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Old 02-08-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
DraftSavant
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Originally Posted by richardriderNF View Post
I remember viewing this board around this time last year and nine out of 10 of the members listed stated Cam Newton was going to be a bust, Newton was going to need time to develop, Cam Newton should switch positions, Cam Newton will be drafted in the late to early second round, very immature and inaccurate. Gabbert is going to be the best QB in this class and should be the first QB taken. I too was shocked when they announced that Carolina was going to use the number 1 pick on Cam early in April, because at the time most of you thought he would be a late 1st rounder or even a second rounder.

Boy all of you were so wrong. Now all I hear is Cam Newton is a once in a 10 year type of QB, franchise QB, excellent tools, everything you want in a QB. Obviously there scouts saw something that we did not.

Being new to this board, how serious should I take any of your analysis of players in the draft since practically every single one of you in this board was completely wrong about your analysis of Cam Newton around this time last year?
There were, like, two people who liked Gabbert here, bro. He's quite possibly the most hated prospect in the history of this site.

So many varying opinions on QBs, there's hardly ever a consensus here.
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Is this guy having a conversation with himself?
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Old 02-08-2012, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Nice try, Cam Newton.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by KLima878 View Post
it's funny how quick people are to judge a QB after one year. Everyone knew Gabbert is raw and needed time. Due to patch management/coaching by Jack Del Rio he was thrown into a situation way ver his head. He had zero help at WR and a very bad passing scheme by the Jags. He progressed a little towards the end of the season and with a better offensive scheme and some weapons around him he may become a franchise type QB. It's way to early for any of thesed QB's to be judged.
I agree it's too early to judge an of these QBs and i have always thought they shouldnt even play their first year, but that's a differant subject.

I am willing to wait on Gabbert but his presence in the pocket is a flaw that is almost hard to see changing. Locker needs work in the pocket too but for him it's the opposite of Gabbert, he thinks he's too tough to care.
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Old 02-08-2012, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by richardriderNF View Post
Obviously there scouts saw something that we did not.

Being new to this board, how serious should I take any of your analysis of players in the draft since practically every single one of you in this board was completely wrong about your analysis of Cam Newton around this time last year?
Really no **** genius, of course scouts saw more than most of the people on these forums, otherwise we would all be professional scouts.

But hey the majority of people on here who didn't like Cam Newton were proven wrong for one year. But let's not put the guy in Canton yet.

Oh, by the way. Have you ever heard of Ryan Leaf? Vernon Gholston? Jamarcus Russell? I'm pretty sure that professional scouts liked them enough to draft in the top ten. How did they do?
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Correct answer:
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Obvious troll is obvious.

His name is dickrider. Come on.
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We're all always wrong and you should probably leave now before you catch stupid from us.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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-5 awareness for everyone
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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-5 awareness for everyone
I totally get +10 awareness and +5 handsomeness.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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I totally get +10 awareness and +5 handsomeness.
The +5 handsomeness must be the total once we factor in the +10 for the Brady Avatar.



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Old 02-08-2012, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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There were, like, two people who liked Gabbert here, bro. He's quite possibly the most hated prospect in the history of this site.

So many varying opinions on QBs, there's hardly ever a consensus here.
There was a small group of Gabbert fans. All of the QB's had a small group of supporters on this site. Most didn't like last year's QB class besides their guy. I think Christian Ponder was the only guy that didn't have a small group supporting him, if I remember right.

Edit: No one hated Christian Ponder but no one was saying he would be the best QB of that QB class.
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Old 02-08-2012, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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I supported Christian ponder! My #3 QB from last year!
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Comin in hot with his first post...
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Comin in hot with his first post...
Can only go up from here.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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I was a really early and ardent Cam Newton fan, and I remember that while the Newton threads were really controversial and people had strong opinions, there were quite a few people who firmly supported Newton throughout the process, and while probably a minority, it was probably more like a 40/60 split on Newton, with probably half or so of the non-Newton folks conceding that he had all the ability, but didn't like his personality or thought he was going to attract trouble. Which, frankly, remains to seen; after all, it's only been a year. Who knows if a year from now he's holding out, demanding a new contract, or whatever... every one of those folks is going to come out of the woodwork saying, "I told you so! Glad my team didn't pick him... Not worth the trouble."

