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Old 12-04-2011, 07:38 PM    (permalink
Vinny Chase
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Hey I guess we can each have our own opinion on the matter, to me Barkley pretty much makes Woods and Lee what they are. I just personally think that all of Griffin's accomplishments can be attributed to the system he plays in and the conference he plays in. And you can't tell me that Baylor isn't talented, they just put up over 48 points on Texas. Also Griffin's receivers make Griffin look a ton better than he actually is, if it weren't for them he would be pretty mediocre if you ask me.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Vinny Chase View Post
Honestly I don't see why people are so enamored with RG3. I mean sure he's putting up nice numbers but that is really just a result of playing in an extremely weak conference and being surrounded by a plethora of great talent. If you put him on a situation like Matt Barkley where he is playing against top notch talent week in and week out without a single receiver to throw to he would be putting up about half the stats that he is.
What top notch competition is Barkley playing week in and week out??
Unless you're an SEC QB you don't usually face shutdown defenses most Saturdays.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:04 PM    (permalink
Vinny Chase
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I guess Top Notch talent wasn't the right word but I certainly think that Barkley has faced much stiffer competition than RG3 has in the Big 12. Obviously there is no conference that even compares to the SEC but I think that the Pac 12 could easily be the next best.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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What top notch competition is Barkley playing week in and week out??
Unless you're an SEC QB you don't usually face shutdown defenses most Saturdays.
please. shutdown defenses? LSU, Alabama, and then...?
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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Baylor certainly doesn't have top notch talent. They've done a good job developing the guys that Texas, A&M, and Tech don't want to go after, but they're still Baylor. Robert Griffin and Art Briles have done a great job turning that program around, but saying that they're on par with Texas and USC? Lolwut?
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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Add upside too. Significant upside. That's one thing I think that's being lost in the conversation; Griffin has the potential to get so much better, even still.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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I love this kid and I'd be so happy if he somehow ended up in KC. I think he's going to kill in the interviews. Hopefully Pioli falls in love with him.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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so who does Barkley have to throw to then???? SC hasn't had a real go to wide out since Dwayne Jarrett. All I'm saying is that Barkley has had a tremendous season with an extremely weak supporting cast.
Oh. My. Gosh.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Hey I guess we can each have our own opinion on the matter, to me Barkley pretty much makes Woods and Lee what they are. I just personally think that all of Griffin's accomplishments can be attributed to the system he plays in and the conference he plays in. And you can't tell me that Baylor isn't talented, they just put up over 48 points on Texas. Also Griffin's receivers make Griffin look a ton better than he actually is, if it weren't for them he would be pretty mediocre if you ask me.
OH. MY. GOSH.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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Hey I guess we can each have our own opinion on the matter, to me Barkley pretty much makes Woods and Lee what they are. I just personally think that all of Griffin's accomplishments can be attributed to the system he plays in and the conference he plays in. And you can't tell me that Baylor isn't talented, they just put up over 48 points on Texas. Also Griffin's receivers make Griffin look a ton better than he actually is, if it weren't for them he would be pretty mediocre if you ask me.
I pretty much believe the exact opposite of this. Both conferences have trash defenses. Woods is the best route runner in college football since Tory Holt and Marquise Lee is constantly getting open deep with nobody within 10 yards of him. Tough to knock RGIII's system, too, because that USC system has incredibly simple pass concepts.

I mean, I can't knock Barkley for having talented wide receivers directly. But if you isolate him, you'll see a lot of throws down the field where Lee has to slow up and wait for it. It doesn't matter because he's so open to begin with, but those aren't getting completed in the NFL.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Mid to late 1st for me right now, but it's early in the process. Give him the Heisman right now though. What a tremendous season he's had.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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there aren't any questions about his arm. he has had questionable accuracy if anything (though not shown in stats b/c of the offense he is in), but that comes in part from footwork and running around out of the pocket. No question this kid has the zip on his ball to fire it in there on all the throws and he throws a terrific deep ball. If people are okay with Luck and Barkley's arm then they will have no problem whatsoever with Griffin's.
I believe you are right on about his arm strength and I firmly think he will rise substantially during the combine because his intangibles are pretty close to Luck's.
It won't surprise me if he gives Barkley all the competition he can handle for the #2 spot among QB's and maybe in the draft.
This kid is very special IMO and if his arm strength is above average, the team that drafts him will have its franchise QB.
If you wondering why I bring up arm strength all the time, it is because college offensive systems can be very deceptive in hiding this weakness by rarely asking a QB to make throws he cannot complete. I really believe RG111 has a solid arm but I'm still waiting for outside confirmation from a reliable source, say like a Mayock or a Casserly before I will completely trust my own eyes. TV has a way of slowing down the speed of a thrown ball and judging arm strength when it isn't elite is a tricky thing on TV as I have learned from past experience.
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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For the people who are claiming that he doesn't face competition as good as Barkley's:

RGIII beat Oklahoma and Texas, and a solid TCU squad. And he didnt' just beat them, he PILLAGED them.

