 3 tackles?
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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The DL has been really good this year. Haynesworth is a huge part of that. He commands two blockers every play, just like Wilfork. It's baffling that they don't have a bajillion sacks, actually.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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The DL has been really good this year. Haynesworth is a huge part of that. He commands two blockers every play, just like Wilfork. It's baffling that they don't have a bajillion sacks, actually.
This. He's only a rotational player (everyone not named Wilfork is) but when he's out there, you notice it. He's always collapsing the pocket. Dude is so effin' strong, it's ridiculous.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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Not trying to bash, but I'm curious...How has Haynesworth looked? 6 games and only 3 tackles?
He's been decent. No sacks this year, but he's drawn at least five holds that I can remember and really looked disruptive.


....he can't stay on the field though.
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Old 11-07-2011, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha Oh man good lord we had to just let one of our special team LBs on the one TE thats killed us ALL DAMN DAY. Jesus BB what were you thinking?
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Why is Tracy White playing anything other than Special Teams?
Seriously . . . I was screaming "who the **** is 58 and why is he on the field??!!"

Brady looked like **** and didn't get much help from his receivers. But we really need someone who can make a defense defend the great big area of grass 20+ yards from the line of scrimmage.

I completely agree that we look like a team that is way overmatched in talent. The only thing that doesn't need fixing is OL, QB, TE and Vince.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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I thought 58 was Gary Guyton... :/ Then I realized it was Tracy White lol.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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This wasn't as bad of a defensive performance as it might have seemed. I'm actually blaming the offense.

1) The only TD [before the one with 3 minutes left] they gave up was the offenses fault. They only gave up 1 field goal.

2) The field position definitely favored the Giants. The offense didn't seem to be able to change that much.

3) Gostkowski... sigh.

4) Where was Tom Brady in the first half of the game and who was that imposter wearing his jersey?

5) The defense that "folded" was Pat Chung mistiming an easy INT and Sergio Brown making one of the dumbest plays I've seen all year. I thought the score really could have been easily stopped.

6) This is the second week in a row that teams have played man coverage and the Patriots have been unable to get off the field. They need someone who can force the defense to play cover two zone. (like Moss did in 07 and 08)

I agree, but for a long time, the argument why the defense wasn't as bad as it seemed was that they came through when they needed to. Well, they haven't come through for 2 weeks now. With 1:45 left, I was fully anticipating going to overtime, but alas, that was merely wishful thinking. Brown was a starter earlier this year, so its not like he was just signed off the street and thrown into such a huge situation.

Connolly got OWNED yesterday. Mankins was up and down, as he has been all year. Light will be gone next year with Solder at LT (barring Vollmer's back being a long term issue), and hopefully Cannon at RG (hearing lots of good things about him, but hopefully he is fully healthy first).

Next year, need at least 1 safety, a center, 2 linebackers, a WR, and a new offensive coordinator.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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Eh... I like O'Brien. I'd give up the entire draft to have Mangini back, though.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I think some moves that we gotta make this offseason:

Cut Matt Light -- Draft late round depth (Saves $3,500,000)
Cut Chad Ochocinco -- (Saves approx 1 mil)
Cut Deion Branch -- (I think he might be a FA anyway)

Extend Wes Welker -- 3-4 year deal.
Do not resign guys like Light, Branch etc.

Make a play for one of these FAs:

WR: Reggie Wayne, Marques Colston, Steve Johnson, Vincent Jackson
DE: Cliff Avril,
Make a big play towards: Laron Landry, Michael Griffin, Tyvon Branch
LB: Stephen Tulloch woul be a nice fit.
Maybe sign a guy like Jeff Saturday, Matt Birk

Trade up for an impact defender like Courtney Upshaw.
Use the other 1st for a Safety or another pass rusher depending on FA.
Trade down the 2nd to get us some later round picks back.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bigburt63 View Post
Next year, need at least 1 safety, a center, 2 linebackers, a WR, and a new offensive coordinator.
I agree with the safety and center. I don't think the Patriots should draft a WR unless they get a steal.

I still think Taylor Price is getting the short end of the stick. 1, his season last year was cut short because of his college's graduate policy (so he couldn't join the team until late July) and this year it was lockout shortened. He's got the physical talent to do what the Patriots need at WR. I just think he needs the time.

The linebackers are kind of solid, but they could use a 43 OLB if they want to play a 43 defense. The guys we have now are just not athletic enough to cover.

I think the biggest need is at rush end. They still can't force QBs into bad throws. That's the biggest reason why the DBs look so bad.
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Old 11-07-2011, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm done with guys who need more time. It sounds so nice. I would really like to believe it, and obviously Price has talent...but we've heard that forever about guys. Always encouraging signs, but never any production...then suddenly they're out the door. Not doing the Brandon Tate dance again.

Not a real indictment of Price. I like what I've seen in a small sample size. It's high time to draft guys who can play today though, because these tomorrow guys aren't cutting it.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BradysKnee View Post
I think some moves that we gotta make this offseason:

Cut Matt Light -- Draft late round depth (Saves $3,500,000)
Cut Chad Ochocinco -- (Saves approx 1 mil)
Cut Deion Branch -- (I think he might be a FA anyway)

Extend Wes Welker -- 3-4 year deal.
Do not resign guys like Light, Branch etc.

