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Old 03-04-2012, 04:24 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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I'll sum up your argument in a couple words then. "I don't care about any impartial measure of player evaluation."

You throw out every single statistical measure except sacks. He's a strongside OLB. Look at the numbers above, check PFF, and realize Spencer is absolutely one of the best strongside OLBs in the league. I understand you dislike the guy but cmon you are asking a strong-side OLB to get 10+ sacks which doesn't happen. You have a primary pass-rusher and a guy across that is reasonable and able to prevent teams from rolling out/running every down away from your "money guy".
To be fair, I hate PFF. I think that site is a joke.

You know who Spencer is? Mathias Kiwanuka. A good player yes. A solid player that does everything good, but nothing great.

When Kiwi's contract comes up, do I want to re-sign him? No. Not unless it's dirt cheap. Bc he's not worth good money bc so far in his career, he's been a mediocre pass rusher.

This is about budgeting your money. Giving out bad contracts to guys who are "good enough" is a bad way to manage your cap. It'll bite you in the butt when you lose the ability to re-sign a great player later on bc you have money tied to a good enough player.

Spencer's demand on the open market should tell you what league offices think about him. He's not exactly on top of everyone's radar. I said he's not a great pass rusher, and you countered with "he makes tackles"

I guess it depends on what you're looking for. I want my guys on the edges to rush the passer. So to me, he's not a great player.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:40 PM    (permalink
CDCB14
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I'm going to be honest with you....I really don't care about tackles. Tackle #s are an incredibly unreliable statistic, and him getting a bunch of tackles doesn't shock me at all, considering teams generally run to the strong side, and away from Ware. So yeah, you're going to get tackles. Big deal.

My critique of Spencer is strictly from an eyeball evaluation. He's just not that good.

If he was as good as you're implying, you wouldn't have so much controversy about re-signing him. It would be readily apparent that he's a good player worth re-signing. That's hardly the case.

I mean come on, look at your own stat sheet. It has Clark Hagan on there. You're telling me Clark Hagan isn't anything more than awful? Clark Hagan sucks.

The guy has been in the league for 4 years and hasn't had a season with more than 6 sacks. Come on! Let's be real here. That's not a great player. That's an average one.

He's a pass rusher. His job is to rush the passer. He's not great at it. You can find a lot of guys who can set the edge in the run game, and get hurries in the pass game opposite of Ware for a lot cheaper. If you're gonna pay a guy, he better be a guy who can get some sacks.

Hurries are becoming an overrated statistic. Hurries are nice and all, but you know what a hurry is? A hurry means "he almost made a nice play"

Well almost isn't good enough. You gotta finish as a pass rusher.
Ok, and using the eyeball test 70% of the Giants roster is garbage by NFL standards, but you guys just won the Super Bowl. I know you had the most divine intervention/luck in the history of professional sports, but something has to give.

Of the Giants 53 man roster, Spencer is a pound for pound better football player than at least 25 of them. Yet you guys just won the super bowl. I know the Cowboys find a way to have ridicuously bad luck and the Giants are loved by the football gods for reasons unknown, but Spencer is not the problem.

And please, don't even give me that "all in" or leadership crap. Every team is the same. They are pro athletes making millions of dollars to play a game. Leadership? What a laugh. /rant

I really think you are evaluating him the wrong way. How many teams in the history of the league won a super bowl with 12+ sack guys on both sides? I bet it's less than half the super bowl winners. Spencer isn't the problem. It's the down 3, the ILB's until Sean Lee emerged and hopefully Bruce Carter, and the duct tape and chewing gum we have been using to hold the secondary together for the past 10 years.

Spencer is the least of the problems. People just want to blame him because he isn't DeMarcus Ware. He's a fine player. Franchise tag? Hell no, but you can win consistently with him.

EDIT: As for hurries, you Giants fans must love that stat. Whenever Eli gets hurried he chucks a ball downfield off of his back foot that floats for 15 seconds and should be picked off about 4 times, but the football gods place it right into one of your receivers hands 40 yards downfield at crucial moments in a game. I respect Eli and think he's a hell of a quarterback, but it's almost to the point where he heaves it up and you know it's going to be a big gain because of pure luck. You guys must love hurries..

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Ok, and using the eyeball test 70% of the Giants roster is garbage by NFL standards, but you guys just won the Super Bowl. I know you had the most divine intervention/luck in the history of professional sports, but something has to give.

