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Old 01-17-2012, 02:57 PM    (permalink
BeerBaron
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
When you have to rebuild, you rebuild. Staying in limbo is the worst possible move

Look at Carolina last year. We had an aging Steve Smith coming off a bad season and no one else going into the offseason for a QB to throw to. By far the worst offense in the NFL. But we took Cam anyway and added two TEs along with 4th and 6th string WRs from the Chargers

Worked out pretty well.

RGIII could bust. So could Tyler Wilson or whoever you eventually pick. But the sooner you figure that out the better. McCoy has had 2 seasons, that's long enough for a guy of his pedigree and physical limitations
Can you believe, that once upon a time (around this time last year), there were people who wanted you to give Clausen another chance and take someone other than Newton?

How does your franchise's outlook feel now?
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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Now there's the rumor out there that, with Hue out, Palmer could play the "trade me or I retire" card again.

You could have just traded a 1st and 2nd round pick for half a season of a guy throwing more INTs than TDs.

Think about that. Trading for Carson Palmer may very well turn out to be the worst trade in the history of the NFL, with Herschel Walker being the only other one I can think of.
I don't wanna think about it =(
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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I couldn't believe it at the time and still can't now

I just figured most people suggesting we stick with Clausen hadn't watched a single game of ours that year. Which I can't really blame them for...
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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I couldn't believe it at the time and still can't now

I just figured most people suggesting we stick with Clausen hadn't watched a single game of ours that year. Which I can't really blame them for...
I (unfortunately) watched several and...Clausen was a fish out of water on an NFL field. His existence is the only reason why Blaine Gabbert isn't the worst QB I've ever seen.

Colt McCoy isn't THAT bad, but he's got no ceiling. Maybe, MAYBE if you surrounded him with elite talent all over the place, he could be on the level of a post-9000 shoulder surgeries Chad Pennington. Maybe. But that's too much work for not enough payoff.

Go for Griffin. It's easier for a great QB to make the team around him look better than it is to build enough of a cast to support a mediocre QB.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I think GB pulls a Patriots and franchises Flynn. Then I think they trade him to the highest bidder. I think Cleveland would rather trade for Flynn than draft another McCoy, Quinn, or Couch. I know it's a new regime than the one that made those picks, but I think if you can get an experienced QB for a similar package than you would a rookie....you go for experience. The Browns may be able to get Flynn giving up the Falcons pick and a future #1, if that.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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I think GB pulls a Patriots and franchises Flynn. Then I think they trade him to the highest bidder. I think Cleveland would rather trade for Flynn than draft another McCoy, Quinn, or Couch. I know it's a new regime than the one that made those picks, but I think if you can get an experienced QB for a similar package than you would a rookie....you go for experience. The Browns may be able to get Flynn giving up the Falcons pick and a future #1, if that.
Ehhhh, doubtful. Flynn has two career starts to the 15 Cassel had at the time.

Also, Flynn's cap number would be ridiculous and would likely hurt them in keeping some other guys like Finley until he's unloaded.

...even IF he's unloaded. The franchise number would be the starting point of the salary with a new team, and it's possible no one would want him for that much, leaving the Packers stuck with a $14 million backup QB.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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I think GB pulls a Patriots and franchises Flynn. Then I think they trade him to the highest bidder. I think Cleveland would rather trade for Flynn than draft another McCoy, Quinn, or Couch. I know it's a new regime than the one that made those picks, but I think if you can get an experienced QB for a similar package than you would a rookie....you go for experience. The Browns may be able to get Flynn giving up the Falcons pick and a future #1, if that.
I hate that idea. I'd rather draft RGIII (if we can get him at #4, not trading up) than trade TWO firsts for Flynn.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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I think Cleveland goes after Matt Flynn, especially since Holmgren isn't afraid to take on QB's to be starters(Hasselbeck part 2?). Holmgren then could go Richardson/Blackmon at 4 then go Miller/Jeffery at 21
That would be his M.O., go for the veteran backup like he did with Hasselbeck.The Walrus has always been pretty consistant about not taking QBs who come out early. I'd also expect Seattle to get in on that Matt Flynn bidding war also.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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I (unfortunately) watched several and...Clausen was a fish out of water on an NFL field. His existence is the only reason why Blaine Gabbert isn't the worst QB I've ever seen.

Colt McCoy isn't THAT bad, but he's got no ceiling. Maybe, MAYBE if you surrounded him with elite talent all over the place, he could be on the level of a post-9000 shoulder surgeries Chad Pennington. Maybe. But that's too much work for not enough payoff.

Go for Griffin. It's easier for a great QB to make the team around him look better than it is to build enough of a cast to support a mediocre QB.
I don't see it; not on this team. The supporting cast (on offense) isn't even mediocre, it's atrocious.

