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Old 01-18-2012, 03:13 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
I think career-wise, Eli and Jay are similar. If we're talking about right now then yes, Eli is better (than all of them).

But that's not how I understood the context of the conversation.
I'm not sure the context either. Cause if it is over their career, this is a stupid thread. If it is for next year and next year going forward alone, then there is a definite conversation.

But I think you are downplaying how good Eli is.
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Old 01-18-2012, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Seems like a fantasy QB argument.
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Old 01-18-2012, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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I think it all depends on what you value in a QB. Eli is different from Rodgers, Peyton and Brees in that he's not the pure passer they are.

However, his strength lies in his ability to take advantage of situational opportunities (a lot of which are in the clutch).

If Eli has a good defense, good offensive line and/or good run game he is as he's shown good enough to win a Superbowl.

I know he's never really been asked to throw it a lot on a consistent basis, but I also don't believe that is his strength either. He lacks accuracy and consistency. With a good team around him though he knows what to do and most importantly how to win games.

He's certainly a franchise QB though and I believe I've underrated his value for a long time.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that when the Giants' defense picked things up at the end of the year the team went on a hot streak (on both sides of the ball). They seem to compliment each other extremely well.
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Old 01-18-2012, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Yet you would put him behind Cutler?

Also, I think he completed more long passes than anyone in the NFL this year. At least top 3. Most of them haven't been because of YAC. That has been a more recent occurrence these last few weeks.
Yeah, that to me was a little absurd, Eli throws it deep as often and as well as anybody in the NFL.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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I think it all depends on what you value in a QB. Eli is different from Rodgers, Peyton and Brees in that he's not the pure passer they are.

However, his strength lies in his ability to take advantage of situational opportunities (a lot of which are in the clutch).

If Eli has a good defense, good offensive line and/or good run game he is as he's shown good enough to win a Superbowl.

I know he's never really been asked to throw it a lot on a consistent basis, but I also don't believe that is his strength either. He lacks accuracy and consistency. With a good team around him though he knows what to do and most importantly how to win games.

He's certainly a franchise QB though and I believe I've underrated his value for a long time.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that when the Giants' defense picked things up at the end of the year the team went on a hot streak (on both sides of the ball). They seem to compliment each other extremely well.
Does this year not count? Eli is being asked to throw it a lot for the first time in his career and he's put up numbers that fall just short of your Brees, Brady and Rodgers', in large part because of how much more run intensive the giants become in the redzone despite the running game being amongst the league's worst.

His D has turned it around over the past month, but before that were absolutely turrible so of course the team got significantly better when the D stopped being so pathetic that the only way for the giants to win was for Eli to score the game winning TD with too little time for the opponent to score. Eli kept this team a float with Nicks and Cruz and now the giants are in the NFC title game despite still having a piss poor running game and mediocre OL. This season is all about what Eli can really do if he got to just sling it the way other elite QBs do, and he's done very well and remained clutch.

What makes Eli stand out is his ability to read and understand defenses where he's reaching Peyton levels, add that to his great pocket presence and deep ball and there's no shortage of ability for Eli to play the way he has whenever given the opportunity. Now he's had a couple bad games this year, but that's bound to happen when literally the whole team is relying on him to win them games for the vast majority of the season.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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career 58.4% completion and 3.3% int ratio.

He is the only quarterback even in this conversation who has both of those numbers and they are damning.

Again, if we're talking about right now that's one thing. But over the course of his career, Eli is not that impressive at all.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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WOah...woah...dang BF....I'm with you on a lot of things but did you really say Rivers > Eli???

I'm sorry but no.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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WOah...woah...dang BF....I'm with you on a lot of things but did you really say Rivers > Eli???

I'm sorry but no.
If you just look at the numbers Eli's clearly inferior to Rivers and Romo.
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-18-2012, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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Eli career compared to Peyton of course not. Eli this year compared to Manning last about the same in regular season. Playoffs much better.

Peyton in 2010

Pct 66.3
Yards 4,700
YPT 6.9
TD 33
INT 17
Rating 91.9

Eli 2011

Pct 61
Yards 4933
Avg 8.4
TD 29
INT 16
Rating 92.9
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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I would take Eli over Peyton all day. I mean unless its a regular season game, but in the playoffs where ledgends are born, Peyton is one of the most dissapointing players in the history of sports.

Peyton Manning is the Wilt Chamberlain of football, or a more modern example, the Lebron James of the NFL. On the surface this guy has it all, he has the accolaids, he has the measurements, the legacy and thepedigree. But when it matters, he turns into a different guy.