Of the Giants 53 man roster, Spencer is a pound for pound better football player than at least 25 of them. Yet you guys just won the super bowl. I know the Cowboys find a way to have ridicuously bad luck and the Giants are loved by the football gods for reasons unknown, but Spencer is not the problem.

And please, don't even give me that "all in" or leadership crap. Every team is the same. They are pro athletes making millions of dollars to play a game. Leadership? What a laugh. /rant

I really think you are evaluating him the wrong way. How many teams in the history of the league won a super bowl with 12+ sack guys on both sides? I bet it's less than half the super bowl winners. Spencer isn't the problem. It's the down 3, the ILB's until Sean Lee emerged and hopefully Bruce Carter, and the duct tape and chewing gum we have been using to hold the secondary together for the past 10 years.

Spencer is the least of the problems. People just want to blame him because he isn't DeMarcus Ware. He's a fine player. Franchise tag? Hell no, but you can win consistently with him.


Come on man....come on...

Spencer is a decent player. But let's not make him out to be more than he is.

I'm not here to talk about the Giants. We'll agree to disagree on the Giants, but they have no bearing on this discussion.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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[img]http://babyboomerme.com/wp-content/g...sterically.gif[/img]

Come on man....come on...

Spencer is a decent player. But let's not make him out to be more than he is.

I'm not here to talk about the Giants. We'll agree to disagree on the Giants, but they have no bearing on this discussion.
You are correct, just had to go off on a little rant about how lucky the Giants got because I don't think I have on this board.

But, I will stand by my statement that he is better than at least half your roster. He'd be the best linebacker, that's for sure. Don't even give me Jacquan Williams. I am a Boston College fan who loved Kiwanuka, but Spencer is a better player than he is.

You are right about that not mattering though. All I am saying is, Spencer is good enough to win with. He sets the edge and is a good enough pass rusher if we get better along the DL. Our ILB's have never been anything but average but hopefully that has changed, and our secondary has been a joke for a while but hopefully that is being fixed. Then we will see if I'm right about Spencer.

So, forget who they would be playing alongside, you'd rather have Brooks than Spencer?

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Old 03-04-2012, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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You are correct, just had to go off on a little rant about how lucky the Giants got because I don't think I have on this board.

But, I will stand by my statement that he is better than at least half your roster. He'd be the best linebacker, that's for sure. Don't even give me Jacquan Williams. I am a Boston College fan who loved Kiwanuka, but Spencer is a better player than he is.

You are right about that not mattering though. All I am saying is, Spencer is good enough to win with. He sets the edge and is a good enough pass rusher we got better along the DL. Our ILB's have never been anything but average but hopefully that has changed, and our secondary has been a joke for a while but hopefully that is being fixed. Then we will see if I'm right about Spencer.

So, forget who they would be playing alongside, you'd rather have Brooks than Spencer?
It's all good. You've been pretty good lately. I was actually expecting a rant from you awhile ago bc of all the Giants fans you know in CT. You get a pass for it.

I think Brooks and Spencer are the same player. And fwiw, I think SF made a mistake with that contract as well.

Let's leave the Giants out of this. No need to go down that path. It doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.
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Old 03-04-2012, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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It's all good. You've been pretty good lately. I was actually expecting a rant from you awhile ago bc of all the Giants fans you know in CT. You get a pass for it.

I think Brooks and Spencer are the same player. And fwiw, I think SF made a mistake with that contract as well.

Let's leave the Giants out of this. No need to go down that path. It doesn't have anything to do with the discussion.
I go to college in CT too and there are a lot of kids from New Jersey who know nothing about football and were being completely obnoxious. Trust me, it was pretty rough. But hey, I'd rather have the Giants get super lucky again than watch Belichick and Brady holding another Lombardi Trophy. Nothing is better than listening to the Patriots radio announcer on NFL Films after they loss.

Anyway, let's say the Cowboys franchise Spencer, stay in the 3-4 and leave Ratliff at NT, and don't sign Mario Williams. Terrible situation, but it's probably going to happen. What would you do to improve the defense? Secondary by default? Try to get a pass rushing 5 tech in the 1st round?

Also, would you re-sign Laurent Robinson knowing it prevents you from getting an impact free agent at another position like a Michael Griffin at safety, or would you let him walk and hope you find another Laurent Robinson?

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Old 03-04-2012, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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How come nobody speaks about how bad Spencer is in coverage? 15 completions made out of the 19 times he was targeted.

