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Old 11-29-2011, 09:34 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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Originally Posted by JHL6719 View Post
He became overrated the instant I heard him being tabbed as the next Patrick Willis. He's not and never was.

Good player? Possibly, if he learns how to wrap up and secure a ball carrier in order to bring him to the ground instead of whiffing trying to make a sportscenter highlight.

Maybe learn how to play without drawing 2 or 3 personal fouls a game that are a detriment to the team.... along with figuring out how to avoid being out of position so much.

Other than all that and probably a few other minor things, yeah he's Dick Butkus.
I really hate this stigma related to him.

Please watch one of the two videos of his entire game against two different teams (You don't even have to read a lick o my analysis of the games) and you still tell me you think he needs to learn to wrap up tackles or that he goes for the big hit rather than the smart play.

The personal fouls are a definite negative, I happen to believe that a # of them are based on reputation alone. i.e. the second one against Oregon; the whistle hadn't even blown before the hit, nor was the player out of bounds. The first one was definitely a bone headed move.

I also really don't see how you can say he's out of position a lot. He almost always is in the right place at the right time, either making the tackle or aiding in the gang tackle.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would really like one of the naysayers to explain this to me having watched the game. The only one to even try was Slinger and no offense Slinger but I just cannot see how 2-3 plays over the entirety of a game of messing up his gap control makes the guy a bust. There are professionals in the NFL who make these mistakes currently... some of the greatest players of all time in the NFL have made mistakes in college.

I just don't see how you can give this guy a bad grade outside of the penalties. I don't disagree that this will push him down boards (in fact I'm really hoping on it) but he isn't the first player to ever come out of college with this problem and he won't be the last.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Burfict is way underrated at this point.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Burfict is way underrated at this point.
where would you rate him (round-wise)? Because right now i think his stock went from a top 15 pick to a late 2nd
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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where would you rate him (round-wise)? Because right now i think his stock went from a top 15 pick to a late 2nd
I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.
that's what I was thinking, but we've seen players fall multiple rounds for reasons we ourselves (draftniks) thought were minor.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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that's what I was thinking, but we've seen players fall multiple rounds for reasons we ourselves (draftniks) thought were minor.
Though I look at a guy like Rey Maualuga. Everyone was surprised when he got out of the 1st round. He was also had guy with maturity issues, got in some fights off the field, etc and in hindsight, was not on the same level talent wise as Taze and Rey went 38th overall. Taze will struggle in his interviews and might turn some teams off, but above all else, teams want talented football players and Taze is exactly that.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Though I look at a guy like Rey Maualuga. Everyone was surprised when he got out of the 1st round. He was also had guy with maturity issues, got in some fights off the field, etc and in hindsight, was not on the same level talent wise as Taze and Rey went 38th overall. Taze will struggle in his interviews and might turn some teams off, but above all else, teams want talented football players and Taze is exactly that.
Yea I mean I could see him being the last of the big 3 ILB prospects taken, and in fact I have mocked it this way in my last two dating back a month now, but I don't see guys like Hightower going before a team would take Taze.

The guy has some flaws but you know he is going to put up nice triangle #'s at the combine and is still a top talent in this draft.

I'd say he might fall out of the first, other than the fact that I really don't see him making it past Baltimore :P
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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It's not a highlight video, it's every snap that he played in the game against USC.
Wouldn't know. Didn't watch the game and didn't watch the highlight video. To do a video in about 5 minutes, he must be on the bench for quite some time in that game. I know he's less than mediocre against the pass, and a liability for the next level, but if he's seeing less than 30 snaps a game (according to you) ... then does that give you pause for concern?

I watched the 4th QT of the Arizona St game last week and the only LB I saw that looked any good was #6. Burfict wasn't even in the game. Someone said he was benched in this thread (conveniently overlooked by you), but I don't know if they sat him the whole game, halfway through or what the circumstances were. I know I didn't see him at all in the 4th QT. I was drinking at a sports bar and could not even tell you who they played.

I've already discussed Burfict in other Burfict related threads. My opinion on him has not really changed.

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...38#post2594938

We all get that he's your favorite player, we get it, but don't expect that your are going to impose your will upon anyway by saying he's all world at everything he does. He has flaws. Accept them and move on. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, and when you don't back it up with anything (no, posting a highlight video does not count), then there's no point in looking stupid by bitching at other posters. Just let it go.
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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Wouldn't know. Didn't watch the game and didn't watch the highlight video. To do a video in about 5 minutes, he must be on the bench for quite some time in that game. I know he's less than mediocre against the pass, and a liability for the next level, but if he's seeing less than 30 snaps a game (according to you) ... then does that give you pause for concern?
He is no more of a liability against the pass than most ILB in this game. Kuechly might have an edge on him against the pass in this class but he's not terrible against it by any stretch. His snaps per game is because I'm pretty sure that like most ILB, he does not see snaps in obvious passing situations or while the team is in certain packages.