Make a play for one of these FAs:

WR: Reggie Wayne, Marques Colston, Steve Johnson, Vincent Jackson
DE: Cliff Avril,
Make a big play towards: Laron Landry, Michael Griffin, Tyvon Branch
LB: Stephen Tulloch woul be a nice fit.
Maybe sign a guy like Jeff Saturday, Matt Birk

Trade up for an impact defender like Courtney Upshaw.
Use the other 1st for a Safety or another pass rusher depending on FA.
Trade down the 2nd to get us some later round picks back.
I agree with almost everything you said.

Wondering what you guys feel like is the most pressing issue for this team to address either free agency or draft?

At this point I feel like its OLB/DE. Would love to see Upshaw in a Pats uniform.

Quick rundown of my thoughts. Opinions are always welcome.
- Try and trade for Osi. A Winner, plays for a good coach and organization, tough and nasty. Our d line needs this type of guy with Wilfork. Would give up a 2012 2nd rounder for him.
-Or sign Avril.

- Draft OLB and S if we don't sign any free agents. First 2 rounds.

- Go after a top WR. V Jax or Colston.

- If you can trade Welker for a 2012 1st rounder pull the trigger. As long as either Ocho/Price/Branch start to play well during this season. I love Welker but imagine dangling him out there to a team like Stl, Minn, Ari, Cleve.

-Address the starting line issues. Sign or draft C and shuffle around Solder/Vollmer. Also would like to see Cannon, hopefully.
- Cut light.

This team has to many play makers on it and need only a few pieces on the defensive side of the ball. We need to add at least another quality LB and a safety that can read the play and communicate.

Would like to see Bill use both 1st rounders either trade up or stay put.

Trade out or trade one of the seconds.


First post. Love the forum.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BradysKnee View Post
I think some moves that we gotta make this offseason:

Cut Matt Light -- Draft late round depth (Saves $3,500,000)
Cut Chad Ochocinco -- (Saves approx 1 mil)
Cut Deion Branch -- (I think he might be a FA anyway)

Extend Wes Welker -- 3-4 year deal.
Do not resign guys like Light, Branch etc.

Make a play for one of these FAs:

WR: Reggie Wayne, Marques Colston, Steve Johnson, Vincent Jackson
DE: Cliff Avril,
Make a big play towards: Laron Landry, Michael Griffin, Tyvon Branch
LB: Stephen Tulloch woul be a nice fit.
Maybe sign a guy like Jeff Saturday, Matt Birk

Trade up for an impact defender like Courtney Upshaw.
Use the other 1st for a Safety or another pass rusher depending on FA.
Trade down the 2nd to get us some later round picks back.
I think you have some good points in there, but I also think you're missing the point with Saturday and Birk. None of those will be an upgrade over anything we have at center. I really want Peter Konz, but if he's out of our reach I want Mike Brewster. We need size, strength and intelligence and center, and they have it.

Koppen, Light, Ocho, Branch, Sergio Brown, Barret and Brace out. Re-sign Welker (or franchise with intend to trade), extend Mayo and Vollmer. I don't think we're getting any of the receivers you mentioned though, since they will ask for a lot of money. We don't do that normally, but maybe BB goes into 2007 FA mode. One can always dream lol...

I think we all agree on drafting OLB, S and DE in the first (or a center). I'd love to get Juron Criner or someone similar in the third or so.

Also welcome to fuct91. I'm open to the idea of trading Welker, but it has to be a good deal. A first plus a third or fourth minimum. Welker might be turning 30, but he's better than ever and we sure could use him.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:22 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
I think you have some good points in there, but I also think you're missing the point with Saturday and Birk. None of those will be an upgrade over anything we have at center. I really want Peter Konz, but if he's out of our reach I want Mike Brewster. We need size, strength and intelligence and center, and they have it.

Koppen, Light, Ocho, Branch, Sergio Brown, Barret and Brace out. Re-sign Welker (or franchise with intend to trade), extend Mayo and Vollmer. I don't think we're getting any of the receivers you mentioned though, since they will ask for a lot of money. We don't do that normally, but maybe BB goes into 2007 FA mode. One can always dream lol...

I think we all agree on drafting OLB, S and DE in the first (or a center). I'd love to get Juron Criner or someone similar in the third or so.

Also welcome to fuct91. I'm open to the idea of trading Welker, but it has to be a good deal. A first plus a third or fourth minimum. Welker might be turning 30, but he's better than ever and we sure could use him.
Trading Welker would come with a very hefty price tag. I can't see BB letting him go for anything less than a 1&3.

As for the center situation, I' rather take a guy like Saturday and keep it OK and upgrade the defense than use a pick on a center at this point.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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The Patriots would never get a 1st rounder for Welker, who is already 30.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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The Patriots would never get a 1st rounder for Welker, who is already 30.
Not to mix apples and oranges but I never expected Carson Palmer being worth a 1st and 2nd(possibly 1st).

If he is franchised you basically have him under control for the next two years with the new rules and penalities pertaining to holdouts.
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