Its funny, even in this thread people come out and say Peyton, unless it matters or the playoffs. That should be the standard in which we measure a player..

I have seen people say, well if Manning had a defense, blah blah. That has been gone over multiple times. If you go back and look at Peyton Mannings 19playoff games, there is not alot of shootouts with Manning coming up short. If fact the majority of the time, the defense is the ones who even keep this choke artist in the games. Yes, if you go look back game to game, you can see Peyton Manning is truly the master of panic, and he is the major reason why they often lose.

Even in the Super Bowl, this guy was terrible, he had the one play where Wayne was left wide open because of a Bears secondary mix up and he still won Super Bowl MVP. The most underserving Super Bowl MVP in history. All he had to do was sit on the sidelines and watch Rex Grossman self destruct.

I would take probably 10 maybe even 15 QB's over Peyton Manning all time, just because he is such a mental midget when it matters most.

EDIT: I would also like to add, Peyton was instrumental in stacking the offensive side of the ball. Maybe they would of had a more respectable defense if they didn't use so many first round picks on offensive players, a lot of the time they didn't really need, just to add more weapons.

Also, if you look at Peytons numbers, you can see that toward the end of the career he went from being putrid to actually having good statistical games, but doing something at the end or in crucial times to remind us, he hasn't changed. Even while watching the Super Bowl against the Saints, I had that glimmer of hope, and thought maybe he had turned the corner. But in the back of my mind, his true form would come out. I just had a smirk when he threw the pick six.. Though that was the Peyton I have come to know.

His choking in the NFL was not some new thing, it wasn't an NFL thing, it was a Peyton thing. Even looking at his Bowl games in College, or against Florida(who he never beat) Peyton throughout his career has shown to either be down right bad, or extremely unlclutch in big games.

You have to look at that in the grand scheme of things when summing up his career. Its a pretty glaring flaw.
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Old 01-23-2012, 04:34 AM    (permalink
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I'd say his postseason success has moved above Peyton's. He's gotten to two Super Bowls now in more impressive fashions and might just win another.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.
Well that's just not true. Plenty of guys play for the money, many others play because they like making a career out of a game.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Pro football players play for 1 reason, to win SuperBowls, nothing else really matters to them.
Eli like his brother Peyton has won one and now has a shot to win his second, if he does it, he passes his brother's accomplishments and moves above him in the pecking order of QB's. If he doesn't they remain equal.
This is absolutely, 100% wrong. Just plain ******* stupid, moronic, and ignorant.

Measuring a QB by the amount of Super Bowl rings they have is absolutely not the appropriate manner to go into it. There are about 9874589374598347598 variables that go into determining whether a QB makes the SB or not. If Billy Cundiff makes that kick yesterday and the Ravens beat the Pats in overtime and go on to win the SB, is Joe Flacco going to be a better QB then Phillip Rivers because he has a ring and Rivers doesn't? Is Trent Dilfer a better QB then Dan Marino because he has a SB ring and Marino doesn't? Get the **** out of here with that stupid ********. Of course it's nice when a player gets a SB ring as a crowning career achievement, and of course you factor in the ability to perform in the clutch as something you want in a QB, but saying that Eli is better then Peyton because he has 2 SBs to Manning's 1 is absolutely ******* moronic and it's just another example of why you're one of the worst posters on these boards.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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This is absolutely, 100% wrong. Just plain ******* stupid, moronic, and ignorant.