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I watched the 4th QT of the Arizona St game last week and the only LB I saw that looked any good was #6. Burfict wasn't even in the game. Someone said he was benched in this thread (conveniently overlooked by you), but I don't know if they sat him the whole game, halfway through or what the circumstances were. I know I didn't see him at all in the 4th QT. I was drinking at a sports bar and could not even tell you who they played.
Yes someone did mention his benching, I am not going to claim to be knowledgeable of it though as I am not. I can assume that it has something to do with the penalties, but that would just be me assuming.

Quote:
I've already discussed Burfict in other Burfict related threads. My opinion on him has not really changed.
I was in this same boat, I am really tired of guys like JBCX claiming things in threads then not backing them up when people appose them, just to post it in another thread.

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We all get that he's your favorite player, we get it, but don't expect that your are going to impose your will upon anyway by saying he's all world at everything he does. He has flaws. Accept them and move on. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, and when you don't back it up with anything (no, posting a highlight video does not count), then there's no point in looking stupid by bitching at other posters. Just let it go.
My favorite player in this draft actually happens to be Mike Adams... I never said he was all world he has flaws like the boneheaded penalties which I acknowledged as well as the fact that he isn't a beast in coverage (just that he isn't that much worse than anyone else in this draft and probably better than some)

You don't have to accept my beliefs on the subject, there are plenty on this board that do, but to say I didn't back it up is asinine. You claimed that I was making blanket statements about the guy so I pulled out video's of some of his games (no they are not highlight videos as much as you would like them to be, they aren't a series of singular plays from different games with cool music to make him look badass).

Actually, if anyone hasn't backed up what they are saying, it's you...

You say he is less than mediocre against the pass: Where is your proof? Your just making blanket statements and not backing them up.

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Burfict wont be a first round pick, and if he is, it'll be based all on potential. I have no idea what is going on in this thread. The kid from BC is far superior. #40, someone mentioned him but I'm too lazy to look it up and it's hard to pronounce, but he has much better instincts, a much better motor and plays sideline-to-sideline. Also much smarter with better instincts and technique. Lacks the size, strength and physicality of Burfict though and struggles at times disengaging from blockers. Not as much upside or potential
Okay... where is your proof?

I can make the same asinine comments you can. Go ahead say I didn't back it up, but I have done more to do so than you have.

Sorry if you think I'm bitching, I was accused of not backing up my argument and went to great lengths to do so, now I'm gunna call you out when you don't back yours up.

Now this is the last time I'm gunna feed you
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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He does wrap up. And does take his shots like most guys do as well. Good at attacking the line as well.

Decent in coverage, and sometimes over runs the play.

I don't see how he doesn't go in round 1.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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I think he ends up going anywhere from 20-40. He's just far too talented to fall much further.
I would go a bit lower, maybe 25-50. he has a lot to learn about proper technique, but technique is coachable. I dont see the second coming of Jack Lambert, but a few Prop Bowls are possible.

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He does wrap up. And does take his shots like most guys do as well. Good at attacking the line as well.

Decent in coverage, and sometimes over runs the play.

I don't see how he doesn't go in round 1.
Sometimes? Does he ever stay home?

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Old 11-30-2011, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Future Titan in the 2nd round. I like it, Decastro and Vontaze two first rounders in one draft.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Sometimes? Does he ever stay home?
Yea... and I'm tired of arguing it. I've put up multiple video's and spent a great deal of time explaining it. Please show me a game were more often than not the guy doesn't make solid tackles and mind his gaps. 1 or 2 plays here or there doesn't mean he never stays home. In his case, over pursuit is the exception, not the rule.


End of the day, you can dislike him all you want. Dude doesn't make it out of the first round. Even if he falls a bit, some team is going to be giddy as **** to land him late in the round.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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He is no more of a liability against the pass than most ILB in this game. Kuechly might have an edge on him against the pass in this class
Kuechly might have an edge? Pass coverage is one of Kuechly's greatest strengths as a LB. If you think there is even a debate as far as their athletic ability in space, dropping into zones (especially deep into zones) and their awareness in pass coverage, then I would say you are not looking at either prospect from a neutral perspective. I have come down quite a bit on Kuechly. I think he's an early second round, late first type prospect because he plays the opposite of Burfict (a little too finesse and struggles to disengage from blockers, gets engulfed). And that's pretty much exactly what I see with Burfict. Burfict has more potential and upside because he has natural strength (he doesn't have an overly impressive physique), size and can really take on blockers (he's just inconsistent with it). Burfict is really raw and plays stupid. Thats my chief complaint with him. He gets too caught up with the game within the game and takes knockout shots on offensive linemen while completely disregarding the ball carrier. Instead of disengaging, he constantly getting involved in shoving matches with linemen.

