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Old 01-18-2012, 09:39 AM    (permalink
abaddon41_80
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I don't see anyway this team wins more than 2 or at best 3 games without Eli.
Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.
Have you watched the giants this season? The defense was good for 4 games all season before the playoffs. The OL sucked monkey balls and has just recently gotten mediocre. Jacobs spent almost all season running like a ***** and Bradshaw's been hurt. Yes we have two studly receivers, but they're so studly because they and Eli are finally on the same page with this complicated offense that any other QB would struggle mightily with if thrown into the fray for an injured Eli and because Eli's deep accuracy and command of the offense makes it easy for them to make plays. Plus we haven't been healthy at all this year, still aren't. So sure hypothetically if everyone except for Eli were healthy this team could maybe win 4 games, if Fewell called games the way he has of late all season maybe 5, but if everyone where healthy alongside Eli we wouldn't have gone 9-7 and if Fewell were calling games like this all season on top of that there's a great chance this game is getting played in New York instead of San Francisco.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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Really? The defense is unarguably way better than the Colts, especially now that they are healthy, and there are way more pieces on offense than the Colts have. The Giants have a solid offensive line, two solid to good running backs and two great receivers. I don't see how this healthy Giants team could win less than five or so games without Eli.
1. The defense is hot right now. It was one of the worst in the league throughout the year.

2. The offensive line is garbage. We had the worst rush offense in the league and our pass protection is only serviceable on paper bc of Eli's pocket presence and anticipation skills.

3. Our RBs suck. Bradshaw dances too much behind the LOS and Jacobs is washed up.

Our team is basically a dline who can pass rush, Eli, and 2 very good WRs. Eli won 5 (or 6 I can't remember) games in the final 2 minutes of the game. That's over half our wins.

Without Eli, we'd be lucky to win 3 games this year. We'd be in the Luck sweepstakes.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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Sucks monkey balls to mediocre is still better than the Colts offensive line and, like I said, the defense at its worst is still better than the Colts defense. Same thing again with the backs. Bradshaw and Jacobs are way better than Addai, Brown and Delone Carter.

The receivers are certainly helped by Eli but, come on, have you seen some of the plays they have made this season? In is not even just Cruz and Nicks, Ballard and Manningham have made some fantastic catches and/or runs after the catch this year that have nothing to do with Eli's ability.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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Giants fans are poor mouthing their squad just a little, but I do agree the level they're playing at now isn't the same team that was on the field during the regular season.

This team would have won 12 games this past season.

Unlike year's past where I always felt Eli was just a piece on the NYG, now that squad only achieves what Elijah is able to produce from the QB position.

WHen he's great, the team is awesome.

If he's not carrying the offense's water, there are too many deficiencies IMO for the D to make up the slack.

He's by far the most important player on that team.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Giants fans are poor mouthing their squad just a little, but I do agree the level they're playing at now isn't the same team that was on the field during the regular season.

This team would have won 12 games this past season.

Unlike year's past where I always felt Eli was just a piece on the NYG, now that squad only achieves what Elijah is able to produce from the QB position.

WHen he's great, the team is awesome.

If he's not carrying the offense's water, there are too many deficiencies IMO for the D to make up the slack.

He's by far the most important player on that team.
I agree with all of that. They still would have won four to six games (if healthy) without him, though.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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It's not easy winning 6 games in this league. Especially with a backup qb. If you have a strong run game, you have a chance, but when you rely so much on your qb to score points on offense, especially in the system we run which is probably the most complex route tree in the league, you can't just plug in a qb and get 6 wins out of him.

Our defense at it's peak can keep us in games, but our run game is just not good enough to make up for a backup qb.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Oh and btw, you can give David Carr (our backup qb) the 85 bears, he still wouldn't win 6 games. So yeah...
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Skip Bayless? Is that you?
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Without attacking Eli Manning, who has matured into one of the better quarterbacks in the game, the best way to recognise the gulf in class is the fact that it takes Eli playing the best football of his career and Peyton having a broken neck to get this thread going.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Skip Bayless? Is that you?
Que???????
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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I think the only question that needs to be asked is this,

Is this Giants team without Eli worse than the Colts without Peyton? I don't see how anyone could possibly answer yes.

Edit - I mean in regards to Peyton last year vs. Eli this year

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Old 01-18-2012, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone here is saying Eli is anywhere near Peyton's level. That's foolish. Like I said earlier, Eli is a top 5 qb in the league right now, Peyton is a top 5 qb of all time. Huge difference.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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A simple question deserves a simple answer. No. It isn't even close. Peyton Manning is perhaps the greatest QB of all time; Eli has proven to be elite this season, but that is it.