And as for Gabbert, while there were some people who thought he should go number one overall, those people tended to be trolls, and most of the best posters here really hated him. Not to call myself a "best poster," but I was in that group as well, and I tend to have a pretty good idea of where I stand in an argument, and it may well have been a majority that saw Gabbert as a bust. So, basically, the OP is a just a ****-stirrer who probably either lives in Newark or Omaha and doesn't have anything better to do than create accounts to poke sticks at people.
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Comin in hot with his first post...
Hahaha.

Two questions though, with so many people being wrong about Cam last year, how is it affecting how they're grading RG3 this year? The record breaking success of a dual threat spread guy-is it a new trend or was Newton just special?
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Old 02-08-2012, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha.

Two questions though, with so many people being wrong about Cam last year, how is it affecting how they're grading RG3 this year? The record breaking success of a dual threat spread guy-is it a new trend or was Newton just special?
Well beyond the fact that they're both mobile QBs, Newton and RGIII aren't really all that similar. RGIII is a much, much more polished passer as far as accuracy and touch are concerned. Newton has a rifle for an arm, but he never really mastered the short-mid range passing game in college. That's generally tied to footwork, and Newton's tended to degrade the longer a play went on. RGIII doesn't really have the same limitations Newton had as a passer, but he also isn't the same physical presence on the field either. He's a very different type of athlete, especially as a runner. Much less physical and much more comfortable in the pocket.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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To add on to what I said earlier...

I still believe strongly that Jake Locker and Andy Dalton will end up having better careers than Cam.

I had it:

1) Jake Locker
2) Andy Dalton
3) Cam Newton

^^^ All First Round Talents

4) Ryan Mallett
5) Colin Kaepernick
6) Blaine Gabbert
7) Greg McElroy
8) Christian Ponder
9) Ricky Stanzi
10) T.J. Yates
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Well beyond the fact that they're both mobile QBs, Newton and RGIII aren't really all that similar. RGIII is a much, much more polished passer as far as accuracy and touch are concerned. Newton has a rifle for an arm, but he never really mastered the short-mid range passing game in college. That's generally tied to footwork, and Newton's tended to degrade the longer a play went on. RGIII doesn't really have the same limitations Newton had as a passer, but he also isn't the same physical presence on the field either. He's a very different type of athlete, especially as a runner. Much less physical and much more comfortable in the pocket.
I'm not quite with you there. I think Griffin's footwork is a sticking point. He's just an awkward guy in an out of the pocket. He's more polished because he ran a prolific passing offense but I liked Newton's mechanics a lot more. They're clearly different prospects but both are the dual threat spread types that up until last year, weren't thought of too highly as guys that could transition to elite QBs in the pros. Imo there's no question that RG3's stock is being boosted by Newton's phenomenal success.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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I'm not quite with you there. I think Griffin's footwork is a sticking point. He's just an awkward guy in an out of the pocket. He's more polished because he ran a prolific passing offense but I liked Newton's mechanics a lot more. They're clearly different prospects but there's no question that RG3's stock is being boosted by Newton's phenomenal success.
You're very entitled to your opinion, and I imagine it's probably valid. When I turn on the tape of RGIII at Baylor, I see an athletic QB, not an athlete playing QB. Big difference from what I saw with Newton as a prospect (And hell, what I saw from Newton at times this year in the NFL. It does a hell of a lot for a player to just be bigger, stronger and faster then everyone). Just watch the way RGIII surveys the field compared to the way Newton did it last year. It's a very different process, and one that you can see mechanizing when you watch them. For all the fuss made about both systems, Newton really was a one read/go kind of player in college. RGIII is much more adept at processing the defense, making appropriate reads, and reacting accordingly if the play breaks down. Not to mention, the kid can throw the ball on an absolute rope when he wants to. He made some throws at Baylor this year that were absolutely astounding. Not that Newton didn't, but I see an understanding in RGIII that wasn't there with Newton. No denying the physical tools of either though...RGIII is squeaky clean off the field though, something Newton certainly wasn't.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I'm not quite with you there. I think Griffin's footwork is a sticking point. He's just an awkward guy in an out of the pocket. He's more polished because he ran a prolific passing offense but I liked Newton's mechanics a lot more. They're clearly different prospects but there's no question that RG3's stock is being boosted by Newton's phenomenal success.
Mehh, its just the revelation of the mobile qb again. Remember when McNabb, Alki Smith, Culpepper came out. They were going to change the qb position, did it help out Mike Vick? Maybe, but he was a great athlete on his own. Then teams realized well its nice to have a mobile qb, but get more done with him throwing like 50 yards and he is in less danger.