Who is going to block for him? We have essentially swinging saloon doors manning the right side of the OL.

Who will catch the ball? Little is the only guy worth mentioning. We have a decent TE and a good pass catching #2 TE, but we refuse to use them.

Who will run it? Everyone thinks Hillis is gone.

If we trade up to #2 and draft Griffin, it will cost the #22 pick (according to the value chart). So we basically need to sign the entire free agent class to give him any weapons at all. Maybe there's a guy at the top of R2 that could help, but that's not the situation I want to put my new franchise QB in. He's bound to have his career destroyed, a la Tim Couch.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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see it more likely that the Rams just take Kalil now that they have Jeff Fisher, not wanting to leave him to Minnesota at #3 after trading down. Minnesota can then use the #3 pick as the hot spot and still get Morris Claiborne/whoever a few picks later. Cleveland would want to move up, not wanting Washington/Miami to get the pick in front of them, risking being left at the altar.

That is, if the Btrowns really like RG3 that much. And I realize that this benefits my team, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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I don't see it; not on this team. The supporting cast (on offense) isn't even mediocre, it's atrocious.

Who is going to block for him? We have essentially swinging saloon doors manning the right side of the OL.

Who will catch the ball? Little is the only guy worth mentioning. We have a decent TE and a good pass catching #2 TE, but we refuse to use them.

Who will run it? Everyone thinks Hillis is gone.

If we trade up to #2 and draft Griffin, it will cost the #22 pick (according to the value chart). So we basically need to sign the entire free agent class to give him any weapons at all. Maybe there's a guy at the top of R2 that could help, but that's not the situation I want to put my new franchise QB in. He's bound to have his career destroyed, a la Tim Couch.
Plenty of guys enter far worse than that.

You also need to think like a GM. Building a good team is part of it but so is keeping asses in the seats.

If you just stick with such a horrifically boring offense, fan support is going to wane. You need to bring in stars and the Browns currently have...zero?

You're basically make the argument that Falcons fans did when they didn't want Matt Ryan and instead wanted Glenn Dorsey. Or the Lions fans who wanted a LT or...ugh...Aaron Curry...over Stafford. Or the Rams fans who wanted Suh over Bradford.

All are significantly better off. Add a good QB and the rest becomes easier to flesh out.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Ehhhh, doubtful. Flynn has two career starts to the 15 Cassel had at the time.

Also, Flynn's cap number would be ridiculous and would likely hurt them in keeping some other guys like Finley until he's unloaded.

...even IF he's unloaded. The franchise number would be the starting point of the salary with a new team, and it's possible no one would want him for that much, leaving the Packers stuck with a $14 million backup QB.
Not true. Cassel was franchised for 14Mil and only got 6 years for 63Mil, 10Mil per season on average. I don't think they bring Finley back anyway. Don't see them franchising him and if they can get a 1 for Flynn, they can take another TE early.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Not true. Cassel was franchised for 14Mil and only got 6 years for 63Mil, 10Mil per season on average. I don't think they bring Finley back anyway. Don't see them franchising him and if they can get a 1 for Flynn, they can take another TE early.
The franchise money becomes the guaranteed money. Once the player's name is on that contract, it becomes fully guaranteed. So when the new deal is worked out, that is, at minimum, the starting point for the guaranteed total.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I hate that idea. I'd rather draft RGIII (if we can get him at #4, not trading up) than trade TWO firsts for Flynn.
I don't think 2 1st would be what it takes. Just pointing out what Cleveland could do since they have an extra 1st and still have top 5 pick (Blackmon). I think GB would take the Falcons pick and a 3rd.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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The franchise money becomes the guaranteed money. Once the player's name is on that contract, it becomes fully guaranteed. So when the new deal is worked out, that is, at minimum, the starting point for the guaranteed total.
Ok. It's not like he isn't going to get 14Mil guaranteed anyway if he becomes a FA? Cassel got 28Mil guaranteed.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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see it more likely that the Rams just take Kalil now that they have Jeff Fisher, not wanting to leave him to Minnesota at #3 after trading down. Minnesota can then use the #3 pick as the hot spot and still get Morris Claiborne/whoever a few picks later. Cleveland would want to move up, not wanting Washington/Miami to get the pick in front of them, risking being left at the altar.

That is, if the Btrowns really like RG3 that much. And I realize that this benefits my team, so take it with a grain of salt.
I'm kind of seeing it this way also. I think the Rams will want too much for #2 because they want to protect their franchise QB with a franchise LT and other teams would have to pay handsomely to take that away from them. Minny could be in the catbirds seat if there are 3-4 teams below them wanting RGIII badly enough.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I think Matt Flynn plays a large role in the RGIII sweepstakes. If Cleveland signs him then obviously you don't have to jump into the top 4 picks to get Griffin. You'd probably have to jump in front of Washington though, and Washington might want to trade up to secure him (much like people are talking about the Browns doing right now), but how high would be high enough? The Dolphins are the other threat, but of course they'd have to pay the most being farther down in the order.