At the same time... bbd, Spencer does get a nice amount of pressures even though he doesn't always come up with sacks.
It's a lot different for linebackers and slot guys to cover because it's easier to complete passes on the inside. Most of the time Spencer and Ware are going to cover routes that are high percentage passes such as flats, short curls, and screens. If they do their job well they wouldn't be shutting guys out from catching passes, but rather they would be keeping catches to 1-3 yard gain that could be broken open for worse.

It's also why Scandrick has a pretty high completion rate. A lot of times he's covering guys catching easy completions like slants, so he wouldn't have the same number as corners playing on the outside or deep.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Looks like franchising Spencer is imminent. I just wish they would do it already so I can accept it and get over it lol.

This organization always waits till the last minute. I bet you the news won't break until 2:55 tomorrow because the deadline is 3 o'clock.
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Old 03-04-2012, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Bad news:

Quote:
Steve Dennis sits down with Keith Brooking coming up at 10:30 on The Score on CBS 11....Cowboys UFA LB says team says they want him back
A tweet from Bill Jones, Mickey's old partner on "Talkin' Cowboys."

I don't get it. This is why we lose. Just draft some dude in the 7th round who can actually run and isn't two years away from senior citizen eligibility.. Don't give me that leadership garbage. No one follows Brooking. He isn't even a career Cowboy and can't play.

I don't care if he's just a 1st or 2nd down player. You better believe teams are going to pass on those downs and go right at him. You don't think Eli Manning is going to audible and throw it right at Keith Brooking every time he's on the field?

I don't understand this organization. Know when it's time to cut bait. This team is just too in denial. I really hope Garrett says no to this. Rob Ryan's hot headed *** probably thinks he can win with anyone so says "yeah sure bring Brooking back." I'd love to be a Redskins, Giants, or Eagles fan right now knowing they don't need to worry about the Cowboys until this garbage stops. I really really hope he's lying. I'll take an undrafted free agent from the NAIA over Keith Brooking. Come on.

Stephen Jones and Jason Garrett need to take over this team. It has passed Jerry by.

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Old 03-04-2012, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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It's a lot different for linebackers and slot guys to cover because it's easier to complete passes on the inside. Most of the time Spencer and Ware are going to cover routes that are high percentage passes such as flats, short curls, and screens. If they do their job well they wouldn't be shutting guys out from catching passes, but rather they would be keeping catches to 1-3 yard gain that could be broken open for worse.

It's also why Scandrick has a pretty high completion rate. A lot of times he's covering guys catching easy completions like slants, so he wouldn't have the same number as corners playing on the outside or deep.
That's a good point. But even based on a curve it's not a good number.

Especially Scandrick. Out of 109 cornerbacks, Scandrick was 96th in comp % against him. Being a slot can be blamed for some of that but not to that extreme. I've said this before, but I think he's much better off on the outside (with zone help) than he is in the slot. We need a MAJOR upgrade there.
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Old 03-04-2012, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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Bad news:



A tweet from Bill Jones, Mickey's old partner on "Talkin' Cowboys."

I don't get it. This is why we lose. Just draft some dude in the 7th round who can actually run and isn't two years away from senior citizen eligibility.. Don't give me that leadership garbage. No one follows Brooking. He isn't even a career Cowboy and can't play.

I don't care if he's just a 1st or 2nd down player. You better believe teams are going to pass on those downs and go right at him. You don't think Eli Manning is going to audible and throw it right at Keith Brooking every time he's on the field?

I don't understand this organization. Know when it's time to cut bait. This team is just too in denial. I really hope Garrett says no to this. Rob Ryan's hot headed *** probably thinks he can win with anyone so says "yeah sure bring Brooking back." I'd love to be a Redskins, Giants, or Eagles fan right now knowing they don't need to worry about the Cowboys until this garbage stops. I really really hope he's lying. I'll take an undrafted free agent from the NAIA over Keith Brooking. Come on.

Stephen Jones and Jason Garrett need to take over this team. It has passed Jerry by.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Arian Foster got a 5yr deal, so the franchise tag is open for Mario. I don't see them putting it on him because it will cost them over $20mi.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Cowboys need to hurry up and tell us whether they are going to franchise Spencer or not because it's holding up my mock draft. LOLz.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Cowboys need to hurry up and tell us whether they are going to franchise Spencer or not because it's holding up my mock draft. LOLz.
They're probably trying to work out a reasonable long term deal, but I doubt Spencer and his agent accept it. Why would they? Just take the guaranteed 9 million, try to have the best season of your career and get even more money on a long term deal next year when the cap increases.