It'll be a cool thing to have a mobile qb for a bit, then everyone will go back to usual.

Rather have a qb who is mobile in the pocket. And I don't think Cam's success has helped out RG3 all that much. He has his own hype before the knee injury. People forgot and then he reminded them of who he was.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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There were, like, two people who liked Gabbert here, bro. He's quite possibly the most hated prospect in the history of this site.

So many varying opinions on QBs, there's hardly ever a consensus here.
I liked Gabbert and still like Gabbert somewhat (although I was more on irc at the time so not sure if I said it here). I also liked Newton enough and had him in the first round last fall. I admittedly preferred Gabbert ever so slightly to Newton.

Give me a good HC/OC/QB group that gets some weapons around Gabbert before I judge. They rushed him in there (as much as I liked Gabbert, I'm fairly sure I said on irc that I thought the Jags made a good move ... only if they give him time to develop). That said, I'm not sure Mularkey is said guy.

That said, Newton was always a bit under-rated last year, and it took people a long time to move him solidly into the first.

As for RG3/Newton, I do think RG3 is a lot more developed in his passing IQ than Newton was last year. Whether or not RG3's mechanical issues (throwing and footwork) is a byproduct of playing at Baylor and running around a bit or a more serious issue is the debate. I'm not real sure that RG3 is getting boosted by Newton as much as that he has simply developed quite a bit in this past year in terms of his field vision and recognition.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Not sure if this would changes any opinions or not but edited this.

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EDIT-They're clearly different prospects but both are the dual threat spread types that up until last year, weren't thought of too highly as guys that could transition to elite QBs in the pros.
NFL is a copycat league. How can Newton's success not affect the next highly rated dual threat guy?
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Hahaha.

Two questions though, with so many people being wrong about Cam last year, how is it affecting how they're grading RG3 this year? The record breaking success of a dual threat spread guy-is it a new trend or was Newton just special?
I'm not going to go as far to say that people are pushing Griffin's stock because of Newton, but there is a part of me that can't help but think some people who were wrong about Newton last year don't want to miss on the next dual-threat NFL QB. For what it's worth, I don't like Griffin nearly as much as I liked Newton last year. I saw (see) running ability as a complementary trait for even the most mobile NFL QBs, with Newton representing the high end of what that can offer. He had a phenomenal season running the ball, but it was his passing on top of that that made his rookie year so special. It wouldn't have surprised anyone to see the same rushing totals along side passing number more along 50%, 2000 yards 12TDs, 15 INTs. And that would have been a good rookie season, but wouldn't have quieted the doubters nearly as much. That's what his supporters probably conservatively anticipated. But I think when people are looking at them, they're saying, "Well, look at how prolific a passer Griffin was in addition to his running - Newton was a runner first, and look how well he's transitioned." But they're just not the same player. Despite having far fewer throws to grade than Griffin, when I watched him pass I saw an NFL QB. Not nearly as many throws as Griffin, but when you watched Newton you saw a huge guy who was a phenomenal athlete and jsut never looked scared or uncomfortable because of that size and athleticism; he has the confidence in himself that makes him just keep playing through plays like he can always come out of it positively - and frequently did. That was the big attraction for me. Terrific runner, big arm, and when pressured had the ability to play through it and succeed. Griffin's got a nice arm, but the size is a huge difference between him and Newton and what it allows them to do. Just because he put up huge yards throwing crossing routes and bombs to the best deep threat in college football doesn't mean Griffin is a better passer. Who was Newton throwing to? Darvin Adams? That and the whole Big 12 vs. SEC defenses angle. I was totally fine with Newton being taken number one overall, but Griffin is a guy who I would let fall to me if I were to take him. He's got some nice traits, but Newton was an elite prospect to me, and Griffin is in that second tier of guys who look like they could be good, but I'm not ransoming a draft to get him.