If Flynn goes to Washington then you'd think that Cleveland would be much more likely to call the Rams/Vikings bluff and let RGIII slide to them without a trade up. Miami would have to give up a boatload to move up into the top 3 picks.

I also look at it like this:

-There are really 3 elite players the Rams could use at the top of the draft: Kalil, Claiborne, and maybe Blackmon.
-Kalil and Claiborne you have to figure at this point are going to be their top 2 targets (I think Claiborne will be considered BPA over Blackmon on most teams' boards).
-If they trade down to #4 then they should get one of those guys.
-If they have to trade down to #6 or #8/9 then they'll have to settle for a 2nd tier guy like Kirkpatrick, Coples, or someone else.

I think the top 5 picks are a lot more valuable in this draft than say picks 6-10 for a lot of teams. There really is Luck/Kalil/Claiborne/Griffin then Blackmon/Kirkpatrick/Coples/Richardson and then a bit of a gap right now it seems. This factor might make the Browns not have to pay so much to trade with the Rams compared to Miami or Washington. Then again someone like Kirkpatrick could really rise and screw this theory up, there's a lot of time between now and late April.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Plenty of guys enter far worse than that.

You also need to think like a GM. Building a good team is part of it but so is keeping asses in the seats.

If you just stick with such a horrifically boring offense, fan support is going to wane. You need to bring in stars and the Browns currently have...zero?

You're basically make the argument that Falcons fans did when they didn't want Matt Ryan and instead wanted Glenn Dorsey. Or the Lions fans who wanted a LT or...ugh...Aaron Curry...over Stafford. Or the Rams fans who wanted Suh over Bradford.

All are significantly better off. Add a good QB and the rest becomes easier to flesh out.
I think Holmgren knows that the best way to keep asses in the seats is by building a winning team. If he and Heckert think RGIII is the best way to do that, I'm OK with it (not that anyone gives a ****), but it better not be to generate some temporary excitement.

And I think it's worth pointing out that all of the QB's you mention have studs to lean on: White and Turner in ATL, Megatron in DET, and Jackson in STL. Again, the Browns don't have any established stars on offense that can take the pressure off of a young QB.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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I think Holmgren knows that the best way to keep asses in the seats is by building a winning team. If he and Heckert think RGIII is the best way to do that, I'm OK with it (not that anyone gives a ****), but it better not be to generate some temporary excitement.

And I think it's worth pointing out that all of the QB's you mention have studs to lean on: White and Turner in ATL, Megatron in DET, and Jackson in STL. Again, the Browns don't have any established stars on offense that can take the pressure off of a young QB.
You're not going to budge on this, fine.

But those guys also didn't have a Joe Thomas or Alex Mack. Protect a QB with elite potential and weapons will emerge.
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Old 01-17-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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You're not going to budge on this, fine.

But those guys also didn't have a Joe Thomas or Alex Mack. Protect a QB with elite potential and weapons will emerge.
LOL, you're not budging either BB :) I'm not going to be mad if it happens like you suggest, I just would rather it not.
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Old 01-17-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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see it more likely that the Rams just take Kalil now that they have Jeff Fisher, not wanting to leave him to Minnesota at #3 after trading down. Minnesota can then use the #3 pick as the hot spot and still get Morris Claiborne/whoever a few picks later. Cleveland would want to move up, not wanting Washington/Miami to get the pick in front of them, risking being left at the altar.

That is, if the Browns really like RG3 that much. And I realize that this benefits my team, so take it with a grain of salt.
The sticking point. Steve Wyche? C'mon. Guy's a tool as an analyst.
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....ask Brandon Weeden.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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I think I'd rather take my lumps with

McCoy, Trent Richardson, Kendall Wright and Little, OR...
McCoy, Lamar Miller, Justin Blackmon and Little

than RGIII, Hardesty, Little, and Massaquoi. I don't see that as wasting the trade down as Savant suggests.
In today's NFL, I don't think any RB prospect is worth taking over any 1st round QB prospect if your teams needs a QB, and the Browns need a QB.

Same for WR except maybe some leniency on the quality of prospect - I don't know if Blackmon is that, though.

For a team lacking much success in recent years, the Browns have ignored taking a QB early way too much. Since 99, they've done it once (in 99) and it's not like they weren't in positions to try it.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Then again someone like Kirkpatrick could really rise and screw this theory up, there's a lot of time between now and late April.
Speaking of screwing up; just read that Dre Kirkpatrick was arrested in Florida for possession of weed.

This clown has some 'splainin' to do now...

Or, maybe he can try the Seargent Schultz defense. "I know nothing!"
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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We have an entire thread on Dre already actually.
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