I guess we're all hoping for a long term deal over the franchise tag at this point, but it would be stupid to accept by Spencer and his agent. He'll just make an extra guaranteed 9 million and then receive an even better long term deal next year. The Cowboys are probably low balling him on a long term deal and they are laughing in his the Cowboys face.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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They're probably trying to work out a reasonable long term deal, but I doubt Spencer and his agent accept it. Why would they? Just take the guaranteed 9 million, try to have the best season of your career and get even more money on a long term deal next year when the cap increases.

I guess we're all hoping for a long term deal over the franchise tag at this point, but it would be stupid to accept by Spencer and his agent. He'll just make an extra guaranteed 9 million and then receive an even better long term deal next year. The Cowboys are probably low balling him on a long term deal and they are laughing in his the Cowboys face.
At this point, I'm hoping for the Franchise tag over a long term deal. I don't want him in our long term plans.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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At this point, I'm hoping for the Franchise tag over a long term deal. I don't want him in our long term plans.
This is where we disagree. We would to use too high of a resource (1st round pick/big money in free agency) to get a marginal upgrade for Anthony Spencer. SOLB's in a 3-4 don't produce big sack numbers, period. The bottom line is that he's a good player for that position. So what if he doesn't have 12 sacks. I'd rather have him stay the player that he is than produce 4 more sacks a year and suddenly become terrible against the run. We need to improve the down three and the secondary. Wasting #14 overall or big money on a free agent that won't be much better than Spencer is pointless and doesn't make your football team any better. Rather keep the established veteran who knows your system.

The key thing here that people forget is, sure an upgrade would be nice, but where would you get it and would it be significant? Who would significantly upgrade the position over Spencer? Lamarr Woodley? Not happening. That's pretty much it. Mario Williams is a 4-3 DE and isn't coming here in the wildest of situations anyway. No one in the draft is a significant upgrade over Spencer if even an upgrade at all. Upshaw and Ingram would probably be a wash if not worse than spencer, and who says they would even be there at 14 and they would have growing pains.

People forget the part about actually getting a better player. There is no one in free agency, and wasting a top 15 pick on a player who isn't going to upgrade your football team is one of the dumbest decisions a team could possibly make. Upshaw/Ingram would be a terrible pick. Vinny Curry in the 2nd round is a different story.

There, i've made my case. There are no significant upgrades that are worth the cost. I think that's a valid point. Spending #14 on a Spencer clone (Upshaw/Ingram) is asinine when you can pick someone like DeCastro, Kirkpatrick, Cox, etc. who have the potential to become pro-bowlers and significantly upgrade the team at a position of need. If we let Spencer go, we will go sideways instead of forward.

Think about that, and now what is your view of the Spencer situation?

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Old 03-05-2012, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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But you keep assuming that there is no upgrade over Spencer at 14 and I would argue that they could get an upgrade in the 2nd round over what Spencer has been giving you.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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How about DeCastro in the first and Vinny Curry or Massoqui in the 2nd?
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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But you keep assuming that there is no upgrade over Spencer at 14 and I would argue that they could get an upgrade in the 2nd round over what Spencer has been giving you.
I don't think you get what I am trying to say. I don't mean to offend you scouting abilities, but have you seen Upshaw and Ingram play? They aren't going to come in here and be much better than Spencer, if any better at all. People expect the guy who replaces Spencer is going to be a DeMarcus Ware type pass rusher because everyone always thinks the next guy is always better. It doesn't work that way. Especially not with the players in this draft. I know none of us think that because we actually know football, but I bet that's what the casual fan thinks.

Now, weigh the option of letting Spencer walk and picking Upshaw/Ingram so we pretty much stay the same at SOLB and upgrade nothing else vs. re-signing/franchising Spencer and picking someone like DeCastro who has a pretty damn good chance of being an all-pro guard for the next decade and forming a great tandem with Tyron Smith for years to come, or even someone like Kirkpatrick who would be in instant huge upgrade over Newman.

The second option is so much better for the Dallas Cowboys it shouldn't even be a discussion. Letting Spencer walk and picking Upshaw/Ingram at 14 doesn't make this team any better, and prevents us from upgrading another position with a good player. I rest my case.

DeCastro in the 1st and Curry/Massaquoi in the 2nd would be fine by me.
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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A tweet from Broaddus:

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Just spoke with a source that watched Tyron Smith in Arizona work out of a left handed stance and looked even better than when he was at ROT
Some positive news at least.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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This is where we disagree. We would to use too high of a resource (1st round pick/big money in free agency) to get a marginal upgrade for Anthony Spencer. SOLB's in a 3-4 don't produce big sack numbers, period. The bottom line is that he's a good player for that position. So what if he doesn't have 12 sacks. I'd rather have him stay the player that he is than produce 4 more sacks a year and suddenly become terrible against the run. We need to improve the down three and the secondary. Wasting #14 overall or big money on a free agent that won't be much better than Spencer is pointless and doesn't make your football team any better. Rather keep the established veteran who knows your system.