Tell me that's not decent competition.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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For the people who are claiming that he doesn't face competition as good as Barkley's:

RGIII beat Oklahoma and Texas, and a solid TCU squad. And he didnt' just beat them, he PILLAGED them.

Tell me that's not decent competition.
Exactly. Those defenses are just as good as Oregon, Stanford and ND's defense. USC's 3 toughest games. I think these guys are 2-3 in the draft. One coach may prefer one over the other. Another coach the opposite. I'm predicting two trades up to get these guys. My hunches are Miami and Washington because that allows the teams trading down(St. Louis and Minnesota to get an elite prospect+picks). I wouldn't discount Cleveland, KC and Seattle either.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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Exactly. Those defenses are just as good as Oregon, Stanford and ND's defense. USC's 3 toughest games. I think these guys are 2-3 in the draft. One coach may prefer one over the other. Another coach the opposite. I'm predicting two trades up to get these guys. My hunches are Miami and Washington because that allows the teams trading down(St. Louis and Minnesota to get an elite prospect+picks). I wouldn't discount Cleveland, KC and Seattle either.
Oklahoma and Texas probably play tougher defense than Stanford, Oregon, and Notre Dame. In fact, I'm sure of it.

I'd have Luck #1, and RGIII a clear-cut #2 at this point on the draft board.

Barkley is a close #3, which means that there are potentially THREE elite QB prospects in this draft. Teams that need a QB will be ecstatic this year.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Oklahoma's defense was not all that good, they got destroyed by Ok St. This takes away some of that luster on Griffin's Oklahoma victory not to mention that lucky bounce like that long Wright TD.

TCU had 6 new defensive starters and they played them the first game of the year, if Baylor played TCU at the end of the season that would of been a different game.

Texas was plagued by turnovers vs Baylor. They are the only defense I would of put above Stanford, Oregon and ND.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Oklahoma's defense was not all that good, they got destroyed by Ok St. This takes away some of that luster on Griffin's Oklahoma victory not to mention that lucky bounce like that long Wright TD.
You're going to tell me with a straight face that you'd take Stanford's defense, or Notre Dame's defense, over Oklahoma's?

Oklahoma State might put up 30+ points against LSU. They have one of the best offenses in CFB. Just because they put up a bunch of points against Oklahoma does not mean that Oklahoma's defense is bad.

Quote:
TCU had 6 new defensive starters and they played them the first game of the year, if Baylor played TCU at the end of the season that would of been a different game.
Or it might be the same. You don't know. All we know is that RGIII made TCU's defense look foolish already.

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Texas was plagued by turnovers vs Baylor. They are the only defense I would of put above Stanford, Oregon and ND.
I'd put all three of these defenses above Stanford, Oregon, and ND.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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You're going to tell me with a straight face that you'd take Stanford's defense, or Notre Dame's defense, over Oklahoma's?

Oklahoma State might put up 30+ points against LSU. They have one of the best offenses in CFB. Just because they put up a bunch of points against Oklahoma does not mean that Oklahoma's defense is bad.



Or it might be the same. You don't know. All we know is that RGIII made TCU's defense look foolish already.



I'd put all three of these defenses above Stanford, Oregon, and ND.

You forgot Oregon's defense as well.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Whenever I watch Griffin, there's always been something that's just a bit off. I had a hard time explaining it but it definitely frustrated me when I was evaluating him. But I think I figured it out. His biggest issue which is a major flaw but also actually makes me feel more comfortable with him because it's correctable. Griffin needs to re-work his mechanics from the ground up as he doesn't use his lower body to throw the ball. He has his little hop, narrows his base, stands straight-legged and just flings it with his arm opposed to setting a solid base, sticking his feet in the ground and driving the ball down field. On top of that, we see him over-stride when he does try to step into his throw which causes him to throw off balanced and more importantly takes away from the velocity on his throws. But that's still connected to his issue about not using his lower body and his hips to throw the ball. Moving on up, I would say he needs to compact his release a bit so he can have more control of the ball as it leaves his hands.

Although these are major issues, they are fixable. And the fact that they are correctable gives me encouragement about his NFL prospects. If he can learn to throw from his feet up, strength his lower body and tighten up his release a bit, it will significantly improve his velocity on his throws and his ability to drive balls into tight windows as well as the control he has on his throws.