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but he's not terrible against it by any stretch. His snaps per game is because I'm pretty sure that like most ILB, he does not see snaps in obvious passing situations or while the team is in certain packages.
To the point where you are missing half the snaps for each game? Thats not normal. Is Patrick Willis on the bench for half the 49ers plays? Was he on the bench when he was at Ole Miss? How about Jerod Mayo? James Laurinaitis? Or maybe I should mention Ray Lewis since he isn't compared to guys like Mayo and Laurinaitis? You are making excuses.

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Actually, if anyone hasn't backed up what they are saying, it's you...

You say he is less than mediocre against the pass: Where is your proof? Your just making blanket statements and not backing them up.
Part of my proof is from watching him. Part of my proof is from you as well where you concede the fact that he isn't a "beast" in pass coverage. Part of my proof is that he's never made a play against the pass that was more than 10 yards down field. Part of my proof is that he doesn't have very good change of direction, he's ain't any good in space. Part of my proof is from the simple fact that they take him out of the game on obvious passing downs.


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Okay... where is your proof?

I can make the same asinine comments you can. Go ahead say I didn't back it up, but I have done more to do so than you have.
I guess my proof is everything else in the post that you failed to quote.
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Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Found it interesting Vontaze wasn't listed on either the first or second team in the new 2011 Pac 12 all conference team.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBanger View Post
I guess my proof is everything else in the post that you failed to quote.
I'm tired of arguing with you... if you don't believe me why don't you listen to the guy who's draft board you are using... listen to the first 10 minutes or so

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/draftco...raft-countdown

from 11/29

Quote:
Vontaze Burfict, on talent alone, is a legitimate top 10-15 overall pick in the NFL draft
Scott and Shane both have different views on where he should go but both seemingly agree that he is a top NFL talent.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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i have visions of this guy in a buc uniform. don't know if its good or bad
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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Extremely overrated. Maybe the most overrated player. I don't think he should be drafted in the 1st round or even early in the 2nd round. Dumb, constantly out of position, out of control, bad technique. He will probably punch my face and break my neck, but I just gave an honest opinion. Luke Kuechly could teach him how to play LB.
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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Extremely overrated. Maybe the most overrated player. I don't think he should be drafted in the 1st round or even early in the 2nd round. Dumb, constantly out of position, out of control, bad technique. He will probably punch my face and break my neck, but I just gave an honest opinion. Luke Kuechly could teach him how to play LB.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:31 PM    (permalink
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
after watching the oregon video, i wouldn't want him. i like his violence, but he made like, 2 tackles all game that were within 5 yards of the LOS? made the completely wrong read on two (iirc) huge runs? meh. i'd take him in the 2nd on potential, but i wouldn't want anything to do with him in the first.
Oregon game he definitely wasn't his greatest game, I do like some of the effort plays he makes in the game though. The guy always seems to be around the ball.

He won't be the first ILB to be abused by Oregon's run game and he won't be the last. Still he does fairly well against one of the best rushing attacks in the country.

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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'll be fair and note that i'm still going through the other videos. but that was... lackluster.
I don't know how you feel about the other top two ILB prospects but I would venture to say that they would probably have struggled equally against the Oregon running attack. IIRC Kuechly is the closest to facing such an attack (VT 26th overall in rushing vs Oregon at 5)
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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Yeah after watching that Illy game I noticed that to. Good at making the open field 1 on 1 tackles. But if a linemen get his hands on him or in his zone he has problems. I saw him shed 1 or 2 blocks, and got taken out a few times.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i don't know that that's a good thing though. a guy i'm going to take in the top 20 shouldn't "struggle" against anyone. i can understand a linebacker is at the mercy of a few other factors in the game, but he just looked bad most of the time.
I mean I definitely think he falls a bit, it's apparent that many have concerns about him. I just tend to agree with Scott that based on talent and with his amazing upside he is a top talent in this draft.

I would be ecstatic to have him on my team. I get that Kuechly might be considered the safer pick, but safe doesn't necessarily turn into the best player. Not that I would mind Kuechly either I would just prefer Burfict.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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