The key thing here that people forget is, sure an upgrade would be nice, but where would you get it and would it be significant? Who would significantly upgrade the position over Spencer? Lamarr Woodley? Not happening. That's pretty much it. Mario Williams is a 4-3 DE and isn't coming here in the wildest of situations anyway. No one in the draft is a significant upgrade over Spencer if even an upgrade at all. Upshaw and Ingram would probably be a wash if not worse than spencer, and who says they would even be there at 14 and they would have growing pains.

People forget the part about actually getting a better player. There is no one in free agency, and wasting a top 15 pick on a player who isn't going to upgrade your football team is one of the dumbest decisions a team could possibly make. Upshaw/Ingram would be a terrible pick. Vinny Curry in the 2nd round is a different story.

There, i've made my case. There are no significant upgrades that are worth the cost. I think that's a valid point. Spending #14 on a Spencer clone (Upshaw/Ingram) is asinine when you can pick someone like DeCastro, Kirkpatrick, Cox, etc. who have the potential to become pro-bowlers and significantly upgrade the team at a position of need. If we let Spencer go, we will go sideways instead of forward.

Think about that, and now what is your view of the Spencer situation?
I agree on the sacks part, but Melvin Ingram is a very good player that I wouldn't mind as a Spencer replacement. He's been very good at different positions, and the big thing to remember with Spencer is that part of replacing him is for a change in mentality rather than skill. He isn't the worst guy in the world mentally, but he has made big mistakes such as jumping offsides in crucial moments and grabbing facemasks at stupid times. He's also been accused of mailing it in, and seeing how the defense just collapses at the worst times that certainly could be a possibility. I like Anthony, but he's certainly doesn't seem like a guy that is going to catch fire and drive others around him. Ingram at least could give the team a young talent that is easier to mold into the mentality that Garrett is trying to build while Spencer could already be set in his ways.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I agree on the sacks part, but Melvin Ingram is a very good player that I wouldn't mind as a Spencer replacement. He's been very good at different positions, and the big thing to remember with Spencer is that part of replacing him is for a change in mentality rather than skill. He isn't the worst guy in the world mentally, but he has made big mistakes such as jumping offsides in crucial moments and grabbing facemasks at stupid times. He's also been accused of mailing it in, and seeing how the defense just collapses at the worst times that certainly could be a possibility. I like Anthony, but he's certainly doesn't seem like a guy that is going to catch fire and drive others around him. Ingram at least could give the team a young talent that is easier to mold into the mentality that Garrett is trying to build while Spencer could already be set in his ways.
Yes, I wouldn't mind Ingram either but it's not worth the 14th pick. Ingram's difference to Spencer is marginal. Compare that to picking DeCastro. DeCastro would be replacing Holland/Dockery/Nagy, two of whom are average veterans on there best days over 30 years old, and Nagy who probably shouldn't be in the NFL to be honest. Compare that to DeCastro who has a very good chance of becoming the next Steve Hutchinson. It's not even close at to who would make our team better. I don't get why people can't grasp this concept. I never understood people mocking Upshaw/Ingram to us. Our team wouldn't get better. Isn't that the point of the draft?

Picking Ingram/Upshaw would be such a terrible choice with guys like Kirkpatick, DeCastro, Cox, and hell even Konz, Barron, and Janoris Jenkins on the board. I'd rather reach on Konz or Barron and actually upgrade our team than pick Upshaw or Ingram and get marginally better at best.

By the way, Michael Griffin got franchised so forget about him.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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This OLB debate is giving me a headache. At this point there's no sure winner in FA outside of Mario IMO. Spencer can be serviceable for another 1-2 years possibly. I'm just worried that if he gets paid that he will relax. He's a very lazy player and I could see this happening. I don't see anyone at 14 that really excites me. I'd rather spend the a pick on our OLB in rounds 2-3.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Last off-season the coaching staff and front office were extremely high on our young IL. How do you believe they feel about them now? This is what will really shape our off-season. I'm putting together my off-season plan after 4pm rolls around.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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It's official, Spencer has been tagged. It's on the breaking news banner on the top of NFL.com for the moment.
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