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Well beyond the fact that they're both mobile QBs, Newton and RGIII aren't really all that similar. RGIII is a much, much more polished passer as far as accuracy and touch are concerned. Newton has a rifle for an arm, but he never really mastered the short-mid range passing game in college. That's generally tied to footwork, and Newton's tended to degrade the longer a play went on. RGIII doesn't really have the same limitations Newton had as a passer, but he also isn't the same physical presence on the field either. He's a very different type of athlete, especially as a runner. Much less physical and much more comfortable in the pocket.
I agree with about half of that. I wouldn't say Griffin looks any more comfortable in the pocket. If a play is breaking down and the QB is having to scramble either to throw or run, I'm taking Newton every time. Griffin can appear a little skittish at times. And I don't mean to say he looks like he's afraid of getting hit, but almost like he's such a good athlete he can't decide what to do; he starts looking at the rushers and trying to evade each one, instead of just juking the closest guy and either taking off down the field or getting rid of the ball. Getting pressure on Griffin sometimes turns into a game of tackle tag, in other words. I think Newton keeps his eyes downfield better; Griffin's just got way more throws on his resume and looks like a better passer on paper; you see the differences on individual plays if not the entirety of their careers. I didn't really see that kind of stuff with Newton; one of the things I remember liking about him was actually his awareness, and that's something I kinda want to knock Griffin for. Griffin might have a bit more touch to his passes, but I don't think it's a huge difference. If Newton had played in that Baylor offense, he would have put up huuuuuuge numbers.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Really want to add a couple more comments -

A) No one loved Gabbert. He was, by some, viewed as the best of a mediocre lot.

B) Guys succeeding in the pros do not mean that the reports on them out of college were wrong necessarily. Now, I liked Newton (and I even liked Tebow a bit coming out, besides his awful mechanics ... heck, I think old posters here know that a QB I really really liked, in terms of football IQ, was Bruce Gradkowski, but he just had no tools to work with (but hey, I was proven right and Gradkowski did start in the NFL some ... more out of default though).

Scouting is always subjective. Ask any scout and they'll fully acknowledge that. Furthermore, guys have to go to the right system, or, in Newton's case, have a coach willing to tailor their system to him (and that happened for Peyton as well, so that isn't a knock on Newton). The knocks against him weren't wrong - he came from a system that made it hard to discern whether or not he had good field vision, understood 1/5, understood hi/lo, etceteras. It wasn't unfair to criticize him on account of that, as drafting that high, even under the new rules, is still as much about a combination of ceiling and floor than it is simply a look at who has the highest pure ceiling.

C) A random comment on RG3 - I think he's a kid that could step in next year, provided he can stay healthy. I really do think that. Now, doesn't mean I think he's going to put up an awesome season, but I think he could survive. But let's not put Dalton like expectations on QB's ever in their first year - a rookie QB leading a team to a solid record is, more often than not, the exception and not the rule. The right situation, and you never know, but no one, including Luck, should be expected to lead their team to the playoffs right off the bat.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Not sure if this would changes any opinions or not but edited this.



NFL is a copycat league. How can Newton's success not affect the next highly rated dual threat guy?

I probably wasn't clear. I was speaking more to the fact that I think his overall development is boosting his rise as much as anything to do with Newton. Newton doesn't hurt, but RG3's overall development as a passer is, IMO, the key reason behind his rise and not some sort of desire to throw a running QB back there.
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