Measuring a QB by the amount of Super Bowl rings they have is absolutely not the appropriate manner to go into it. There are about 9874589374598347598 variables that go into determining whether a QB makes the SB or not. If Billy Cundiff makes that kick yesterday and the Ravens beat the Pats in overtime and go on to win the SB, is Joe Flacco going to be a better QB then Phillip Rivers because he has a ring and Rivers doesn't? Is Trent Dilfer a better QB then Dan Marino because he has a SB ring and Marino doesn't? Get the **** out of here with that stupid ********. Of course it's nice when a player gets a SB ring as a crowning career achievement, and of course you factor in the ability to perform in the clutch as something you want in a QB, but saying that Eli is better then Peyton because he has 2 SBs to Manning's 1 is absolutely ******* moronic and it's just another example of why you're one of the worst posters on these boards.
I know, youy hate the fact that Cameron called a perfect game as your OC and will likely remain as your team's OC when you hate him so much. Too bad I called you out on that one and you just cannot stand not being perfect.
I'll put you on my ignore list since your anger has got the best of you and let you swim in your puddle of hate by yourself.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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I know, youy hate the fact that Cameron called a perfect game as your OC and will likely remain as your team's OC when you hate him so much. Too bad I called you out on that one and you just cannot stand not being perfect.
I'll put you on my ignore list since your anger has got the best of you and let you swim in your puddle of hate by yourself.
How is this any sort of retort to the statement I made proving that he's a ******* idiot?
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:23 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Well that's just not true. Plenty of guys play for the money, many others play because they like making a career out of a game.
Neither means they don't want to win Super Bowls, I'd bet money that you couldn't find one who wouldn't give their all for one.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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No, i fully agree with what APS said. The point you made is ******* stupid. Trent Dilfer/Brad Johnson >>>> Dan Marino. Obviously.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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yeah, you can't judge based on just super bowls. they help and are a big factor, but they're not the end all be all. Eli's career isn't close to the numbers peyton's put up. bf51 is selling eli super short, while people comparing his career to peyton's are selling him too high. As of now, yeah, I'd put him a top 5 QB in the league (while peyton could be top 5 all time), who, if he wins this super bowl and continues this play for another 3-5 years, has a good shot at making the hall of fame. He's progressed this year, and really has the last few years.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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Neither means they don't want to win Super Bowls, I'd bet money that you couldn't find one who wouldn't give their all for one.
Have we already forgotten Donovan McNabb caring so much about winning the superbowl that he was so hungover that he needed to throw up on the sidelines? Come on now, sure no one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning as much and even if they did using titles as the sole means of comparing QBs is moronic.

I love Eli, wouldn't trade him for any other QB in the NFL, but his career won't stack up with Peyton's unless he gets 3 rings and can make this seasons performance the mean performance for the next 5.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Eli's been awesome this year, but no.

If he takes the year he had this year, and repeats it until the end of his career... then MAYBE.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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Peyton is still one of the best all time.

People rip him to hard for his "poor playoff performances" most of his performances have been pretty damn good and the team as a whole has sucked (breaking news, I know)

People want to say that he was throwing to pro bowlers most of his career... blah blah blah... Neither Harrison nor Wayne would be pro bowlers if it wasn't for Manning. There is a reason Harrison didn't make a pro bowl or have a 1,000 yard season until after Manning got there and then his stats jump exponentially during the 99 season.

His defense has pretty much always sucked and was built around his ability to get a lead and maintain it. The D would look much worse than it did if it wasn't for Manning getting them the lead.

With the exception of Edge they haven't really had much of a run game either.

Eli has had absolutely better defenses and running games (for the most part) most of his career. This isn't to knock him but these are facts.

I like Eli and he certainly is coming into his own in this league but this thread is a ******* joke
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Have we already forgotten Donovan McNabb caring so much about winning the superbowl that he was so hungover that he needed to throw up on the sidelines? Come on now, sure no one doesn't want to win the Super Bowl but clearly not all players care about winning as much and even if they did using titles as the sole means of comparing QBs is moronic.

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Players bring up on the sidelines and in the dressing room all the time, it doesn't mean they are hungover, just means their nerves got the best of them before a big game.
I have never heard a veteran player say either while still playing or after he retired that he didn't wish for a Super Bowl ring if he didn't have one. You find me 1 quote from a player still playing or retired who hasn't won a Super Bowl, that he doesn't regret it and I'll eat humble pie.
I love Eli, wouldn't trade him for any other QB in the NFL, but his career won't stack up with Peyton's unless he gets 3 rings and can make this seasons performance the mean performance for the next 5.
I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree, we are talking about 2 potential HOF QB's and SB rings is what they play for and IF Eli passes Peyton, he is the winner in my books even if you disagree. Peyton has very pretty stats, perhaps the best of all time, but his playoff record is rather mediocre and I don't buy the story that he played on inferior teams. Remember, Eli is still young and could win 2 or 3 Super Bowls or even more.

Now, I'm not comparing Dilfer to a HOF QB and those who make that argument don't fully grasp what I'm saying, I'm comparing HOF QB's to other HOF QB's not once in a career types when I establish, my list of top QB's.
When quarterbacking becomes an individual sport then we can start pointing towards Super Bowl rings. But its not and it never will be. Its not like winning Grand Slams in tennis or Majors in golf where you can compare A's achievements to B's.

There are so many factors, variables and lucky/unlucky breaks that go into winning and losing a football game that are totally beyond the control of what a QB does. If Scott Norwood makes his FG in SB 25 does that make Jim Kelly a better QB, even when he had as much influence over whether that kick went through the uprights as Whitney Houston?

Bradshaw and Aikman are both HOF quarterbacks. They have 7 rings between them. Where would you rank them among the all-time greats?
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