On the note of Superbowls, Tom Brady is a far better QB now than when he was winning Super Bowls, and Eli is far better now than when he won his Superbowl. A Superbowl is a proof of success for the team, but is far less reliable for any specific player.
yes. just yes. we had a thread about this started by WMDsackmachine i think a while back that pretty much made it clear that saying 'QB A won the super bowl!' is a pile of crap. teams win, not individuals. and its also a huge pet peeve of mine when people do that so props.

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I think a lot of people miss this point.
espn is rotting peoples minds out, thats why they all miss it. they perpetuate the QB won the SB thing instead of the better team won the game.

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2010 Peyton > 2011 Eli. Peyton carried the worst team in the league kicking and screaming to a 10-6 record and set them up for a playoff win. The Giants this year are not a great team by any means but without Eli they would still destroy the Colts without Peyton.
that was one of the worst playoff teams ive ever seen as far as actual talent goes, i think if you stack them up with the 7-9 playoff bound seahawks that year youll find the hawks being equal or better at almost every spot except QB. they were decimated by injuries that year in the year of injuriezzzzzzz. i said at the time, but they were an easy one and out in the playoffs, they just had nothing and no one left. in the playoffs, it becomes about team play and they just had a terrible team that stole a good record.

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1. The defense is hot right now. It was one of the worst in the league throughout the year.

2. The offensive line is garbage. We had the worst rush offense in the league and our pass protection is only serviceable on paper bc of Eli's pocket presence and anticipation skills.

3. Our RBs suck. Bradshaw dances too much behind the LOS and Jacobs is washed up.

Our team is basically a dline who can pass rush, Eli, and 2 very good WRs. Eli won 5 (or 6 I can't remember) games in the final 2 minutes of the game. That's over half our wins.

Without Eli, we'd be lucky to win 3 games this year. We'd be in the Luck sweepstakes.
even as a giants fan, i think the giants w/o eli would be better than the colts w/o peyton. we have some decent peices around the board that we could scrap together and be competitive. cant really say the same for the colts who are really baron talent wise if you think about it. everyone is either old or overrated or andrew luck.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Im curious, if the giants wrs drop as many passes as the packers wrs, or if the giants have as many turnovers as the saints, and they lost.. Do we still have this conversation?
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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That's what you call the turd that exposes the troll post.
Apart from the name calling, tell me when he has lead his team. His number aren't exactly HOF either.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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He's led his team each of the last 3 years. Without him we'd never have been .500 or above.
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Old 01-18-2012, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Apart from the name calling, tell me when he has lead his team. His number aren't exactly HOF either.
What name calling?
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Que???????
The question is so absurd and presentist that I just assumed it was from Skip Bayless.

"Hey a thing happened! That's the greatest thing of all time!"

*five seconds later*

"This thing is stupid and overrated!!"
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Also, to the person that mentioned Eli in the HOF. I suppose he has a chance if he wins a few more rings (Troy Aikman made it on the first ballot after all), but only because people give quarterbacks way too much credit for wins and losses.

Eli is a pretty good quarterback who is having an excellent season.

Career wise?

-He's not even close to the Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, Brees level.
-He's not at Big Ben's level, or even Philip Rivers' for that matter.
-I'd put him on that next level with Jay Culter, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, and Matt Ryan (and, in my opinion, the lesser of all of those)

He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it. He's not terribly efficient and doesn't complete enough long passes to make up for his lack of short-field accuracy. He is, and has always been, extremely overrated because of his name and where he plays.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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He just throws too many picks, and isn't exactly overwhelmingly in any other area to make up for it.
Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Rob Lowe (yes the actor) is reporting that Peyton is going to retire. Not sure how much stock you can put into what Rob Lowe says, but the rumor seems to be getting some traction.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Rob Lowe (yes the actor) is reporting that Peyton is going to retire. Not sure how much stock you can put into what Rob Lowe says, but the rumor seems to be getting some traction.
I LITERALLY cannot trust him as a source. Unless he heard it from a trusted informant within the Pawnee government.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I LITERALLY cannot trust him as a source. Unless he heard it from a trusted informant within the Pawnee government.
Lowe is friends with Irasy. Lowe play a character in Parks & Recreation which is set in Indiana. Lowe stared in St. Elmo's Fire and there is a St. Elmo's Steak House in Indianapolis. Sounds crazy, but so is Jim Irsay.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.
I think career-wise, Eli and Jay are similar. If we're talking about right now then yes, Eli is better (than all of them).

But that's not how I understood the context of the conversation.
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