Thinking about where he could be with NFL coaching, I am now more excited about his upside than ever. However, banking your franchise on his ability to re-tool the way he throws the ball from the ground up is a very risky proposition. We just can't really project how much a guy can produce in that area. But how he is handled and the situation he is put in can really make or break his success - more so than most other top QB's in recent years.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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I've noticed the hop too and it's an interesting observation to make and you did a very good job verbalizing it, but it's not something that totally redefines the way I view him as a prospect nor do I think it's something that scouts will be seriously concerned with. Jake Locker had a massive problem with overstriding that was pointed out by some people last year. It held him back a little as a prospect, yeah, but ultimately it didn't hurt his draft position. Ponder had some things I didn't like mechanically last year too, but they didn't hurt him much either. I won't even mention Gabbert haha, because he shouldn't even really count(seriously, far and away the worst footwork I've ever seen in a guy that's supposed to be a top flight NFL prospect) , but I digress.

I don't think it's really all that big of a deal, even. One of Griffin's real strength is how he's able to square his shoulders up and go quickly from a "running" position to a throwing position. He might be taking some shortcuts to get there, but the way he's able to deliver an accurate ball into a tight space while on the move is what sets him apart from the rest of the pack for me...and what makes him a rare prospect. I would be more inclined to agree with you on the severity of it if it was adversely effecting his performance, but he's been nothing short of dominate even with some technical problems. No doubt there's a ton of room for improvement, but I don't think there's enough for him to have to redefine himself as a thrower in the NFL the way some prospect have had to(and succeeded in doing) in the past. You can never guarantee something like that can happen, so I see where you're coming from, but I guess I'm just not all that uncomfortable with his mechanics as they are presently constituted.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:56 PM    (permalink
onejayhawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinny Chase View Post
I guess Top Notch talent wasn't the right word but I certainly think that Barkley has faced much stiffer competition than RG3 has in the Big 12. Obviously there is no conference that even compares to the SEC but I think that the Pac 12 could easily be the next best.
Funny. Neither conference played much defense this year. Of the two, the best by far was Texas, who Baylor just lit up. The Pac12 had only 1 team in the top 25: Stanford at #25. At the very most you can claim Barkley faces as tough or more consistently tough. It is not even arguable he faced tougher.

You will also note that:

1. Robert Griffin III, BAY 192.3
2. Russell Wilson, WIS 191.6
3. Case Keenum, HOU 177.9
4. Kellen Moore, BSU 176.8
5. Andrew Luck, STAN 167.5

Barkley is #8. To me another key stat of a QB is Yds/att. RG III has a mind blowing 10.8. Barkley has a respectable 7.9, good for 32nd place. Considering what Russell Wilson is doing behind that NFL grade OL, it is astounding that anyone is ahead in either QB Rating or Td/Att, much less both.

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Old 12-05-2011, 10:58 PM    (permalink
onejayhawk
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Originally Posted by ElectricEye View Post
I've noticed the hop too and it's an interesting observation to make and you did a very good job verbalizing it, but it's not something that totally redefines the way I view him as a prospect nor do I think it's something that scouts will be seriously concerned with. Jake Locker had a massive problem with overstriding that was pointed out by some people last year. It held him back a little as a prospect, yeah, but ultimately it didn't hurt his draft position. Ponder had some things I didn't like mechanically last year too, but they didn't hurt him much either. I won't even mention Gabbert haha, because he shouldn't even really count(seriously, far and away the worst footwork I've ever seen in a guy that's supposed to be a top flight NFL prospect) , but I digress.

I don't think it's really all that big of a deal, even. One of Griffin's real strength is how he's able to square his shoulders up and go quickly from a "running" position to a throwing position. He might be taking some shortcuts to get there, but the way he's able to deliver an accurate ball into a tight space while on the move is what sets him apart from the rest of the pack for me...and what makes him a rare prospect. I would be more inclined to agree with you on the severity of it if it was adversely effecting his performance, but he's been nothing short of dominate even with some technical problems. No doubt there's a ton of room for improvement, but I don't think there's enough for him to have to redefine himself as a thrower in the NFL the way some prospect have had to(and succeeded in doing) in the past. You can never guarantee something like that can happen, so I see where you're coming from, but I guess I'm just not all that uncomfortable with his mechanics as they are presently constituted.
That hop seems to be resetting his feet, or adjusting the balance. As you say, he does not spread his feet for a solid base, but he does get excellent accuracy when he does it.

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Old 12-05-2011, 11:00 PM    (permalink
TACKLE
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There is no 'key stat'. Project skill sets, not stats.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
There is no 'key stat'. Project skill sets, not stats.
Granted. However stats are still useful, especially comparing two players of the same age or experience. Since Barkley is the more experienced, the comparison is particularly helpful.

BTW have you compared any tape of RG III 2010 to RG III 2011?

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